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Child Item

Luas assult victim ..... Case puzzling

handlemaster

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/passengers-watched-as-woman-attacked-and-robbed-on-luas-1.2280555

The judge accepts a defendant acted out of character but has 24 previous convictions ... Im I missing somthing?

P.s. I know selling mistake in the title ..

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henryporter

frostyjacks wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think they have this same issue in the north. This class of thieving, junkie scum is very much Dublin based. Walk down O'Connell street and you can spot them a mile away.

Unfortunately they are an infestation across the country, feral scumbags with nothing but self entitlement as their reason for existing. The PC brigade have given them free reign to wander about intimidating others who just want to get on with living and working and contributing something to society - it's not acceptable to say that someone's drug problem or poor upbringing are contributing factors to their incessant recidivism - isn't there a deserted island somewhere where they could all be dumped and left to deal with each other on their own myopic moronic terms?

It makes me so mad to read articles like that - those bastards are looking for more sympathy than they afforded their victim and continue to live on the charity of the state in between their pathetic violent outbursts. The aforementioned PC brigade will say "ah but sure, they had a hard life" or some other guff - not as hard a life as the victim will have in waking up every so often shaking in fear and disgust at themselves. The PC brigade (and I used to be one of them) will not wise up until the same sort of crime is visited upon them. Maybe they should wise up quicker by putting themselves in the position of that poor woman at that moment having your world turned upside down and left that way.

anewme

phone150 wrote: »

In all fairness what do you think would happen if one person stood up and told 2 scumbags strung out on drink/drugs to leave the woman alone?? They'd just say ok and go on their way?? No they'd take it out on the person intervening and would probably use more violence or even a knife on someone for standing up to them, , Very foolish thing to do to take on scum like that when you don't know what they are capable of and what weapons they have. But hay at least you'd be called a hero in the papers when they're reporting your funeral.

Only sensible thing to do is call the guards and there's no excuse for not doing that.

One person would be no use.

A few big lads on the luas would have knocked two skinny rat junkies into next week.

I hope it never happens to their wife or daughter and people look the other way.

I've intervened on the Luas when a junkie robbed a blokes phone. Bloke asked other passengers for support and said if this guy punches me when i physically take back my phone will anyone help? Funny, when I backed him up him so did loads of other people (including women). Junkie backed off (not before calling me a nosy c***)

I've also intervened when we (a group of four of us) spotted another group of four dragging a girl down the road by the hair on her hands and knees while a load of people just got out of the way. They did attack us physically by the way when we interfered and could have easy had knives etc. We were later thanked both by the police and the girls mother(girl was in a bad way in hospital) mother was calling us guardian angels and was in tears.

I understand people are afraid that they could turn on you. But what's the alternative. Ignore these random assaults till one day it is you, and people pretend not to see. Maybe you could be the unlucky one they kill. Someone should have got off luas and called Gardai if that's the case but to ignore it?

I work on the assumption that if my day comes then I will get my payback and that someone will help me.

lanos

Deleted User wrote: »

Any violent unprovoked assaults in NI since they took office?

Let's search. Bet I can at least one.

Which would put SF figures in the unique position of both being involved in violent criminality and failing to curb it.

apparently NI is a lovely place to live nowadays.
Troubles are a distant memory and tourism is thriving.
And no junkie scum roaming the streets in Belfast with impunity.
well done NI policing & well done SF by extension.

of course i'm not saying it is crime free because nowhere is

darkpagandeath

anewme wrote: »

One person would be no use.

A few big lads on the luas would have knocked two skinny rat junkies into next week.

I hope it never happens to their wife or daughter and people look the other way.

I've intervened on the Luas when a junkie robbed a blokes phone. Bloke asked other passengers for support and said if this guy punches me when i physically take back my phone will anyone help? Funny, when I backed him up him so did loads of other people (including women). Junkie backed off (not before calling me a nosy c***)

I've also intervened when we (a group of four of us) spotted another group of four dragging a girl down the road by the hair on her hands and knees while a load of people just got out of the way. They did attack us physically by the way when we interfered and could have easy had knives etc. We were later thanked both by the police and the girls mother(girl was in a bad way in hospital) mother was calling us guardian angels and was in tears.

