nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Tenant running Montessori from our house

Dee24

Hi All

We are accidental landlords, and are renting our house out down the country. We are currently renting, and saving for a new house.

The rent we are getting in does not cover the mortgage for our house.

We were visiting friends at the weekend back down where our house is, and found out that one of our friends nephews goes to Montessori - in our old house.

The tenant is running this for 7-8 kids from our house.

Having gone through the rental agreement, under the Residential Tenancies Act, 1st Sept 2004, states "The Tenant shall not carry out in the property any profession or business whatsoever whether for gain or otherwise. Should the Tenant contravene this regulation, this Agreement shall terminate immediately, but without prejudice to any antecedent rights of the Landlord."

Personally, we would just prefer to increase the rent, and make sure that she is correctly insured for running this business. As otherwise she is an OK tenant, she keeps the place impeccably, but can be a bit demanding at times.

She has been there for 1 year and 2months , and renewed the lease in May for a second year. We had wanted to increase the rent in May from €725 to €780 inline with other properties in the area, she declined, so we agreed at €750.

Personally, with her running this business from the premises, I would look to increase the rent to €950 a month.

Would we be within our rights to do this?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

athtrasna

Fortyseven please do not post on this thread again. Accommodation and property is for helpful posts not anti establishment rants

Mod

Greenmachine

Op really you should not be happy about this situation. The house is not equipped for this amount of movement, not to mention all the wear and tear. Has the tenant removed any of the original furniture etc. Are you dealing directly with the tenant or doing it through an agency. Is the tenancy registered with the tenancies board. Assuming you have fulfilling all your obligation, I would be sending your tenant a cease and desist letter. It is common enough for a landlord to ask that a tenant seek permission before they install utilities, like upc or home phone. What if your tenant want to install a jungle gym next or dig up your garden to put in a sandpit will you be okay with this too?

newacc2015

The Residential tenancies act of 2004, doesnt cover Business letting and is for "residential tenancies". Running a Montessori out of a private home is not residential. So I seriously doubt the act applies. You might be able to end your contract immediately between the tenant, as its not your contract was supposed to cover. I would go to a solicitor and discuss it.

Citizen information have the rules on running a child care facility. I seriously doubt they went to the trouble of following the rules of it. So I imagine they are breaking the law. The law seems to state any more than 3 children is a child care facility. Having a 2/3 children in a house can cause so some serious wear and tear. I cant imagine what 8 is doing to it eg crayons on walls, damage to wood work. But the worst thing for me is the ****ing you over on the rent increase

Dont care about ours and their "she is just trying to make a living etc mindset". The tenant is breaking the law, facilitating the black economy and should be evicted. Go to a solicitor or become a member of the IPOA and see what they say

Rantan

Op you are at very serious risk here. I have recent experience of something similar with my tenant subletting to run a small business. As a minimum your house insurer will not cover you as the purpose of use of the house has changed. Doesn't matter is she had insurance. She can't cover your house. This is wrong on SO many levels. You need to stop this now and please do not listen to any advise telling you "be grand" ...it's not. Child has an accident..parents claim against her .good chance she doesn't have proper insuracne...guess who mammy and daddy come after?

CollyFlower

That's a bit cheeky of them! You should just call in and confront them.... As others have said 'it's a residential rental' not a business!

newacc2015

CollyFlower wrote: »

That's a bit cheeky of them! You should just call in and confront them.... As others have said 'it's a residential rental' not a business!

They dont care they have been breaking the law so far. What till confronting them do? They are going to close their Business with the landlord calling around. Put everything in writing and get the solicitors involved.

Mrs OBumble

katydid wrote: »

I doubt if someone who is running a montessori school would be too happy to be described as "minding a few children".

Montessori teachers are qualified people who run an intensive learning programme.

All the op has to go on so far is a statement from a customer that it's 7-8 children, s/he doesn't know if they're all there at once. It may just be childminding on a legal scale, or it may be illegal on all sorts of fronts.

I would start with a phone call to the county childcare committee, to find out if the tenant is registered as a childminder.

