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Front-end dev - am I underpaid?

Kamyl

Hi folks,

Short summary,

- I moved to Ireland more than 3 yrs ago, with 3 yrs experience as Front-end dev (mainly XHTML, CSS, Jquery)
- I have 6 years' experience now
- I have a very good knowledge of Javascript(native), typescript and lots of libraries and frameworks.
- I recently (less than 6 months ago) started to use nodejs, AngularJs and reactJs
- I'm fluent in english - but as you probably see - I'm not as good as native speakers. Anyway it's good enough to attend technical meetups etc.

What I do
- 75% - work with JSON API and AJAX (ie REST) in javacript
- 25% bug fixes and updates to legacy code

Technology:
- 90% Javascript/TypeScript
- 10% C# (asp.net mvc)

Some projects:
- mobile presentation layer of existing system
- integration with third parties (ie google maps, CRM's, helpdesks)
- chrome extensions
- validation framework (js)
- nodejs monitoring bot
- few internal angularjs apps (with bootstrap)

(of course there's a lot more, but I dont want to write a novel)

My problem:

My salary is 25k only.

Why is this a problem?
- I get lots of job offers with 35k-60k salaries
- I don't think I'm js guru, but I'm neither junior front-end dev anymore.
- I can't even find a job offers with a salary lower than 30k

My question:
Is this just my arrogance or I'm a way underpaid?

Thanks

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L.Jenkins

Greyian wrote: »

Out of interest, did you do this during a performance review (or something similar), or just approach your manager/superior and say you wanted a pay increase?

We're not subject to reviews where I work, which is odd. I did however straight out asked for an increase and I got it.

c_man

Nice one Kamyl!

punk_one82

Kamyl wrote: »

Hi guys.

This is me - OP.

Six months have passed. I spent this time developing my skills, growing my portfolio and making a little bit of PR.

As a consequence, my salary hasincreased. I did few interviews. All the companies I talked to, were happy with me and I finally accepted a job offer for... 70k / year.

This is nearly 3x times more than I was making 6 months ago.

Thanks for encouraging me. I'm not sure it this would happen without you guys.

Regards,
Kamyl

Good to see you left and are way above where you were in terms of pay. I'm not too sure about frontend pay in Ireland but I'd imagine you're on more than the average? Congrats!

Greyian

Kamyl wrote: »

Hi guys.

This is me - OP.

Six months have passed. I spent this time developing my skills, growing my portfolio and making a little bit of PR.

As a consequence, my salary hasincreased. I did few interviews. All the companies I talked to, were happy with me and I finally accepted a job offer for... 70k / year.

This is nearly 3x times more than I was making 6 months ago.

Thanks for encouraging me. I'm not sure it this would happen without you guys.

Regards,
Kamyl

Congratulations, just shows what you can get when you're worth it and willing to fight for it.

Itzy wrote: »

I'll be aiming to negotiate myself a better deal when I look for a new role myself. Asked for a pay increase during the year and got it.

Out of interest, did you do this during a performance review (or something similar), or just approach your manager/superior and say you wanted a pay increase?

L.Jenkins

I'll be aiming to negotiate myself a better deal when I look for a new role myself. Asked for a pay increase during the year and got it.

CaoimH_in

The kick up the arse you needed! Back yourself in future man!

Kamyl

Hi guys.

This is me - OP.

Six months have passed. I spent this time developing my skills, growing my portfolio and making a little bit of PR.

As a consequence, my salary hasincreased. I did few interviews. All the companies I talked to, were happy with me and I finally accepted a job offer for... 70k / year.

This is nearly 3x times more than I was making 6 months ago.

Thanks for encouraging me. I'm not sure it this would happen without you guys.

Regards,
Kamyl

dazberry

red_ice wrote: »

Have you thought about going along to the NDRC / Wayra to join a startup team and be lead developer / CTO on a project? You would match your current salary, could outsource your skill set to other teams in need of developers and carve yourself a corner of the Irish dev scene. The NDRC worked wonders for my professional career, I wasnt even well known in the place.

The problem with this is are you putting the cart before the horse? I got involved in a post-startup after the CTO had left. The guy is a serial CTO, but armed with a PhD he seemed to managed to skip getting all that much hands on experience. The decisions he enforced very much demonstrated this...