I understand people are afraid that they could turn on you. But what's the alternative. Ignore these random assaults till one day it is you, and people pretend not to see. Maybe you could be the unlucky one they kill. Someone should have got off luas and called Gardai if that's the case but to ignore it?

I work on the assumption that if my day comes then I will get my payback and that someone will help me.

One must have missed the rise of them phone videos of scumbags telling security they cannot lay a finger on them. The sad part is they can't.

anewme

I'm not talking about security.

When the guy asked for passenger support on the red line luas against a junkie a woman of about 60 said " stop acting the b*****, or I'll fn smother you with me new pillows". She had bags of pillows she was after buying in town. Still laugh thinking of it.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any violent unprovoked assaults in NI since they took office?

Let's search. Bet I can at least one.

Which would put SF figures in the unique position of both being involved in violent criminality and failing to curb it.

That's a huge stretch -- a different country -- to explain why you even mentioned Sinn Fein to begin with in a thread about Dublin criminality. It's not even politicians in the republic who are to blame -- we have enough laws just not enough enforcement.

biko

It's a sad state of affairs when two scumbags pester and assault a person and a car full of people are to afraid to do anything.
I wonder what hurts more, the actions of the scumbags or the in-actions of the cowards.

Discodog

Anyone who heard the interview with Noel Hill on Liveline would be amazed that his attacker will be released in three years. The guy was kicked repeatedly in the head & nearly died.

There should be two benchmarks. One if violence or threat of violence is used. The second if a person is hit or kicked repeatedly. In the first case the minimum sentence should be one year served. In the second it should be 10 years.

darkpagandeath

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone who heard the interview with Noel Hill on Liveline would be amazed that his attacker will be released in three years. The guy was kicked repeatedly in the head & nearly died.

There should be two benchmarks. One if violence or threat of violence is used. The second if a person is hit or kicked repeatedly. In the first case the minimum sentence should be one year served. In the second it should be 10 years.

We should start implementing Australian types of 1 punch and all that.

Mint Aero

It would be hard to intervene. You'd have to wash your hands constantly for a month afterwards, burn the clothes you were wearing and sit in a hot shower for 3 days straight just to get the ickiness off ya after coming in contact with those drug addict, alcoholic degenerates.

Having said that people obviously did intervene since they were followed by bystanders and the items retrieved.

I would've intervened most likely, the only instance where I wouldn't is if the victim looked equally scummy. However from reading the article she was polish so most likely a nice girl and I would've began with an authoritative instruction to the two to cease, and then battered them senseless if needs be whilst making a citizens arrest.

cajonlardo

phone150 wrote: »

In all fairness what do you think would happen if one person stood up and told 2 scumbags strung out on drink/drugs to leave the woman alone?? They'd just say ok and go on their way?? No they'd take it out on the person intervening and would probably use more violence or even a knife on someone for standing up to them, , Very foolish thing to do to take on scum like that when you don't know what they are capable of and what weapons they have. But hay at least you'd be called a hero in the papers when they're reporting your funeral.

Only sensible thing to do is call the guards and there's no excuse for not doing that.

There is a lot of sense in what you post but circumstances can differ.

In any kind of emergency you have to access the situation and whatever you do, do not become part of the problem. For example, there would be little point in me diving into a river to save some one as I am not a strong swimmer.

Anyone can, but it seems seldom do, help the victim in the aftermath by comforting them, loaning a phone or a few euros etc. and it bothers me greatly that doesn't seem to happen.

On the day I had to intervene it was blatantly obvious that there was serious risk to the victim - there were people kicking her head and stamping on her. Any risk to myself would have been less and I was convinced I could help. It worked out well because somehow she managed to board a bus while the gang were squaring up to me and she got away. I was then able to run and call the gardai.

