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Coming home? Are you thinking about it?

Suaimhneach

I've been reading some Generation Immigration stuff on the Irish Times (some of it amazing, some of it embarrassing) and found the Migrant Project which includes info on leaving and returning Ireland.

I know there's a huge mix of reasons why people leave, and stay away, but I'd love to talk to people who are thinking about returning and the pros and cons of both.

For me, I think I'll be ok to secure a job but will definitely take a significant salary cut. But, no money in the world could pay me enough to keep me missing out on friends and family, so that's how I have made the decision now to probably come home in a year or so. My challenge is my partner would prefer to stay, because of the higher standard of living.

Would love to hear thoughts from other people considering the same. Maybe if there's enough interest we should get our own forum, haha. Also apologies if this already exists (I searched!) or this is in the wrong forum!

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Suaimhneach

We're going off topic (seriously lads we need our own forum!) but would love to add to this.

I put it down to this, simply. There will always be people who take advantage of, and game, the system. But for that tiny percentage who do, there are thousands who are using it as intended. For temporary support or for education or for the right reasons.

In America, they will step over hungry homeless people to been seen going to a fundraiser for the homeless. Anyone who fails hasnt tried hard enough. College debt is huge. You can go bankrupt if you get sick. Schools are funded by local taxes, so rich areas have great education and poor areas dont. The list of stuff I could put here is huge and terrible and sad.

If all we do in Ireland is provide free education, free health care and free social housing and some dole, then I'll always be proud. Even if it is a shoddy system. Would love to see it rebuilt too, but for the right reasons.

A countries success should be measured by it's poorest person. Maybe that's dreamy and ridiculous, but a safety net for humans doesnt seem like such a horrific thing.

Suaimhneach

Side note: Would you like a returning immigrants forum? I requested one here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96478786#post96478786

Please comment if you'd like one!

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

FURET

Here in the Middle East, I have a friend from Poland. He earns the same as me in UAE terms. But he is able to invest his savings into farmland in Poland because agricultural land prices there are very low compared with Ireland. He can buy a hectare of land for one-third of what it would cost in Ireland. So he's bought up a few hundred acres, on which there are streams and woods, and an old farmhouse, too.

I don't want to buy a farm as such. But it did make me think about buying an old cottage with maybe 10-20 acres or so of unimproved meadowland, full of hedges and wildlife, with a pond or two.... Somewhere in deepest Tipperary or Kerry where I could plant some native trees, have an orchard, grow my own vegetables, and make some hay in the summer. Just for the fun of it. Irish price: More than double what my friend has paid in Poland for far more land.

The conversation made me think about the overall cost of living in Ireland. The agonizing question for me is this: "Is it worth it?" When I look at my friend, he gets so much more for the same money in Poland than I would in Ireland. I don't think Poland compares that poorly to Ireland by the way. It's got a seasonal climate, many forests, beautiful cities, and it is up-and-coming. But the real point is that when you have money, you have choice. So why choose the most expensive choice possible?

So after x number of years abroad, let's say you have amassed 1M euros. You could take that and move to Ireland and pay Irish prices, or you could take it and move somewhere nice where things cost only 70% of what they cost in Ireland, giving you an effective purchasing power of 1.3M euros. That's the price of a very nice house right there (in Ireland) or a small bucolic estate (somewhere else). For me, quality of life is closely - but not exclusively - linked to financial security. And when I think how far my money would get me in Ireland versus some other countries where I might like to live, I'm struggling to see how Ireland is attractive.

The Corinthian

FURET wrote: »

I don't want to buy a farm as such. But it did make me think about buying an old cottage with maybe 10-20 acres or so of unimproved meadowland, full of hedges and wildlife, with a pond or two.... Somewhere in deepest Tipperary or Kerry where I could plant some native trees, have an orchard, grow my own vegetables, and make some hay in the summer. Just for the fun of it. Irish price: More than double what my friend has paid in Poland for far more land.

I wouldn't plan to invest in a retirement home unless I was already north of 55, TBH.