D.

The Corinthian

red_ice wrote: »

Well the three founding members of the team I was on in the NDRC were CEO / CMO / CTO. So I'm confident you can yes. It is your company after all.

I think you're confusing the role of CTO with someone who happens to be the CTO but is fulfilling another role, such as lead developer, on a project. A CTO is a 'C-Level' title in a company and is not associated with any specific project.

So when you suggested someone is a "lead developer / CTO on a project", they can't be the CTO on a project any more than they can be the Chief Financial Officer (CFO) on it. That's just silly.

red_ice

Well the three founding members of the team I was on in the NDRC were CEO / CMO / CTO. So I'm confident you can yes. It is your company after all.

Have you heard otherwise about seniority / rank / titles within these places?

The Corinthian

red_ice wrote: »

Have you thought about going along to the NDRC / Wayra to join a startup team and be lead developer / CTO on a project?

One can be a CTO on a project now?

red_ice

I haven't read the previous posts, I'm just in awe at OP and had to put my point of view on this.

I'll be blunt. A lot of people higher foreigners because they will work for less and are more likely to accept what payment they can get. I've seen it a million times. I know of 2 agencies who have no developers, and outsource all their work to eastern European developers for next to nothing, and the work they get back is phenomenal. Absolutely gorgeous code.

25k for someone of your skill set is laughable. You should be upwards of 50k. Realistically, anyone in your shoes should expect 35k-40k as a front end developer in an agency. However, agencies can pick and choose from a bundle of CVs a mile high and will always find compromise with someone willing to work for less that shows potential. This is where you will struggle. You've got a skill set, and are in need of a more senior position, meaning you don't have the luxury of working your way up the company like a junior / intern would without settling for a wage like you're on now.

You should consider relocating to somewhere that has a single application to maintain, something that you can own from day 1 and make your own over time. Your value to a company will be worth more than the 40k intro salary you started off with. I've seen people take 15% pay rises within their first year of a company just because they own that application.

Have you thought about going along to the NDRC / Wayra to join a startup team and be lead developer / CTO on a project? You would match your current salary, could outsource your skill set to other teams in need of developers and carve yourself a corner of the Irish dev scene. The NDRC worked wonders for my professional career, I wasnt even well known in the place.

L.Jenkins

Trojan wrote: »

Some awesome "tough love" on this thread

It's the only way to be. I know I'm getting stitched up and this is the kind of advice you'll more than likely never get from a recruiter or agent.

carlmango11

What the actual f**k. That would be a sh*t salary if you were fresh out of college and were half-monkey.

The interns in my place are almost on that.

Trojan

Some awesome "tough love" on this thread

chrislad

As a graduate with zero experience, even on co-op, I was offered more than 25k, with a rise coming next month and I still don't have a years experience. I'm doing Java with Spring and ExtJS Javascript. I'm not based in Dublin either. I'd certainly be asking questions about that level of pay, as I'd consider that on the low end for a graduate.

conorcan2

srsly78 wrote: »

That would be fine if the overseas person was working remotely. But if they live here they have to pay Irish cost for rent and food etc, shouldn't take them long to figure out they are being screwed.

Yes, good point.

I have an Irish friend who is earning around the same as the OP (in civil service) and is paying mortgage, food etc and still has cash for occasional luxuries. If he made sacrifices in respect to his living arrangements then I think he could save more money...

The average year salary in India for a developer is around 3,365 euros.
http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary
(Admittedly, I don't know how accurate that source is!)

srsly78

That would be fine if the overseas person was working remotely. But if they live here they have to pay Irish cost for rent and food etc, shouldn't take them long to figure out they are being screwed.

conorcan2

It's possible that if you're not from the European Union, or from a country within the European Union with a lower average salary rate then your employer is using your countries average salary as a base rate. Their decision to employee you at a lower rate was a business decision - instead of employing a local at X salary, we'll employ somebody from overseas at Y.

I'm not arguing that it's fair, or that you should accept it, but maybe that's the context for the lower salary?

jobless

cant believe you are only getting paid 25k for your experience level.... you need to value yourself more and get what you are worth...

