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Meath GAA discussion thread

Hammer Archer

Well Galway has a thread, Mayo has one, even Cavan has one so why not us?

Two one point defeats in a row means we're back into relegation trouble especially if we lose to Derry next week. Having said that, beat Derry next week and promotion is still a (remote) possibility. Joe Sheridan leaving for the States certainly isn't going to help.
Thought the performance yesterday was easily the worst of the league. Our away form is killing us still.

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HighKing33

I'd agree with much of that Meath Centre Forward but the manner of the capitulations against Laois and Westmeath still bother me, also the performance against Roscommon which was very flat but there were signs of improvement albeit small ones. Also, the horrendous injury list over the last two years (managing a very different squad than year one), have to be taken into account.

Some consistency may not be a bad thing in light of that but whoever comes in to replace Sean Kelly will have to be a serious footballing man. That in itself will be a difficult task. Consider the impact that Donie Buckley has had on Mayo. If Mick gets that call right than we could be going places.

HighKing33

Sean Boylan on Newstalk this week, “I think it's nice to see management trying to develop some sort of a positive game because there is so much negativity out there. I just love to see: have a cut at it, don't be afraid, let's have a little bit of risk and so on.

“I know there's times you pay the price for it but it's nice to see it happen."

I'd strongly echo that sentiment. We didn't do enough of it in the league, that would be the only caveat I'd attach to that statement but having watched the Ulster final there is no way I would want to see Meath going out onto a pitch and playing that kind of football under a new manager.

iDave

Westmeath score 7 points in championship football. They managed that in about 5 mins against us

Sonny678

Westmeaths loss yesterday makes the defeat by Meath five times worse. Could change allot of clubs mind in manager vote, this doesn’t look as straightforward as did a week ago when c board asked to for another two years for this management, O’Dowd could be under serious pressure now

Meath Centre Forward

It's ridiculous to take such a literal interpretation of the results. Every game is different - where does Kildare's hammering of Cork leave Kerry?

We all know Meath fell asunder completely in the second half against Westmeath. It was one serious collapse. No subsequent result could ever change how that game should be analyzed from a Meath perspective. Serious limitations were blatantly exposed.

The capitulations against Laois and Westmeath worry me too HighKing, in fact a lot of Meath's second half performances worry me. There is so much room for improvement.

I know a lot of people are calling for Micko's head and you can't defend some of the results and some of the performances but you have to try and keep some bit of perspective on it. There were loads of positive signs hidden beneath the myriad of injuries and dare I say it - misfortune. Some of the decisions the management have made have baffled me too but I am confident when I say they are as genuine as Meath people as you will find in the county and are there for the right reasons. This is an important factor in my opinion because of the uncertainty of a replacement. Do we want another manager from outside the county in it for the short-term? That would worry me more.

By the way I have never been in favour of sacking Meath management teams. I was amazed when O'Brien was voted and annoyed also when Banty was basically forced out. I was totally in favour of giving both a little longer. Coyle, O'Brien, Banty, I think losing all of them actually set us back and if you ask me the teams each managed ended up worse than the last.

I cannot see how changing the manager will benefit us at all especially when the last 5 management changes have all made us a worse team.

HighKing33

It's going to be a tough call. The barstool consensus is that any club manager in the county would do a better job than Mick O'Dowd but how much that will count for in a vote is hard to know. My impression of O'Dowd and Kelly was that they were just too nice for this level but that's a very superficial take on things. He needs to get the blend right in the backroom team if he stays on.

I didn't rate O'Brien and Banty was found out in my opinion so I wasn't sorry to see them go but with a young manager and a young team maybe the situation is a little different. It's in the hands of the gods. I'd agree with much of the sentiment expressed by Meath Centre Forward and Sean Boylan in his newstalk interview - principles and passion are important. It's in the hands of the gods. We only want what's best for Meath football. Sin e.

Huntergonzo

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

It's ridiculous to take such a literal interpretation of the results. Every game is different - where does Kildare's hammering of Cork leave Kerry?

We all know Meath fell asunder completely in the second half against Westmeath. It was one serious collapse. No subsequent result could ever change how that game should be analyzed from a Meath perspective. Serious limitations were blatantly exposed.

The capitulations against Laois and Westmeath worry me too HighKing, in fact a lot of Meath's second half performances worry me. There is so much room for improvement.