There's a lot of Italians here in Switzerland, many of whom bought retirement homes back home in their thirties, planning on moving back when they retired and take advantage of their Swiss pensions in the cheaper Italian economy. Along the way life happened; many could no longer bring themselves to live in the relative chaos that is Italy and/or they started families, their kids grew up more Swiss than Italian, married Swiss spouses, had kids and have no intention of following their parents south to the 'old country'. As a result, many of those Italians at best spend just a few months in the houses they bought, not wanting to be too far from their children and grandchildren.

My aunt moved to Germany about 40 years ago - in the nineties she bought a place in Dublin with a view to retiring there. By 2004, while she never married or had kids, she realized that other than her siblings she knew no one back 'home' - in fact, Germany had become home at that stage. So she sold her apartment in Ireland and bought one in Munich instead.

Unless you're in the homestretch (over a certain age or planning on returning anyway in the next few years), I really would treat any investment such as buying a property as exactly that; an investment. That it would hold it's value and bring in rent would be far more important than any daydream about planting trees, as there's a good chance you'll never actually live there. You can always sell it and buy what you want, rather than what makes sense, when you're ten years away from retirement or return.

FURET

The more pertinent point from my post is the COL in Ireland.

The Corinthian

FURET wrote: »

The more pertinent point from my post is the COL in Ireland.

Not really as this too can change. Cost of living in Ireland twenty-five years ago was a lot lower, relative to other European countries, than it is now.

What will it be in another twenty-five?

Hence my point that planning too far ahead for these things is generally unwise.

FURET

For some of us, Corinthian, it's probably not too far ahead at all! So issues like this take on a slightly greater immediacy.

The Corinthian

FURET wrote: »

For some of us, Corinthian, it's probably not too far ahead at all! So issues like this take on a slightly greater immediacy.

I agree, and pointed that out in the first line of my first post on this. But you'd be surprised how many thirtysomethings are already buying their 'retirement' homes for when they return to the aul sod.

CelticRambler

FURET wrote: »

I don't want to buy a farm as such. But it did make me think about buying an old cottage with maybe 10-20 acres or so of unimproved meadowland, full of hedges and wildlife, with a pond or two.... Somewhere in deepest Tipperary or Kerry where I could plant some native trees, have an orchard, grow my own vegetables, and make some hay in the summer. Just for the fun of it. Irish price: More than double what my friend has paid in Poland for far more land.

The conversation made me think about the overall cost of living in Ireland. The agonizing question for me is this: "Is it worth it?" When I look at my friend, he gets so much more for the same money in Poland than I would in Ireland. I don't think Poland compares that poorly to Ireland by the way. It's got a seasonal climate, many forests, beautiful cities, and it is up-and-coming. But the real point is that when you have money, you have choice. So why choose the most expensive choice possible?

This is pretty much what we did twelve years ago. I took early "retirement" in my thirties, but also bearing in mind Corinthian's point-of-view. Back then, I was persuaded that investing for a retirement at 55/60/65 was a waste of money, especially as interest rates were expected to remain historically low at around 5% :eek:

So instead, we "retired" to France where we could rear our children at a much lower cost than Ireland or the UK. I did plant a new orchard, a veg plot and caretakered the growth of self-sown oaks, acacias and chestnuts, and ten years on, the value of that continues to increase, to the point where it doesn't really make financial sense for me to go back to work in Ireland or the UK for anything less than six figures p.a. with at least 12wk holiday per year.

Every year, the UK ex-pat pensioners here go through a nail-biting episode wondering if their winter fuel allowance is going to be paid/renewed; I don't have that problem - I can see my winter fuel for the next fifty years growing out the back.

FURET

@ The Corinthian: It's probably overhasty to do so in most cases. My approach to property has always been unconventional - moreso now that I'm a long-term expat. My wife and I will not buy any property until we're ready to settle somewhere. And I personally find the idea of buying a rental property highly unattractive for a host of reasons.

The Corinthian

CelticRambler wrote: »

I was persuaded that investing for a retirement at 55/60/65 was a waste of money

Oh, I certainly don't think that investing for retirement is a waste of money. But doing something like investing in a property you intend to 'live in', in 20 or 30 years time, is.

FURET wrote: »

@ The Corinthian: It's probably overhasty to do so in most cases. My approach to property has always been unconventional - moreso now that I'm a long-term expat. My wife and I will not buy any property until we're ready to settle somewhere. And I personally find the idea of buying a rental property highly unattractive for a host of reasons.