Discodog

Some countries like France impose a legal requirement for citizens to assist.

languagenerd

People don't intervene for a few reasons.
One, on that Luas line, regular passengers are desensitised to it. You see gangs of junkies or scumbags fighting each other all the time - tbh, when I got that line, I had my headphones in and stared out the window the whole way to town. There's a good chance I wouldn't have noticed it happening, or just assumed it was the usual crowd beating each other up.

Two, as happened in this case, there's usually no security and the driver will do nothing - the glass door is kept closed and (s)he'll keep going as normal til security appear at a stop further down the line, which may never happen. If you intervene, you're on your own and trapped in glass box with the scumbags until the next station, where they may well follow you off or stop you leaving. And they may well recognise you the next time as well.

Three, as everyone said, they might turn a knife on you, or the victim might turn on you, or you might get a syringe in the throat. Yes, it's shameful, but everyone has that degree of self-preservation. You feel it won't have any impact if you do step in, because you'll get attacked and they'll continue with the original victim anyway.

And it will keep happening until effective security, policing and sentencing happens. Scumbags do what they like, there's no deterrent, no fear, and they're just let away with it.

suicide_circus

Egginacup wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if there was a burly Polish bricklayer on the Luas on his way to work he would have hammered 7 shades of shit out of these two rats. But locals just cower and think "don't get involved".

The important difference is that the local cowards know in Ireland there is a very good chance of our Polish hero being done for assault in that scenario

anewme

suicide_circus wrote: »

The important difference is that the local cowards know in Ireland there is a very good chance of our Polish hero being done for assault in that scenario

I honestly think if anyone had got involved in the case mentioned that no judge in the land would convict them. As someone said above, sometimes you have to assess the situation at hand, make your own judgement and accept with the consequences.

anyone with a bit of cop on would see the difference between junkies fighting or junkies attacking the poor girl in question ;would be clear not a junkie) and act accordingly.

As i said earlier, I will always help, people, animals being beaten, etc and hope if I need it, that karma saves it up for me

In general I've come across a lot of helpful streetwise people, so she could have just got a bad batch on that Luas. I would not have it in my concience that I sat there while scumbags punched and robbed a terrified woman.

That said some must have followed them as they were apprehended!

handlemaster

tawnyowl wrote: »

"Sterilise them"? Jesus wept!

If your a scumbag chances are your going to teach your kids the same. Why not when the sentence is been passed give an option of sterilisation for say two years or what ever off the sentence. The criminal can decide to take up the offer or not.

An Claidheamh

[quote="[Deleted User];96196384

You also omitted SF...but I guess they really can't talk about lawlessness, murder, beatings etc without alienating some in their own front bench...[/quote]

Apparently SF haven't been in govt in the last 20 years Conor.....

How Soon Is Now

languagenerd wrote: »

People don't intervene for a few reasons.
One, on that Luas line, regular passengers are desensitised to it. You see gangs of junkies or scumbags fighting each other all the time - tbh, when I got that line, I had my headphones in and stared out the window the whole way to town. There's a good chance I wouldn't have noticed it happening, or just assumed it was the usual crowd beating each other up.

Two, as happened in this case, there's usually no security and the driver will do nothing - the glass door is kept closed and (s)he'll keep going as normal til security appear at a stop further down the line, which may never happen. If you intervene, you're on your own and trapped in glass box with the scumbags until the next station, where they may well follow you off or stop you leaving. And they may well recognise you the next time as well.

Three, as everyone said, they might turn a knife on you, or the victim might turn on you, or you might get a syringe in the throat. Yes, it's shameful, but everyone has that degree of self-preservation. You feel it won't have any impact if you do step in, because you'll get attacked and they'll continue with the original victim anyway.

And it will keep happening until effective security, policing and sentencing happens. Scumbags do what they like, there's no deterrent, no fear, and they're just let away with it.

I can relate to a lot of this. As i said originally im on the luas at least twice a day on the red line you just get used to whats going on.

I tend to sit at the very top if i can get the seat to avoid everyone really

Ive been in the middle of stupid dragged up teenagers talking **** and fighting and i just ignored it. All it takes is you look at one of them the wrong way and one them ends up over at you as it is they fall all over people normally anyway.