I would also keep in mind that if you go in all guns blazing and insist that she stops immediately , then there will be probably 5-6 families in the village who lose their childcare, so cannot go to work, all at once. It could make you very unpopular in the area.

Fix the problem, for sure, but make sure you understand what it is before you act.

5uspect

tayto lover wrote: »

Planning permission??
She's minding a few children.

Sheesh, you asked how it was known the tenant hadn't planning permission. Then you ignore that and go back to, "ah sure it's just a few children".

What if it was a guy scrapping old cars? She's running a business, apparently calling it a School, out of the OP's house potentially putting the OP in a lot of legal hot water.

Bicycle

Take a look at the Early Childhood Ireland website http://www.earlychildhoodireland.ie/work/operating-childcare-service/setting-childcare-service/ This is the umbrella group for childcare providers. The page I've linked you to, gives details of how to set up a childcare service and details of rules and regs.

It would appear that the facility in your house is not compliant.

If necessary, you could give Early Childhood Ireland a buzz on Tuesday.

Dee24

Thanks all for your help. Yeah we are seriously worried now about what she's doing.

Its definitely a case that we're more concerned about the liability falling back on us if a child she is minding had an accident where the house is not correctly insured for business purposes and all the potential health & safety risks etc.

Another question - as I've said previously, we are accidental landlords, we had to relocate from the area to Dublin for work, and it doesnt look likely we will ever get back to live in the house ourselves.

Because the rent we are receiving doesnt even cover our mortgage repayments, and we are also paying rent ourselves - I'm concerned about having to remove her from the house.

When we originally moved back to Dublin, it took us two months to get that house rented out, while paying rent & the mortgage ourselves - which put serious financial pressure on us.

I'm concerned that if we ask her to leave, we have to give her deposit back, and then start the long process again of getting another tenant into the house. We really couldnt afford another 2 or more months where the house is vacant, and we are paying a mortgage, have to pay her deposit back and also pay rent ourselves for that length of time....

Arrrgh

athtrasna

Can you afford the planning permission process and rates bill you may potentially be left with?

CollyFlower

newacc2015 wrote: »

They dont care they have been breaking the law so far. What till confronting them do? They are going to close their Business with the landlord calling around. Put everything in writing and get the solicitors involved.

Why should they get a solicitor involved? They can sort this out themselves.

Gumbo

athtrasna wrote: »

Can you afford the planning permission process and rates bill you may potentially be left with?

As my previous post was deleted, how do we know planning is required?

CollyFlower

kceire wrote: »

As my previous post was deleted, how do we know planning is required?

Permission is required to run a business from your home.

Stheno

CollyFlower wrote: »

Permission is required to run a business from your home.

Not always, and specifically not for childminders. see the FAQ in the attached.

For less than 5 children childminders are exempt from planning, and can get permission for more under certain criteria.

http://www.mccc.ie/docs/Childminders%20Information%20Booklet.pdf

http://www.childminding.ie/childminding/faqs/

salamanca22

Stheno wrote: »

Not always, and specifically not for childminders. see the FAQ in the attached.

For less than 5 children childminders are exempt from planning, and can get permission for more under certain criteria.

http://www.mccc.ie/docs/Childminders%20Information%20Booklet.pdf

http://www.childminding.ie/childminding/faqs/

It's a moot point anyway, the lease specified that no business was to be run from the premises.

Stheno

salamanca22 wrote: »

It's a moot point anyway, the lease specified that no business was to be run from the premises.

For sure, but it's not a point that can be argued.

However tenant has violated the less, so OP can start eviction proceedings.

However OP appears to be more concerned with maintaining the rent, so ideally they need to negotiate with the tenant to be sure the right notifications are in place and the right insurances, which I can't see being possible as a tenant.

