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Transracial

Dogowner55

huffingtonpost.com/rev-miller-jen-hoffman/jenner-can-dolezal-cant-b_b_7754724.html

I am conflicted on this, now I am straight non-trans man but I also can't see why there is a difference in a person realising they are not the right sex and a person realising they are the wrong race.

Both are genetic so why is one taken as ok and one not. This woman obviously feels like she is black, how can anyone deny how she feels a person and how is different then a transsexual.

Another transracial person is also getting pick on here

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/07/10/open-letter-defenders-andrea-smith-clearing-misconceptions-about-cherokee-identification

This is obviously a thing and people are dismissing it as it's uncommon, but transsexuals where dismissed in the same way when it became seen in the public too.

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Very Bored

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But I wouldn't fire her cause she was white when clearly she feels she is black.

What's going on why can't edit, get a white page

But you shouldn't fire her simply because she is white or black anyway.

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

Why not? A white human being is a white human being and vice versa. Now, there is nothing wrong with, and little stopping, someone taking an interest in and mixing with people from an alternative group. But a white person isn't suddenly black because they think they are. If we are going to invert that logic then I don't see why it becomes illogical for a person to believe they are a spud or a dog.

But why can a man suddenly be a woman because they think they are. This is my disconnect to me they both are as valid as each other

Hande hoche!

Very Bored wrote: »

I think this is a question of where do you draw the line. What if somebody says they think they are a carrot?

Would that person be Rob Schneider?

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

But you shouldn't fire her simply because she is white or black anyway.

But she was fired cause she got outed as transracial

Paddy Cow

The difference between Jenner and Rachel, is that Jenner has been transparent about her journey from male to female, whereas Rachel pretended to be black to further her career. People don't like being lied to and that's why Rachel suffered such a backlash.

Calling Rachel "transracial" and comparing her to Jenner is just making a mockery of transgender people. It's a facetious strawman argument and anyone who seriously believes the comparison is valid, I have news for you - you are not a clever intellectual, you are a knob of the highest order.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How can a person be trans racialist when the concept of race is a man made invention?

I've given the example of Eminem. This guy grew up in black dominated neighbourhood, had black friends, wore "black" clothes, listened to and made a career out of "black" music and even speaks in ebonics. So would you consider him to be a trans racialist black guy?

He's not claiming to be black, is he? therefore obviously no. If he did claim to be black and transracial - also no.

NachoBusiness

Very Bored wrote: »

I think this is a question of where do you draw the line. What if somebody says they think they are a carrot?

Met one once. He really grated on me.

evolving_doors

Links234 wrote: »

Because they are completely different things, and there is a whole host of scientific evidence showing that transsexuality is a physiological issue, something that happens during fetal development. That's the difference.

Interesting, although physiological can be a loaded term (untill scientifically proven).

Take the case of someone who has always thought that they were of the opposite gender to what they were ascribed.. up until very recently some cultures would have said 'nonsense' you 'look' female therefore you are female.. and then with the aid of science it was discovered that, yes indeed this person does actually have male chromosomes. Nothing new there in terms of this debate....

Now lets switch the analogy to someone whose always thought they were from another race.. 'nonsense' their culture proclaims.. 'you look like you are from this race therefore you are'... but then a genetic test reveals that this person (or culture even!) has genetic characteristics closely related to an out side culture. Would this not then vindicate this persons feelings of being transracial?

Im thinking along the lines of the 'recently discovered' Cohen gene in Ethiopia.

InTheTrees

Dogowner55 wrote: »

This woman obviously feels like she is black, how can anyone deny how she feels a person and how is different then a transsexual.

I think dolezal's problem wss that she denied ever being white and lied about it and she used it as a way to advance her career.

I dont think anyone would have a problem with it if she wanted to do it openly.

:cool:

InTheTrees

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But she was fired cause she got outed as transracial

No. She was fired because she lied.

Dogowner55

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The difference between Jenner and Rachel, is that Jenner has been transparent about her journey from male to female, whereas Rachel pretended to be black to further her career. People don't like being lied to and that's why Rachel suffered such a backlash.

