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Child Item

Calling grown women "girls", offensive?

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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/08/stop-calling-women-girls-its-either-patronising-or-sexually-suggestive?CMP=fb_gu

Reading this article and I immediately thought feminism gone mad or whatever, but I can see how the 2 politicians would get annoyed at being called girls in the situation talked about I guess.

As for the sexual side that was brought up, that sounded like a load of crap really. Does every somewhat feminist article have to mention pay inequality in some way too? I don't believe it's an issue in society moving forward as all the bigwig men who grew up in a time when sexism was prevalent start to die off and being replaced I think that stat will find the balance between the sexes.

Thoughts? I realise this could be a tough topic to discuss properly on here but the article has me thinking (maybe more than it should).

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The Adversary

God, they wouldn't want to be from Waterford.

Everything is "Well Gurrll" "Well boii"

dont bother

kylith wrote: »

The thing is that what may be a 'big drama over nothing' to you may be a serious issue for someone else especially in a work situation. I doubt if I'm alone in having my gender used against me in work. TBH, that your reaction to someone saying 'Please don't call me that, I find it patronizing' would be that they have a problem rather than to think to yourself 'OK, I won't call her that again' speaks volumes.

It's not about being friends with everyone, it's about treating the people around you with respect.

but respect is earned, and most people i know would NOT respect someone who is so easily offended, or rather, someone who FINDS offence in these things.

if it's a work situation, you should be getting on with your work and not focussing on such trivial matters as feminist agendas.

kylith

dont bother wrote: »

but respect is earned, and most people i know would NOT respect someone who is so easily offended, or rather, someone who FINDS offence in these things.

if it's a work situation, you should be getting on with your work and not focussing on such trivial matters as feminist agendas.

Seriously, someone would have to somehow 'earn' a form of address off you? It's not even about being offended, it's about the correct way to behave in a given situation. Respect costs nothing, it's not a feminist agenda. If you called a male colleague 'boy' and he asked you not to do it again would you think he was being too sensitive?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

It depends on context absolutely, "going out with the girls" vs "OK I'll do this spreadsheet and you go make the tea, good girl".

A certain kind of lecherous, patronising, completely sexist gentleman who we've all experienced will definitely use the word A LOT (usually while staring at your tits and remarking on what a clever girl you must be because you can do something like operate a fcuking till), so I can kind of see the argument that it's a loaded term. But I wouldn't worry my pretty little head about it by and large, I'll only hurt my ladybrain. And I've better things to be doing

dont bother

kylith wrote: »

Seriously, someone would have to somehow 'earn' a form of address off you? It's not even about being offended, it's about the correct way to behave in a given situation. Respect costs nothing, it's not a feminist agenda. If you called a male colleague 'boy' and he asked you not to do it again would you think he was being too sensitive?

i wouldnt go into the situation thinking "i'll call this person girl/boy/lad" or whatever, it might slip out as a natural way to address somebody. i dont care if they're a boss in a suit or a binman in the street, they get the same dull address from me if they are unknown to me.

if they ask me out straight not to call him that again, i would probably be more inclined to think that he's being overly sensitive, and i would from then on consider that person a complete and utter twat and would do my best to annoy them by "accidentally" forgetting their name, or basically make out that they dont really exist to me, because... i just couldnt take anyone seriously who was like that and had that silly mindset.

i know it's not a "feminist agenda" per-say, but the whole thread is about that topic really, so that's why i said that.

in a nut shell - i could not and will not respect someone who feels like they are belittled by being called a girl or boy or lad or whatever the offending term happens to be on that particular time...

Billy86

Teresa Bewildered Latch wrote: »

It depends on context absolutely, "going out with the girls" vs "OK I'll do this spreadsheet and you go make the tea, good boy/lad".

I've heard that plenty of times, from work colleagues (male or female) to in regular life. Yet somehow, according to the author of the article, it is fine for me to be called that but not for the female colleague stood right beside me to be called 'girl'.

The article itself is very sexist, simple as.

Carlos Orange

Teresa Bewildered Latch wrote: »

It depends on context absolutely, "going out with the girls" vs "OK I'll do this spreadsheet and you go make the tea, good girl".