If you feel property is an unattractive investment, then I completely agree with you. My point was one of 'rational' investment as opposed to 'sentimental' investment, that you'll often get.

keithclancy

FURET wrote: »

I don't want to buy a farm as such. But it did make me think about buying an old cottage with maybe 10-20 acres or so of unimproved meadowland, full of hedges and wildlife, with a pond or two.... Somewhere in deepest Tipperary or Kerry where I could plant some native trees, have an orchard, grow my own vegetables, and make some hay in the summer. Just for the fun of it. Irish price: More than double what my friend has paid in Poland for far more land.
.

10-20 acres ..... Can you imagine having to cut the grass

:D:D:D

FURET

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is pretty much what we did twelve years ago. I took early "retirement" in my thirties, but also bearing in mind Corinthian's point-of-view. Back then, I was persuaded that investing for a retirement at 55/60/65 was a waste of money, especially as interest rates were expected to remain historically low at around 5% :eek:

So instead, we "retired" to France where we could rear our children at a much lower cost than Ireland or the UK. I did plant a new orchard, a veg plot and caretakered the growth of self-sown oaks, acacias and chestnuts, and ten years on, the value of that continues to increase, to the point where it doesn't really make financial sense for me to go back to work in Ireland or the UK for anything less than six figures p.a. with at least 12wk holiday per year.

Every year, the UK ex-pat pensioners here go through a nail-biting episode wondering if their winter fuel allowance is going to be paid/renewed; I don't have that problem - I can see my winter fuel for the next fifty years growing out the back.

You're living the dream

What part of France out of curiosity? We'd consider either Spain or France, or pretty much anywhere in southern Europe. Doesn't have to be Ireland.

FURET

The Corinthian wrote: »

Oh, I certainly don't think that investing for retirement is a waste of money. But doing something like investing in a property you intend to 'live in', in 20 or 30 years time, is.

The idea of saving for retirement is very important in almost all situations, e.g. when you're basically resigned to a fate of working until your early 60s in a single country and you need to maximize tax-efficiency, and you do that by locking your money away in a retirement account for x years.

I don't save for "retirement" per se. But I am building towards financial independence at a very aggressive rate. I think the concepts of "retirement" and "financial independence" are different in that they have different connotations and function differently. And for some expats - like me for instance, and possibly CelticRambler - it makes far more sense to aim for the latter rather than the former.

CelticRambler

The Corinthian wrote: »

Oh, I certainly don't think that investing for retirement is a waste of money. But doing something like investing in a property you intend to 'live in', in 20 or 30 years time, is.

If you feel property is an unattractive investment, then I completely agree with you. My point was one of 'rational' investment as opposed to 'sentimental' investment, that you'll often get.

Bad phrasing on my part. I do agree that it's too much of a crystal-ball prediction to sink your disposable income (i.e. what you can afford to contribute to a pension fund) into a place that you think you might want to live in at some point twenty or thirty years in the future.

FURET wrote: »

The idea of saving for retirement is very important in almost all situations, e.g. when you're basically resigned to a fate of working until your early 60s in a single country and you need to maximize tax-efficiency, and you do that by locking your money away in a retirement account for x years.

But putting cash into any other investment is also risky. You can't take it with you to the next world, but you can't be sure either that you're going to be able to get it back in this one, even if you know where you're going to be when you formally "retire".

FURET wrote: »

I don't save for "retirement" per se. But I am building towards financial independence at a very aggressive rate. I think the concepts of "retirement" and "financial independence" are different in that they have different connotations and function differently. And for some expats - like me for instance, and possibly CelticRambler - it makes far more sense to aim for the latter rather than the former.

Yeah, I think we're on a similar wavelength there. The idea of stopping work just because you've hit an arbitrarily decided birthday makes no sense to me, hasn't done for a long time. My decision to move to France (instead of returning to Ireland) was made with that in mind - cold financial reality more than dream

- and even though I've thoroughly reviewed the situation a decade later, now that the family has grown up, it still makes no financial sense for me to return to Ireland.

FURET wrote: »

What part of France out of curiosity?