Calling Rachel "transracial" and comparing her to Jenner is just making a mockery of transgender people. It's a facetious strawman argument and anyone who seriously believes the comparison is valid, I have news for you - you are not a clever intellectual, you are a knob of the highest order.

But there is plenty of stealth trans women who never tell anyone they where born men, some even married without telling.

Stealth is a huge thing in the trans community, obviously jennar is too in the public to go stealth but a huge amount of trans women do and don't tell people there history's.

Should all stealth trans women be outed and face a backlash for lying about their history

Eugene Norman

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The difference between Jenner and Rachel, is that Jenner has been transparent about her journey from male to female, whereas Rachel pretended to be black to further her career. People don't like being lied to and that's why Rachel suffered such a backlash.

Calling Rachel "transracial" and comparing her to Jenner is just making a mockery of transgender people. It's a facetious strawman argument and anyone who seriously believes the comparison is valid, I have news for you - you are not a clever intellectual, you are a knob of the highest order.

That's not so nice.

Surely the difference is more than just people being truthful or not. I suppose that if race is a social construct like gender is claimed to be, transracialism can exist.

Dogowner55

InTheTrees wrote: »

No. She was fired because she lied.

So if a stealth trans women has a job and it comes out she is trans she should be fired cause she lied?

evolving_doors

sorry, meant the Cohen gene in Zimbabwe

Very Bored

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But why can a man suddenly be a woman because they think they are. This is my disconnect to me they both are as valid as each other

I don't see it as necessary. I can understand why someone might want to change gender. They may want to fulfil a traditional fe/male role, they may want to use things specifically set aside for that gender or they may want to have sex in a certain way. Regardless of whether you are black, white, oriental or any other race you are not, in liberal democratic nations, prohibited from joining in with traditional activities of another race. Personally, I am very interested in many Italian things. I watch Italian TV and films, listen to Italian radio and music, read Italian books and newspapers, watch Italian sport, have Italian friends, have attended typical Italian festivities, eat and drink Italian cuisine. I have access to all those things and nothing blocks me from doing those things. I don't need to define myself as Italian to do that.

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

I don't see it as necessary. I can understand why someone might want to change gender. They may want to fulfil a traditional fe/male role, they may want to use things specifically set aside for that gender or they may want to have sex in a certain way. Regardless of whether you are black, white, oriental or any other race you are not, in liberal democratic nations, prohibited from joining in with traditional activities of another race. Personally, I am very interested in many Italian things. I watch Italian TV and films, listen to Italian radio and music, read Italian books and newspapers, watch Italian sport, have Italian friends, have attended typical Italian festivities, eat and drink Italian cuisine. I have access to all those things and nothing blocks me from doing those things. I don't need to define myself as Italian to do that.

But you don't need a sex change ro fulfil a gender role opisote of your sex either.

Links234

Very Bored wrote: »

They may want to fulfil a traditional fe/male role..

That's not why people are transgender, it's nothing to do with roles or any such nonsense

Dogowner55

Links234 wrote: »

That's not why people are transgender, it's nothing to do with roles or any such nonsense

Yeah I agree transsexual or transracial has to be more then just a role thing, they must feel deep down they are that gender or race to change change something. You don't need to do that just cause you like certain foods or gender fashion or roles

InTheTrees

Dogowner55 wrote: »

So if a stealth trans women has a job and it comes out she is trans she should be fired cause she lied?

If the lie made the difference between being hired or not being hired then yes of course.

Paramite Pie

Your "race" is your DNA. It's fixed. What you're talking about here is Trans-Culturalism.

Dogowner55

InTheTrees wrote: »

If the lie made the difference between being hired or not being hired then yes of course.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Mock

When she came out as trans sould she have been fired and told she lied so is now a man.

Dogowner55

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Your "race" is your DNA. It's fixed. What you're talking about here is Trans-Culturalism.