I know a lot of people are calling for Micko's head and you can't defend some of the results and some of the performances but you have to try and keep some bit of perspective on it. There were loads of positive signs hidden beneath the myriad of injuries and dare I say it - misfortune. Some of the decisions the management have made have baffled me too but I am confident when I say they are as genuine as Meath people as you will find in the county and are there for the right reasons. This is an important factor in my opinion because of the uncertainty of a replacement. Do we want another manager from outside the county in it for the short-term? That would worry me more.

By the way I have never been in favour of sacking Meath management teams. I was amazed when O'Brien was voted and annoyed also when Banty was basically forced out. I was totally in favour of giving both a little longer. Coyle, O'Brien, Banty, I think losing all of them actually set us back and if you ask me the teams each managed ended up worse than the last.

I cannot see how changing the manager will benefit us at all especially when the last 5 management changes have all made us a worse team.

I was in favour of giving O'Dowd time and backed right up until we exited this year's championship, although the collapse against Westmeath left me with serious reservations, but I've always said we need stability and I know changing managers on a regular basis isn't going to help us. However I haven't seen the same amount of 'hidden positive signs' you saw and I certainly will not accept "misfortune" as a an excuse, because that's all it is = an excuse.

I can't see much of an argument for sticking with MOD, apart from a promising looking year in 2013 we've been declining ever since so I think sticking with O'Dowd is backing the wrong horse, it's sticking with the same manager just for the sake of not getting a new one, but it's not really stability. O'Brien should certainly have gotten a few more years, voting him out was a crazy decision but I could fully understand if the clubs vote out MOD, if we're going to give a manager 4 or 5 years, then it has to be someone who is bringing us forward in the medium term, not back!

Here's a stat for you, in our 11 championship games under O'Dowd we've outscored the opposition in the last 20mins on only 3 occasions (v Wicklow 13, Wexford 13 & Carlow 14), in Banty's 10 championship games we outscored the opposition in the last 20 mins on 7 occasions. Now that shows a shocking lack of physical and mental strength on our behalf and while the players must take their share of the blame for that the buck stops at the manager, Mick O'Dowd.

Listen on a personal level I like Mick (although I'm not a fan of the excuses), he seems like a very nice man, I know he has Meath's best interests at heart, I'm not questioning that and if he continues on and becomes a success then great, I'd genuinely be delighted to be wrong. But I just can't see him turning things around, 3 years into his term and we're getting consistently worse every year, that's unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Meath Centre Forward

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I was in favour of giving O'Dowd time and backed right up until we exited this year's championship, although the collapse against Westmeath left me with serious reservations, but I've always said we need stability and I know changing managers on a regular basis isn't going to help us. However I haven't seen the same amount of 'hidden positive signs' you saw and I certainly will not accept "misfortune" as a an excuse, because that's all it is = an excuse.

I can't see much of an argument for sticking with MOD, apart from a promising looking year in 2013 we've been declining ever since so I think sticking with O'Dowd is backing the wrong horse, it's sticking with the same manager just for the sake of not getting a new one, but it's not really stability. O'Brien should certainly have gotten a few more years, voting him out was a crazy decision but I could fully understand if the clubs vote out MOD, if we're going to give a manager 4 or 5 years, then it has to be someone who is bringing us forward in the medium term, not back!

Here's a stat for you, in our 11 championship games under O'Dowd we've outscored the opposition in the last 20mins on only 3 occasions (v Wicklow 13, Wexford 13 & Carlow 14), in Banty's 10 championship games we outscored the opposition in the last 20 mins on 7 occasions. Now that shows a shocking lack of physical and mental strength on our behalf and while the players must take their share of the blame for that the buck stops at the manager, Mick O'Dowd.

Listen on a personal level I like Mick (although I'm not a fan of the excuses), he seems like a very nice man, I know he has Meath's best interests at heart, I'm not questioning that and if he continues on and becomes a success then great, I'd genuinely be delighted to be wrong. But I just can't see him turning things around, 3 years into his term and we're getting consistently worse every year, that's unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Are we getting consistently worse though? The League results and tables would not support this. We have at the very least maintained a consistency in the League which hasn't been shown by a Meath team in about 15 years.

Fair enough the championship unraveled spectacularly but call it excuses, I call it allowances, we were missing a lot of injured players or calling on players barely back from injury. Never mind the loss of missing some key men, it surely had an affect on the morale of a young team, i.e. players surely asking themselves we're working hard here and all we're getting is injury after injury.