I don't think I really ever hear it used in the singular sense. Maybe it is analogous to usage of female as a noun or an adjective where people find the noun much more objectionable than the adjective.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

orubiru wrote: »

I think that the fact that the newspaper would feel the article is worthy of publishing is more of an issue that the actual issue with people being offensive or insensitive.

It feels like the internet has reached a point where genuinely interesting articles are pushed aside in favor of click-bait headlines such as "Stop Calling Women 'Girls'. It's Either Patronizing or Sexually Suggestive".

Come on now, whatever we think of the usage of words like "boys" or "girls", that headline is utterly ridiculous.

When reading an article like this I think of how I would react if someone was saying these things to me in real life. I'd genuinely think they were making a big drama over nothing. To find that a national newspaper would be interested in publishing an article about it? It seems very silly.

Of course, my thinking that it was "a big drama over nothing" may be seen as Internalized Misogyny by some people.

If I said "hey girls" to some colleagues and they told me to stop "because it's either patronizing or sexually suggestive" I'd probably just walk away thinking that they are total nitpicky morons and they'd probably walk away thinking I am a total clown for calling them "girls". So I wouldn't be friends with those people and they wouldn't be friends with me, and that's OK.

You can't be friends with everyone and there's a bunch of people you wont like for one reason or another. Articles like this are not much more than a public airing of petty, personal, grievances against other anonymous parties. So I don't know why a website like The Guardian would be publishing them.

I wonder if articles like this are an indicator of how the internet is making it more and more difficult for people to socialize with each other in the real world.

She states "I’ll be honest here and say I do think women calling other women girls get a free pass" which is fine, I suppose, but when the article ends with "Beyonce was almost right. But it’s not girls that run the world – although one day it may well be women." I don't really know what to make of that.

I would imagine most of the reason the guardian deem these articles worthy to run, and a lot of the reason behind the tone they tend to take, is because then people become aware of them. They click on links. They tweet their outrage at the outrage and get their knickers in a twist over people getting their knickers in a twist. It's a tough market out there for publications like the guardian, and they're carving out a niche in it by a kind of "snake eating its own tail" model.

And people KEEP FALLING FOR IT

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

psinno wrote: »

I don't think I really ever hear it used in the singular sense. Maybe it is analogous to usage of female as a noun or an adjective where people find the noun much more objectionable than the adjective.

Well, if you're a man you wouldn't really have cause to hear it, in fairness. I'm referred to as a girl from time to time and I'm 26. And a half.

OneArt

I hope the poor woman doesn't speak German.

People (men AND women) are referred to as girls quite regularly on a familiar basis ("tschuss Maedels!").

Down with this sort of thing. etc...

Carlos Orange

Teresa Bewildered Latch wrote: »

Well, if you're a man you wouldn't really have cause to hear it, in fairness. I'm referred to as a girl from time to time and I'm 26. And a half.

People can only really ever comment on their experience. The question is do people find the singular more objectionable than the plural.

I'm not sure there is any way to finish that sentence that some people wouldn't find objectionable. It is the sentence they object to really. Using girl is mostly just an objection multiplier.

"OK I'll do this spreadsheet and you go make the tea, X"

Generic Dreadhead

Everything is f**king offensive these days, after hours is becoming a total echo chamber for crap like this.

Cannot be arsed with ant more of these Sexism, Racism, Socially Acceptable, Homophobic or whatever "Offensive" copy and paste news stories any more.

Every day it's more of the same crap.

Some people would want to grow a bloody backbone and get over themselves instead of crying "OFFENCE" at every word, phrase or utterance.

We'll all be worm food eventually, you being offended won't matter a damn then and no-one will remember you being offended then either

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

psinno wrote: »

People can only really ever comment on their experience. The question is do people find the singular more objectionable than the plural.

I'm not sure there is any way to finish that sentence that some people wouldn't find objectionable. It is the sentence they object to really. Using girl is mostly just an objection multiplier.

"OK I'll do this spreadsheet and you go make the tea, X"

Ah sorry, didn't see what you were getting at.