First step for OP is to talk to tenant

CollyFlower

From this website...... http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/pre_school_education_and_childcare/health_safety_and_welfare_of_preschool_childcare_services.html

"Pre-school care providers are required to notify the Child
and Family Agency that they are providing services. In
addition, they are required to take all reasonable
measures to safeguard the health, safety and welfare of
pre-school children attending their service. Specifics
about the regulation of pre-school childcare services are
set out in the Child Care (Pre-School Services) (No 2)
Regulations 2006 and the Child Care (Pre-School
Services) (No 2) (Amendment) Regulations 2006 . These
Regulations set down the high standards of health,
safety and welfare that must be in place before such
services can be provided.
Overall, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has
responsibility for these Regulations and for developing
policy in this area. The Child and Family Agency is
required to inspect and regulate pre-school childcare
services and has published a list of tips on choosing a
pre-school."
In addition they should also ask for the owners permission before they set up a business.

Mrs OBumble

My observation is that in this country, the word "Montessori" is tossed about all over the place, with various meanings and very little understanding, even from people who should know better.

Properly, it means a specifically structured educational approach, delivered by a directoress with some very specific training. (And that's training which couldn't even allow the person to be considered to be a qualified early-childhood educator in some countries - but that's a whole different story).

But many people use it to mean pretty much any sort of early-childhood care.

It's quite possible that all the tenant is doing is childminding, and that it's totally legal and covered by insurance that the tenant has in place.

None of us can tell, though, what the real story is. Only the OP can research this, by finding out exactly what the tenant is doing.

Stheno

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

My observation is that in this country, the word "Montessori" is tossed about all over the place, with various meanings and very little understanding, even from people who should know better.
.

Agreed, I apparently went to Montessori in the seventies, my vague memories of it are playschool, nothing more

April 73

Even accidental landlords should not be concerned with how they will repay a tenant's deposit. A deposit should be ring-fenced from your own finances & should always be available to be repaid at the correct time & assuming everything is in order when the tenants leave.

Surely the easiest thing to do is arrange to meet the tenant & find out exactly what is going on instead of relying on hearsay?

jimd2

Hi Dee, we have some property rented though we would not be termed as professional landlords, sort of managing it for the family.

If I heard that this was happening in our property I would be fuming that the tenant mentioned nothing and went against the lease in such a blatant way. All the talk about legalities and whether the tenant has the right to do this is a bit peripheral. as others have said this will impact on the insurance and wear and tear as well as it is a form of business and is in contradiction of the lease. On top of that the tenant had an opportunity to clarify the situation during the rent negotiation and failed to do so.

I would be inclined to make direct contact with the tenant if you are a hands on landlord. However, if an agency is managing the direct dealings with the tenant then get on to them asap and inform them that you are getting advice on your terminating the lease. Give the tenant 24 hours to come back with an explanation. If you decide to terminate the lease then you don't need to meet the tenant and it can be handled through agency but if you feel that you would prefer to facilitate them at increased rent then you can meet them. They need to cease immediately in the meantime though that might not be an issue considering it is August.

Whatever you decide to do you need to find out exactly what yours and their legal obligations are and implement before resuming if that is what ye decide.

hdowney

Dee24 wrote: »

I'm concerned that if we ask her to leave, we have to give her deposit back, and then start the long process again of getting another tenant into the house. We really couldnt afford another 2 or more months where the house is vacant, and we are paying a mortgage, have to pay her deposit back and also pay rent ourselves for that length of time....

Arrrgh

April 73 wrote: »

Even accidental landlords should not be concerned with how they will repay a tenant's deposit. A deposit should be ring-fenced from your own finances & should always be available to be repaid at the correct time & assuming everything is in order when the tenants leave.

^ This. You should have no concern that the return of her deposit will impact on your finances as you should still have her deposit from when she initially paid it. It was NEVER yours to spend and should have been kept seperate to your money to be returned to the tenant on her departure from the house (assuming no damage obviously). It sounds like you spent her deposit when you got it. In that case you are unlikely to get much sympathy on here if you whine hardship in paying it back.

Certainly you need to get clarification on just what type of business she is running from the rental and if she is above board with all insurances etc. You can then decide how best to proceed from there with all the information to hand.

scrimshanker

So, my reading of the situation is that you don't want her gone, but you're peeved that she's making money from your asset without your consent whilst paying only a residential rent, and now you're also worried about any liability she has opened you up to...