Bang in the middle. Draw a line from Paris to Toulouse and I'm half-way along it (only a day's drive from Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands or England :cool: )

The Corinthian

FURET wrote: »

I don't save for "retirement" per se. But I am building towards financial independence at a very aggressive rate.

Probably a better way of thinking of it. After all, who knows if retirement, or more correctly pensions, will even exist in any meaningful manner in another few decades.

And honestly, who wants to really 'retire'? I'd rather continue working, at something I enjoy, without the pressure that it has to support me financially. If I 'retired' I suspect I'd be dead within 18 months.

keith16

Am in Switzerland almost a year. Giving serious consideration to heading back home.

One the one hand, the quality of life and range of activities for the kids is incredible and I feel lucky to have been able to get the chance to live here.

On the other hand, I just don't know if I will ever be able to settle. I will always be an "auslander" and you are treated differently.

I'm not particularly enthused about moving back to Ireland when I think of the reasons I left for. It's definitely a first world problem. Ireland and Switzerland are probably both in the top 10 countries on earth for quality of life but I can't stop focusing on the negatives of both countries

The Corinthian

keith16 wrote: »

On the other hand, I just don't know if I will ever be able to settle. I will always be an "auslander" and you are treated differently.

You will find that anywhere outside of where your were born and grew up. And that includes withing a country; here someone from Bern living in Zurich will always be seen as a bit of an outsider too. Just as someone from Limerick will still be hearing stab city jokes in Dublin twenty five years after moving there.

However, it is possible to be accepted in Switzerland - be offered a seat at the Stammtisch, as it were. Hard work at first, but it can be done in my experience. I didn't crack that nut until I was here two years.

FURET

CelticRambler wrote: »

But putting cash into any other investment is also risky. You can't take it with you to the next world, but you can't be sure either that you're going to be able to get it back in this one, even if you know where you're going to be when you formally "retire".

"Risky" is a slippery word. Most people think it means "I might lose it all". To mature investors, it simply means "I might not get my expected growth of 8% per year".

I just buy the whole market using Vanguard ETFs. I put the largest share of my equity holdings into the top 520 European businesses. I put another chunk into the top 500 US businesses. And I put a sliver into around 1000 businesses in emerging markets. I keep my age in high-quality short-term bond ETFs, and I rebalance annually. My total costs are 0.125% per year vs. 1.5% for an Irish Life pension, so I am certain to outperform an Irish pension of that type. Historically, a portfolio like mine has gained 8% per year back-tested 100 years, over 20-year periods. I have no fear whatsoever about losing it all; for that to happen, stock markets globally would need to go to zero, in which case, we'd all have far bigger problems.

So my philosophy is to get my fair share of what the market returns - nothing more. For instance, an investment portfolio of just 1.5M should yield 45K per year in dividends, topped up by a modest withdrawal rate, underscored by a minimalist, debt-free life style, supplemented by occasional short-term work-from-home contracts and a photography business on the side. Summers in Europe, winters in the tropics. Sorted. The vicissitudes of life may of course have something to say about that, but with a well thought out plan and of course a plan B in your pocket, you're unlikely to go too far wrong.

Ruu

Such a great thread! We are also on the road home. Herselfs family are not in the greatest of health and she will have to deal with a complicated will, house, money and several pieces of land. We both have good jobs, she is in with a big university and I am with a large public library (I do okay considering I don't have a degree and don't do well in that type of learning).

Have a few bills in my name in Ireland, how else do you go about establishing residency (easily to start with) again?

FURET

Ruu wrote: »

Have a few bills in my name in Ireland, how else do you go about establishing residency (easily to start with) again?

Like so: http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/circumstances/moving/tax-residence.html#sec1

Your residence status for tax purposes is determined by the number of days that you are present in Ireland in a tax year. You will be resident in Ireland for a tax year in either of the following circumstances:
If you spend 183 days or more in Ireland during a tax year or,

If you spend 280 days or more in Ireland over a period of two consecutive tax years, you will be regarded as resident for the second tax year. For example, if you spend 140 days here in Year 1 and 150 days here in Year 2, you will be resident in Ireland for Year 2.

....

Can I elect to be resident?

Yes. Should you arrive in Ireland in a particular year and you do not spend enough days here to be resident, you may, if you wish, elect to be resident. A condition of making the election is that you must satisfy your local Revenue office, that you will be resident here in the following tax year. You should also be aware that once you have made an election, you cannot withdraw it.