Your sex is your dna also, it's as fixed as your race

Very Bored

Links234 wrote: »

That's not why people are transgender, it's nothing to do with roles or any such nonsense

I suspect you're wrong to generalise. In every group of people there will be a vast multitude of reasons for why different people do different things. Maybe the reason I cited is not true in the majority of cases but that's not to say that its not true for anybody.

Personally, I accept that someone is transgender before they complete a full sex change, but I don't accept that they are the opposite sex until that stage. That is not to say that I have any issues with the way anyone chooses to live once their lifestyle does not harm anyone else, but, in my opinion, someone with the anatomy of a man is not a woman, though they may well fit into the transgender group. I also suspect that the vast majority of the population is not as fully accepting as may seem on the surface. Whilst I deplore anybody attacking or insulting anybody else because of their lifestyle choice, personally I would not choose to date a woman who was born a man. You can accuse me of being bigotted if you life but that is my lifestyle choice and I suspect I am not alone in choosing that path.

That is not to ridicule anyone nor is it an expression of loathing as I have already stated that I believe everyone has the right to make the lifestyle choices they want once they are not hurting anyone else.

Very Bored

InTheTrees wrote: »

If the lie made the difference between being hired or not being hired then yes of course.

I would hope that any choice of who to employ being made based on sex, race or any other number of issues of identification would be considered extremely suspect.

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

I suspect you're wrong to generalise. In every group of people there will be a vast multitude of reasons for why different people do different things. Maybe the reason I cited is not true in the majority of cases but that's not to say that its not true for anybody.

Personally, I accept that someone is transgender before they complete a full sex change, but I don't accept that they are the opposite sex until that stage. That is not to say that I have any issues with the way anyone chooses to live once their lifestyle does not harm anyone else, but, in my opinion, someone with the anatomy of a man is not a woman, though they may well fit into the transgender group. I also suspect that the vast majority of the population is not as fully accepting as may seem on the surface. Whilst I deplore anybody attacking or insulting anybody else because of their lifestyle choice, personally I would not choose to date a woman who was born a man. You can accuse me of being bigotted if you life but that is my lifestyle choice and I suspect I am not alone in choosing that path.

That is not to ridicule anyone nor is it an expression of loathing as I have already stated that I believe everyone has the right to make the lifestyle choices they want once they are not hurting anyone else.

I don't think anyone will attack you for not dating a person due to your own reasons.

wakka12

I agree OP, I think people are very hypocritical to accept transgenderism and not transracialism.

NachoBusiness

Some people are so bigoted these days that I heard they now even question whether Transylvania even exists.

pickarooney

Very Bored wrote: »

I don't think you would call her by her chosen race though. People typically don't refer to race when they talk about people. When talking to a transgender person you can specifically choose to call them Mr. on the one hand or Miss/Mrs. on the other, for example, Mr. or Miss/Mrs. Reilly makes it clearly what gender you think they are. People don't generally say hello white Reilly or hello black Reilly. Really, I think its much less of an issue than with gender.

But can (OITNB SPOILER)

Black Cindy really become Jewish?

Dogowner55

pickarooney wrote: »

But can (OITNB SPOILER)
Black Cindy really become Jewish?

In fairness she changed to the jewish religion, I don't think she became or taken the jewish race. Jewish race and religion are two separate things

Paramite Pie

Dogowner55 wrote: »

Your sex is your dna also, it's as fixed as your race

In the first few weeks of conception all our DNA is genderless. The 'Y' chromosomes develop which changes us into males. It's conceivable (at least to me) that some people only partially develop in that manner.

This gives rise to both Transgender (who tend to have brain development "in-between" genders) and Inter-sex people who have typically have genetic (XXY instead of XY) and sometimes physical gender traits (ie both genitalia).

Studies have shown that the Androgen or Testosterone receptors in Transgender people are longer/shorter than the norm for their biological gender - hence we assign them an internal one.

There is no physical evidence for an inward Race vs outward Race since it doesn't generally have an impact outside of your culture. Gender encompasses a biological identity as well as a cultural one.