Micko's reign could ultimately be decided by that Westmeath second half. That's essentially what it comes down to. The manner of the loss to a team who'd never beaten Meath is a better one to swallow for a lot of Meath people. That's why I would try to keep it in perspective. It was shocking how it unfolded but even the first half of that game and the Tyrone game offered many encouraging signs.

Another thing - Meath have invested a lot in the League and I think it's left them a bit leggy come championship. I would regard it as no co-incidence that the last two championships have been disappointing after tough League campaigns. I don't think Meath have the panel or the options to attack both as they'd like.

rpurfield

I don't think there is anyone in the county putting their hand up for the job anyway, and is there anyone of a sufficient calibre from outside available? Change for the sake of change isn't a good idea, it should only be if the replacement is a definite improvement on MOD. I honestly don't think there is anyone available at the moment that fits the bill

Huntergonzo

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

Are we getting consistently worse though? The League results and tables would not support this. We have at the very least maintained a consistency in the League which hasn't been shown by a Meath team in about 15 years.

Fair enough the championship unraveled spectacularly but call it excuses, I call it allowances, we were missing a lot of injured players or calling on players barely back from injury. Never mind the loss of missing some key men, it surely had an affect on the morale of a young team, i.e. players surely asking themselves we're working hard here and all we're getting is injury after injury.

Micko's reign could ultimately be decided by that Westmeath second half. That's essentially what it comes down to. The manner of the loss to a team who'd never beaten Meath is a better one to swallow for a lot of Meath people. That's why I would try to keep it in perspective. It was shocking how it unfolded but even the first half of that game and the Tyrone game offered many encouraging signs.

Another thing - Meath have invested a lot in the League and I think it's left them a bit leggy come championship. I would regard it as no co-incidence that the last two championships have been disappointing after tough League campaigns. I don't think Meath have the panel or the options to attack both as they'd like.

I think the League results show that we've stagnated at best, but considering this year's Division 2 was weaker than last year's I think we have gone back a bit. In fairness we threw away promotion against Laois, by once again finishing a game poorly and I think blaming a poor championship on a tough League (it wasn't especially tough anyway) is nonsense to be honest. The league is same for us as it is for everybody else, we're starting to invest in a worrying level of excuses in Meath and that truly is the road to nowhere.

Now I know the 1st half against Westmeath was very encouraging but that was the only real good half of football we played in the entire championship, we were poor throughout against Wicklow and against Tyrone we played decent in patches but no better. I know injuries to important players don't help but every team has their injury worries and as Boylan himself said on Newstalk the other day, injuries should be seen as opportunities for other lads, so again I don't accept the injury excuse.

My biggest issue with this Meath setup is that after 3 years, we're still finishing many games very poorly and it's killing us. Again what do you think of the fact that in championship football we've only outscored our opponents in the last 20mins on 3 occasions out of 11 under MOD? (v Wicklow 2013, v Wexford 2013 & v Carlow 2014).

Further stats on that: in those last 20mins we've scored 2-37 and conceded 6-48 that's a difference of -23pts. Also we've never scored a goal in the last 20mins of a tight championship game but we have conceded 5!

Ps, I know stats don't tell the full story but they do give you a good indication of what's going on.

Huntergonzo

rpurfield wrote: »

I don't think there is anyone in the county putting their hand up for the job anyway, and is there anyone of a sufficient calibre from outside available? Change for the sake of change isn't a good idea, it should only be if the replacement is a definite improvement on MOD. I honestly don't think there is anyone available at the moment that fits the bill

You're right change for the sake of change isn't a good idea, but equally no change for the sake of no change isn't a good idea either.

Rock Lesnar

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

I don't think Meath have the panel or the options to attack both as they'd like.

Sorry but i just dont believe this, if Monaghan and Fermanagh can make it to the quarter finals, with probably a smaller pool of players to select from, then we should be more then capable of doing the same

Monaghan in particular have gone from Div.3 a couple of years ago to 3rd in Div.1 this year along with 2 ulster championships, what have we done in that time, thats worth talking about, sure, they won an ulster minor title in as well but theres no guarantee that will translate to senior success to.

I feel somebody like Geraghty who has done it all, along with maybe more experienced selectors, say EOB or Eamonn Barry even, with a more positive tactical approach would benefit the players, in saying that, i'm fairly confident that MOD will get the extra year he wants

iDave

As much as I love GG I don't think he's the man for it.
Too temperamental and would fall out with players.