As a resident you will be liable to pay tax on your worldwide income in Ireland. For further details see Booklet Res. 1 Coming to Live in Ireland.

iusedtoknow

FURET wrote: »

I don't save for "retirement" per se. But I am building towards financial independence at a very aggressive rate. I think the concepts of "retirement" and "financial independence" are different in that they have different connotations and function differently. And for some expats - like me for instance, and possibly CelticRambler - it makes far more sense to aim for the latter rather than the former.

Same here, I have lived in 3 countries over the last 10 years and as such will not have a pension pot of particular value anywhere. The 401K here in the US is my most valuable, and I only took that as my company matches 10% of my gross if I save that much. We also have a mixture of vanguard stocks and I was lucky enough to have invested in apple before the split

. We have an apartment in Barcelona that my wife got in an inheritance, which we rent out long term which by the time we paid taxes etc still works out OK for us. The important thing is tbh that we've provided a home for people that needed it in a bind - it isn't an "investment" for us.

But aside from that, we aren't focussed too much on retirement. We know it's a long way off and between my own career and my wife's - it's going to be a bit of a twisty road (in a nice way).

Personally..I'd like to work till mid 60's and then live off the 401k somewhere in Spain (Seville or Malaga) and work a bit here and there. Of course - that is 30 years away yet - have a lot of living to do before then.

The Corinthian

iusedtoknow wrote: »

Personally..I'd like to work till mid 60's and then live off the 401k somewhere in Spain (Seville or Malaga) and work a bit here and there. Of course - that is 30 years away yet - have a lot of living to do before then.

Of course, and sorry for the cynicism, the best way to improve your chances of being able to do that is to never marry.

Alun

iusedtoknow wrote: »

Same here, I have lived in 3 countries over the last 10 years and as such will not have a pension pot of particular value anywhere.

Agreed. We've lived in 4 different countries (so far!) and are in the same kind of boat. A big problem is that often investments taken out while in one country have tax advantages that can only be realised when actually retiring in that country, and it's difficult to find a definitive answer from anyone how that will all work out in practice when we do retire (wherever that may be), which is looming closer as I speak.

iusedtoknow

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course, and sorry for the cynicism, the best way to improve your chances of being able to do that is to never marry.

? - the wife will actually overtake my salary in about 2 years. I've capped (at least here in the US, until I move into upper management). If anything her frugality coupled with the luck we've had in the market in the past couple of years could get us there sooner. Our 401K investments don't mature until we get to 59 1/2.

Her own dream is to be a local family doctor in southern spain and work till her 70's. I'd be happy teaching english a couple of days a week and being able to travel around a bit.

FURET

Yes, I have to say, if you marry someone who is good with money and budgeting and the union is an emotionally happy one, nothing will stop you. I'm similarly lucky - my wife is very frugal and sensible. Millionaire Next Door is a famous study of millionaires in the US - in all cases where a family became first generation wealthy, it was entirely a team effort.

That said, woe betide the man or woman who marries someone who doesn't know how to set a budget or prioritize expenditure - especially if you're an expat without the safety net of social security.

statina

Currently living abroad but will be moving home in the next few months. Primarily for family and friends and putting down roots, where I am feels very transient.

Furet, I am thinking along your lines and am saving really hard to be financially independent.

I am new to the world of investing but have heard a lot about Vanguard. Do you have any suggestions of books for a newbie to read on investing?

FURET

statina wrote: »

Currently living abroad but will be moving home in the next few months. Primarily for family and friends and putting down roots, where I am feels very transient.

Furet, I am thinking along your lines and am saving really hard to be financially independent.

I am new to the world of investing but have heard a lot about Vanguard. Do you have any suggestions of books for a newbie to read on investing?

The Global Expatriate's Guide to Investing by Andrew Hallam. Only book of its type, rock solid advice and sources, and very easy to read and understand. But best to hold off investing on these terms if you're about to repatriate.

murphaph

Yeah you need to be super careful about these things. Lots of people have been caught out by German tax authorities after investing in non German domiciled ETFs. The tax treatment of your investments can vary wildly from country to country.