Im guilty of staying in a job i was comfortable in for more than 10 years and am now struggling to change it... as others said the mistake i made is hanging around too long...
you would certainly climb up the salary ladder quickly if you moved.... just dont tell them you were on 25k previously

MaggotBrain

Unless you believe otherwise I'd say the agency is screwing you, pocketing what you should be making. You have the right attitude though, no point in throwing the toys out of the pram. Ireland is too small to be burning bridges over your own mistakes.

Middle men only look out for themselves.

Find a new agency, play hard ball and do it soon as you are being screwed royally.

L.Jenkins

The Corinthian wrote: »

[1] There is one potential excuse in fairness. If you've been unlucky in your last few positions/roles and they were all short, then you may need to grin and bare the stopgap longer than you'd wish, otherwise your CV is not going to look nice at all.

You're right, I shouldn't make excuses for myself and that's exactly what has happened in the last year. Too many roles here, there and everywhere, but I am looking for something permanent, that pays better.

The Corinthian

Itzy wrote: »

People do stupid things in desperation.

Everyone has been in a situation whereby their backs are against the wall and they'll take what's available in the short term. However, the keyword is short - if you procrastinate and you're still doing the stupid thing a year or more down the line, then you've no excuse [1].

I'm considering my next move as I'm looking around either way.

Mind that no one hands you a gold watch while you're still considering.

[1] There is one potential excuse in fairness. If you've been unlucky in your last few positions/roles and they were all short, then you may need to grin and bare the stopgap longer than you'd wish, otherwise your CV is not going to look nice at all.

Elessar

You're definitely worth more Itzy. Even I know that and I'm not a developer.

OP, the same to you. I'm in support and earning more than you. I know how difficult it is when you've been in a job a while, everything gets comfortable and change seems hard. Start looking around and get paid what you're worth!

L.Jenkins

moycullen14 wrote: »

Of course, I'm assuming the client is smarter than you. Given you are working for 180 euro a day, that's a fair assumption, I'm afraid.

People do stupid things in desperation. I'm considering my next move as I'm looking around either way.

Vurnon San Benito

Francie Barrett wrote: »

To give you some perspective, we just offered 30k a year to a graduate in Galway.

Hiring any more around the Galway area? :pac:

moycullen14

Itzy wrote: »

I'm looking around at the moment as my manager doesn't know if she can extend my contract beyond the end of this month. If I'm fortunate enough to get an extension, I'll most definitely be discussing a significant pay increase, otherwise, my next employer won't get away with stitching me up.

Aaaargh! Will you listen to yourself? Fortunate to be allowed to be screwed by your client? By your own admission, this is costing you 800 euro a week or 40K a year. For God sake, will you man up, tell the client to GTFO and leave? No discussion, no debate.

In any case, as you are about to find out chronic low-balling cannot be rectified. If the client agrees then they are tacitly admitting that they screwed you OR that 100% pay increases are possible. Neither scenario works for them.

Of course, I'm assuming the client is smarter than you. Given you are working for 180 euro a day, that's a fair assumption, I'm afraid.

The Corinthian

Itzy wrote: »

I'm looking around at the moment as my manager doesn't know if she can extend my contract beyond the end of this month. If I'm fortunate enough to get an extension, I'll most definitely be discussing a significant pay increase, otherwise, my next employer won't get away with stitching me up.

Actually, you're about to get stitched up again.

You: "Did I get the extension?"
Them: "I'm happy to say yes."
You: "Great. I want an increase on my rate."
Them: "Oh. Sorry, you got an extension based on your current rate..."

L.Jenkins

I'm looking around at the moment as my manager doesn't know if she can extend my contract beyond the end of this month. If I'm fortunate enough to get an extension, I'll most definitely be discussing a significant pay increase, otherwise, my next employer won't get away with stitching me up.

Moneymaker

They are absolutely fleecing you. And probably having a good laugh at it.

Have some respect for yourself and BE AWARE of what you are worth.

Any company that refuses to pay you what you are worth, is not a company worth working for.

Speak to the powers that be and say you feel like you are worth more and would like a raise to a competitive salary. You absolutely must be prepared to walk. We're talking about being paid about double what you are right now. That is life changing money so you must pursue it with everything you've got.

Good luck.