Any of the times ive seen anything serious happen ive been away from it so i wasnt going to get up out of my seat and run down the other end of the luas like a fool. People closer did get up and help out the situation anyway they could and chances are if i was next to something going on id get involved if i taught it was worth it ive done it before in other situations.

What i mean by being worth it is sometimes your best off for your own well being to stay out of it because you dont know whats going to happen!
At the end of the day theres no point trying to be the hero if your gonna get knifed or something similar.

You can normally judge these situations some what.

Summer wind

This will keep happening until these judges get their heads out of their arses and impose proper sentences. I know a lot of decent hardworking people that haven't have the best of lives and they're not out punching and robbing anyone.

homerjay2005

people go on and on every day to change laws/constitutions that actually only impact a small% of our population, but very rarely do we see people demanding we make important changes to our laws that would see people with X number of convictions, no matter how minimal, serve a jail compulsory jail sentence.

suspended sentences should not apply to repeat offenders either. Judges should have the choice of sentencing taken away from them, it should be consistent, fair and uniform across all sectors and all criminals treated with the most serious sentences possible.

the fact that somebody with 50 convictions is free to re-offend is something that really would only happen in Ireland.

languagenerd

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I can relate to a lot of this. As i said originally im on the luas at least twice a day on the red line you just get used to whats going on.

I tend to sit at the very top if i can get the seat to avoid everyone really

Ive been in the middle of stupid dragged up teenagers talking **** and fighting and i just ignored it. All it takes is you look at one of them the wrong way and one them ends up over at you as it is they fall all over people normally anyway.

Any of the times ive seen anything serious happen ive been away from it so i wasnt going to get up out of my seat and run down the other end of the luas like a fool. People closer did get up and help out the situation anyway they could and chances are if i was next to something going on id get involved if i taught it was worth it ive done it before in other situations.

What i mean by being worth it is sometimes your best off for your own well being to stay out of it because you dont know whats going to happen!
At the end of the day theres no point trying to be the hero if your gonna get knifed or something similar.

You can normally judge these situations some what.

That's the thing - sometimes you feel intervening would just make things worse, especially if there's a big gap before the next stop. It's not like you or the first victim can get away easily. You can't distract them, let the victim run, then run yourself, cause there's nowhere to go - they'll just carry on regardless.

I got that line every day for 5 years. I had a few minor assaults myself (one groping incident, was shoved about by a group of teens twice, had things thrown at me another time) and witnessed countless others, including one where the driver stopped at Jervis to wait for the guards after a scumbag punched a tourist, only to open the doors to let said scumbag back on (the tourist's tiny girlfriend somehow managed to push him back off, fair play to her). I saw a lot of fights between junkies, two different lads openly carrying large weapons, groups of guys throwing snowballs on the trams, exposing themselves, pissing out the doors... Racial abuse, threats, drug deals and just harrassment as well.

It wasn't every day, or every journey, but it was regular. And every time I wrote to complain, I got the same canned response claiming there's constant security on the red line (no, there f*cking isn't!).

We need a Transport Police with actual powers rather than private security, we need better sentencing to act as a deterrent and we need an education system that can nip this crap in the bud. There's a whole section of Irish society who feel the rules don't apply to them and they're entitled to do whatever they like - and a large proportion of them are on the Luas.

[Deleted User]

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Judges should have the choice of sentencing taken away from them...

It would seem to me to be a fundamental attack on democracy, that when it comes to imposing a penalty we would remove the decision making function from those entrusted to make decisions. Who would we vest it in, who would make the decisions about penalties?

foggy_lad

biko wrote: »

It's a sad state of affairs when two scumbags pester and assault a person and a car full of people are to afraid to do anything.
I wonder what hurts more, the actions of the scumbags or the in-actions of the cowards.

Often the "victim" is just one of the scumbags. People also know that if they get involved it will probably mean giving a statement and that will mean if it goes to court the scumbags have to be given your name and address.

languagenerd wrote: »

We need a Transport Police with actual powers rather than private security, we need better sentencing to act as a deterrent and we need an education system that can nip this crap in the bud. There's a whole section of Irish society who feel the rules don't apply to them and they're entitled to do whatever they like - and a large proportion of them are on the Luas.