So why not find out exactly what is going on and then regularise the situation? You both have a shared interest here. She has roots put down and is part of the community, you have left and can't afford to have the place vacant..

What you could look into is having her sign a long lease with extra deposit, and apply for any permission that may be needed. Any costs of modifications to be borne by the tenant with agreement to return to the original state (at tenants expense) when the tenant leaves. Proof of all required insurance, payment of rates and first aid qualifications etc to be furnished.

It's just a suggestion and you would need to work out the details for yourself (legal advice wouldn't go astray!) but I can't see an adversarial approach doing you any favours here. Negotiate and regularise the situation if required, but evicting the tenant or killing the income that may well be paying the rent isn't going to benefit anyone.

The_Conductor

tayto lover wrote: »

But how do you know she hasn't all those things?
AND it was the OP who suggested rising the rent so he obviously didn't seem too worried even if she hadn't.

She can't have these items- because it would have necessitated a change of use permission by the council- which the owner of the property would have had to agree to. It is no longer solely a residence- it would now require a commercial designation.

Babysmurf

The most immediate problem here is the planning permission issue. If she doesn't have planning then there is an illegal business running in your house.

All matters of money are secondary to breaking the law.

The_Conductor

Dee24 wrote: »

Thanks all for your help. Yeah we are seriously worried now about what she's doing.

Its definitely a case that we're more concerned about the liability falling back on us if a child she is minding had an accident where the house is not correctly insured for business purposes and all the potential health & safety risks etc.

Another question - as I've said previously, we are accidental landlords, we had to relocate from the area to Dublin for work, and it doesnt look likely we will ever get back to live in the house ourselves.

Because the rent we are receiving doesnt even cover our mortgage repayments, and we are also paying rent ourselves - I'm concerned about having to remove her from the house.

When we originally moved back to Dublin, it took us two months to get that house rented out, while paying rent & the mortgage ourselves - which put serious financial pressure on us.

I'm concerned that if we ask her to leave, we have to give her deposit back, and then start the long process again of getting another tenant into the house. We really couldnt afford another 2 or more months where the house is vacant, and we are paying a mortgage, have to pay her deposit back and also pay rent ourselves for that length of time....

Arrrgh

If you want her to continue living there- you need her to apply for, and obtain, all the requisite permissions to run the business. This includes- but is not limited to- the aforementioned insurance, change of use permission, recruitment of qualified and cleared staff (staff who work with children require Garda clearance), proper training for staff and HSE inspection etc.

Your rental income- cannot be simply set against the mortgage- it is taxable income- aka- just because it doesn't cover the mortgage- and you are paying rent elsewhere yourself- means nada- nothing whatsoever- it is still taxable income- and must be declared and properly accounted for. In Ireland you cannot offset the rent paid on one residence with the rental income of a different residence. Its not fair- but its the rules.

If you cannot afford to have the residence vacant for a month or two at any time- you cannot afford to be landlords. If you have negative equity and can't sell- you're caught between a rock and a hard place.

Check with the PRTB- but it is my belief that by opening a business on the premises- regardless of whether she still lives there, or not, the property is no longer covered under the 2004 RTA- and instead any rights or entitlements are solely those afforded the tenant in their lease (you need to check this out- please don't just take my word on it).

It is almost prohibitively expensive to legitimately run a creche/montessori in this country- and if the lady has 7-8 children- depending on their age (there are different supervision ratios which vary depending on the age of the children)- she may need multiple staff to assist her.

To all the naysayers suggesting she is just making a few bob to pay the mortgage- you have received fair and just warning from moderators on this thread- that this is not the case. Childminding in Ireland is subject to significant regulation. If the 'tenant' fails in their regulatory obligations- or indeed their insurance obligations- it could potentially come back to bite the property owner (to say nothing of the devastation that any parent who entrusted children to the care of this tenant may undergo, should anything happen their children).

This is not a topic that I am happy to allow further discussion on in this thread- as potentially dangerous posts have been repeatedly posted by several individuals here. By dangerous- I do not mean just towards the OP- the owner of the property- I mean also towards the tenant, the children under her care- and the wider community where the service is being offered.

Thread closed.