Hammer Archer

I'd agree with that Dave. I think he reminds me of a less insane Paulo di Canio. I'd say any loss would result in him shifting blame from himself to others.

At this stage, I've just decided to let whatever happens happen with regards to MOD. My opinion on him staying or going seems to change by the day.

Anyone at the cup finals in Navan on Saturday? Sounded like some Corn na Boinne final between Nobber and Castletown. 1-25 to 1-23 it finished in favour of Nobber after extra time.

RugbyLover123

I'd see Geraghty's managerial approach towards players more along the lines of Roy Keane than DiCanio

paul0103

Does anybody else feel that the format of our club football championship may be one of the factors contributing to our recent poor form?

Looking at the teams that are left in the All-Ireland, from what I can gather most have a club championship that is either knock out or knock out with a back door. Mayo have a group system, but with groups of 4. The idea that you can lose two games (and maybe even throw in a draw too) and still get to a championship final is a little baffling. I think if we had a championship where you only got one second chance it would really improve our club standard. If we had young players used to this sort of intense structure it would surely be a benefit if they were called into a county panel. Also, it could hopefully mean that championship wouldn't drag on for the best part of 6 months.

Just an idea, but I really think we need to change the format of 3 teams qualifying for knock out stages out of groups of 6.

Pat_custard

Yea, sean boylan was on about this as well actually. He was saying it's taken the competitiveness out of the championship in his podcast with Newstalk.

Hibbeler

Lads the current championship format is actually quite similar to what we had in the 90's, Ok only two teams from a group progressed in those days but still fairly similar

Someone actually went to the effort of making wikipedia articles for the last 20 years of Meath SFC campaigns (Fair play!). So ye can have a look for yourselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Meath_Senior_Football_Championship

However around 2002/2003 there was a change and they went to having 2 groups of 8 with the top 4 progressing. This must've been what Boylan was referring to in the podcast. It was madness! Though this format lasted until 2006 from what I can gather.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Meath_Senior_Football_Championship

Obviously a few years ago we had the increase to 18 clubs in each of the SFC and IFC from 16 which I feel certainly hasn't helped especially in those years when relegation wasn't an issue. Too many teams which might be better off being at the top of the intermediate or the junior grades rather than at the bottom of the pile a level above. If we want to have an elite competition at SFC level it should be as few numbers as possible with the best teams.

Someone a while back suggested we adopt the Kerry model of regional teams in the senior championship. I feel this would be a great idea particularly at underage. If the best players from the smaller clubs played with the regional teams they could possibly double with county development squads. It's at underage that it would need to be started and probably where the idea would be most important in the long run

My ideal format would be a senior championsip of 16 teams (possibly with 4/5 regional teams included) 4 groups of 4 - top 2 to QFs, bottom teams to relegation play offs. And then 16 teams in each of IFC and JFC below that

Hibbeler

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I'd see Geraghty's managerial approach towards players more along the lines of Roy Keane than DiCanio

He definitely would be closer to Keane imo. Possibly wouldn't have him as manager but would feel that GG would make a great addition to a panel of selectors. I think he would be an effective motivator and man manager and the players would certainly respect him.

Does anyone know how he has performed in any of his club management roles? I know he was/is? at Duleek for a while and another club in Westmeath at some stage as well.

Meath Centre Forward

Lads just on the championship, I agree Meath's is totally out-of-date - actually I'm not sure if it ever was in-date. Meath actually have more senior club championship games than any of the big counties including Dublin who have nearly twice the number of senior teams.

A few years ago they raised the senior championship from 16 to 17 when the relegation saga meant no team went down. Not long after, there was no relegation to bring it up to 18 teams. I can't believe during this restructuring that the five group games was not changed. As someone says you can actually win only 2 out of your 5 group games and still qualify for the knock-out stages. Seneschalstown did this one time and went on to win it outright.

I looked at a few different counties and by far the most popular was the Derry, Armagh, Kildare template of 16 teams and 2 back-doors up to the quarter-finals. This is the format I would like to see in Meath.

Dublin have an open draw of 32 teams - but realistically only about a quarter of those have any hope of winning it. Tyrone the same with 16 teams. Donegal and Mayo have the 4 groups of 4 teams that some people have mentioned which would be second choice format.

If going down the route of regional teams then Cork's championship seems by far the fairest with the 8 divisions and 2 colleges playing off for 2 places in the senior championship. I've never fully got my head around the Kerry championship despite it being heralded by a lot of people as one of the best, although I do know there are 2 - a senior club championship and a county championship comprising of regional teams.