We can't afford the police we have!

What is needed is effective and appropriate punitive sentencing for anti-social crimes and certain violent crimes as the softly softly approach is not working! Turn Mountjoy into the biggest Borstal in the country and give all the guards rubber covered batons to beat the crap out of any scumbag that dares to step out of line or answer back or otherwise show the slightest disrespect.

these scum have no respect and NEVER will have respect for anything or anyone. They will never respond to al the efforts to rehabilitate them, they just see it as weakness and use it to stay out of prison committing more and more crimes!

gramar

languagenerd wrote: »

It wasn't every day, or every journey, but it was regular. And every time I wrote to complain, I got the same canned response claiming there's constant security on the red line (no, there f*cking isn't!).

We need a Transport Police with actual powers rather than private security, we need better sentencing to act as a deterrent and we need an education system that can nip this crap in the bud. There's a whole section of Irish society who feel the rules don't apply to them and they're entitled to do whatever they like - and a large proportion of them are on the Luas.

We don't..we need half decent citizens capable of riding the Luas or the bus without assulting or abusing other passengers or engaging in anti-social behaviour.

Pie in the sky stuff but it's sad to say that you can't get on public transport without putting up with that kind of shít.

BobMc

Can understand not getting involved, you never know what will happen, as for security, i'm not for it, its a police job not a security guards job, why not transit police like other built up cities.

Look no. 1 problem is concurrent sentencing and suspended sentences, suspended sentences should only apply to first time non violent crimes, after that tough titty you're doing time. No concurrent sentences full stop. Each offence committed during a crime get dished out time. Theft from person x yrs, use of weapon during offence x yrs add them up drop in in jail, no early release, stack em and rack em !!, By all means bring in 3 strikes and 20yrs. I get very offended reading about scum carrying 3 digit convictions, even someone with 100 convictions carrying 9 months per conviction should be in jail for 75yrs.

darkpagandeath

BobMc wrote: »

Can understand not getting involved, you never know what will happen, as for security, i'm not for it, its a police job not a security guards job, why not transit police like other built up cities.

Look no. 1 problem is concurrent sentencing and suspended sentences, suspended sentences should only apply to first time non violent crimes, after that tough titty you're doing time. No concurrent sentences full stop. Each offence committed during a crime get dished out time. Theft from person x yrs, use of weapon during offence x yrs add them up drop in in jail, no early release, stack em and rack em !!, By all means bring in 3 strikes and 20yrs. I get very offended reading about scum carrying 3 digit convictions, even someone with 100 convictions carrying 9 months per conviction should be in jail for 75yrs.

If they did that just think of the poor lawyers and judges in our legal system starving as all their regulars are actually in jail for the long term.

suicide_circus

It is truly baffling that people with 50whatever convictions is walking around committing crime with seeming impunity. These are CONVICTIONS remember....not crimes committed, not charges against them...actual convictions... by a judge....what the fcuk? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

darkpagandeath

suicide_circus wrote: »

It is truly baffling that people with 50whatever convictions is walking around committing crime with seeming impunity. These are CONVICTIONS remember....not crimes committed, not charges against them...actual convictions... by a judge....what the fcuk? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Are the stats not something like for every conviction 3-5 crimes they have committed are not detected.

BobMc

spoke to a Prison officer socially recently and he told me how when on release awaiting trial so an offence that the general attitude is to offend multiple times as when convicted eventually for the original charge while the others may be taken into account further charges rarely happen. ie Jimmy (with 68 previous) is out awaiting trial for 6x shoplifting charges, while out, Jimmy commits 4 more shoplifting offences, a couple burglaries etc etc.

At trial the sob story is trotted gets 9 months for a 1x shoplifiting offence the other charges are taken into account etc etc etc Jimmy's out in 3 months due to overcrowding etc etc etc Jimmy now with 81 previous convictions ! Continues as before until next slap on the wrist.

handlemaster

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/father-in-house-of-horrors-case-has-more-of-jail-term-suspended-1.2287339

This is an appalling ruling