Hibbeler

Meath Centre Forward, surely the 4 groups of 4 teams would be a more palletable sell to the clubs since we've had group stage formats for such a long time in Meath. As it stands clubs are guaranteed 5 championship games, do you think they would agree to change this to a straight knock out/back door arrangement where they might only have 2 games? Especially given the effort put in to prepare for a championship, I'd completely understand if players in particular would rather more than a couple of rounds.

As for the Kerry championship, my understanding is that the county championship including the regional teams is the main one. The club championship is secondary (similar to our Feis Cup perhaps) but should a regional team win the county championship then the winner of the club championship competes in Munster.

The cork format mentioned is interesting, no less because including colleges there are 10 regional/college teams playing off for two SFC places. If such a format were put in place in Meath I couldn't see us having more than 4/5 regions (probably 4), it would be a waste of time IMO to have those 4/5 teams play off against each other, just have them in the championship if you want to have the benefit of them.

Though introducing regional teams might be a step too far for adult football I feel it would be very beneficial in underage. It would in theory give young players the opportunity to play with/against their peers from the larger and better equipped clubs and teams could be run as an extension of the county underage development teams

HighKing33

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

Another thing - Meath have invested a lot in the League and I think it's left them a bit leggy come championship. I would regard it as no co-incidence that the last two championships have been disappointing after tough League campaigns. I don't think Meath have the panel or the options to attack both as they'd like.

But every team faces the same demands as regards fitness levels and durability. Our football season is no longer than any other county's so I can't really accept that as an excuse.

Anyway, I heard it down the pub that Dunshauglin's management team were considering going for the position so you can take that for what it's worth.

klairondavis

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

I looked at a few different counties and by far the most popular was the Derry, Armagh, Kildare template of 16 teams and 2 back-doors up to the quarter-finals. This is the format I would like to see in Meath.

It's a fantastic system if you have 16 teams. We have it for the senior and the intermediate championship for the last few years. It was up for review at the county convention with a number of alternatives proposed and it was unanimously agreed to retain the current system. Every senior and intermediate club guaranteed three championship games with something riding on each one of them. No dead rubbers like you'd get in a round robin.

rpurfield

Senior champo is too big and a bit mad too, with so many going out of the groups you could potentially afford to lose 2 or 3 and still go through. It takes the edge off IMO. The bullet needs biting and the SFC and IFC regulated to 16 teams and so on with a knock on to the other ranks. Then again its asking turkeys to vote for Christmas as teams that are borderline would never go for it.

iDave

Are we not getting a bit desperate worryingly about the club formats. Derry Armagh and Kildare aren't exactly banging out All Irelands.

gonegray

Hi Folks, a kerryman looking in on your thread and you got my interest when you mentioned championship setups. IMO it is not only the championship setup but the total setup that helps.
As was mentioned above most people look at our championship structure, but even down here we were not happy with it as it was seen that too many of the games were not of a high enough standard, and because of that a review was started and will be implemented next year. This will see the following happen (to best of my knowledge)
- 3 clubs relegated from senior to intermediate (no promotion from intermediate)
- 4 clubs relegated from intermediate to junior (one will come up)
- 4 clubs relegated from junior to novice (one will come up)

At the moment only the county championship has a backdoor but that will now be removed.
with 9 divisional teams the 2 lowest ranked will play in a prelim game and from there straight knockout.
One result of this is that the championship games should be high intensity.

But the county championships is only one part. The county leagues are the other and the ones here are competitive as are the district championships which are usually held later in the year.

Sorry for the long post, what I am try to say is that the whole structure has to be looked at with the aim of providing games for the club player and also providing players to the county setup, and for players in the county setup they must have experience of playing games with it all on the line.

iDave

Injury curse shows no sign of abating. Flanagan has done his cruciate.

dixiefly

Yes, I wise the lad all the best in his recovery. We really have been plagued with injuries.

i hear a lot of conflicting views on the co board's decision to recomend a continuation of Mick o'Dowd as senior team manager. Pesonally I would prefer to see a change but perhaps the poweres that be want continuity even if that continuity is of a level that has been pretty flat in recent years.

Obrieski

Big Meath GAA news in the independent tomorrow according to Donnchadh Boyle who writes for them. Can only imagine it's manager related...?

Rock Lesnar

Trevor Giles has stepped down as Selector