I've not really given it much thought, but I think the singular would make me bristle more than the plural, again because of context and intent that I've generally experienced it being used in. Objection multiplier is a good term for it, it very often does get used at the end of sentences like that spreadsheet one. I mean, it's always going to be a judgement call and take some level of cop on, it's not like it's a verboten word that should never be used under any circumstances, far from it; but it certainly does get used somewhat frequently in a way that's intended to infantilise and dismiss women.

Jayop

I walk into the office each day and greet my coworkers (already at their desks because I'm 5 mins late) with a cheery call of "howarya boys and girls?".

I'm such a pig.

Triceratops Ballet

I sometimes get called girl in my work place, "ah you're a great girl altogether" "yeah if you wouldn't mind, good girl!" It annoys me every time! I think it's patronising and rude!
I never say anything about it because I think for the most part the people who do it are of a different era and would be mortified to think they had offended me, that said they never address my male colleague (who is 35 and I'm 32) in the same way. There is one guy who describes himself as an auld chauvanist who does do it and I'm 99% sure he does it just to see if he can get a rise out of me.

In a social context I have no problem being called a girl, "alright girls" going out with the girls etc

as an aside if I was in an office and I heard someone refer to a male colleague in the manner above "ah you're a great boy altogether" "yeah if you wouldn't mind, good boy!" I would think it equally offensive.

Sam Kade

Liam O wrote: »

I do agree, it's a badly written article and it was actually one of the comments that got me thinking. You'd never really hear a couple of circa 50 year old men be called "boys" but these 2 were called "girls" which I guess is disrespectful.

If they called them oap's or old women they'd still moan about it :rolleyes: I know two 80 year old women and their siblings call them the girls

Looking at the link they look like a pair of transvestites.

Jayop

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I sometimes get called girl in my work place, "ah you're a great girl altogether" "yeah if you wouldn't mind, good girl!" It annoys me every time! I think it's patronising and rude!
I never say anything about it because I think for the most part the people who do it are of a different era and would be mortified to think they had offended me, that said they never address my male colleague (who is 35 and I'm 32) in the same way. There is one guy who describes himself as an auld chauvanist who does do it and I'm 99% sure he does it just to see if he can get a rise out of me.

In a social context I have no problem being called a girl, "alright girls" going out with the girls etc

as an aside if I was in an office and I heard someone refer to a male colleague in the manner above "ah you're a great boy altogether" "yeah if you wouldn't mind, good boy!" I would think it equally offensive.

Yeah but that's all about the context and not a sweeping generalisation of the word girl like in the article.

If one of your coworkers said morning boys and girls to everyone would you be offended? Probably not.

If the same coworker says "aren't you a great girl" then you would because he's being a patronising prick. It's not the word girl that's the issue it's the patronising sentence.

Is "good woman" any better than "good girl" when said in the same context?

Triceratops Ballet

Jayop wrote: »

Is "good woman" any better than "good girl" when said in the same context?

I actually think it might be, good woman has been said to me before, far less frequently than good girl, and it tends to have more connotations of "fair play to ye" than the patronising-ness(!) of good girl

The Adversary

We should insist the lyrics of "Galway Girl" be changed to "Galway Woman"

Jayop

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I actually think it might be, good woman has been said to me before, far less frequently than good girl, and it tends to have more connotations of "fair play to ye" than the patronising-ness(!) of good girl

Yeah, maybe I can see that. Like I said though it's all about context and intent rather than the word itself.

I like your made up word btw! Very inventive. Good girl woman yourself!

SpaceTime

Just address everyone like so:

"Attention humans!!"

Alternatively the slightly less PC:

"Attention earthlings"

wp_rathead

SpaceTime wrote: »

Just address everyone like so:

"Attention humans!!"

Alternatively the slightly less PC:

"Attention earthlings"

I'm sure the folk who identify as "Otherkin" won't be too happy with that :pac:

pmasterson95

Jayop wrote: »

I walk into the office each day and greet my coworkers (already at their desks because I'm 5 mins late) with a cheery call of "howarya boys and girls?".

I'm such a pig.

You offensive bastard. If you had any respect you would say
"Hello my fellow male homosapiens and female homosapiens how you"

Precious flower

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I actually think it might be, good woman has been said to me before, far less frequently than good girl, and it tends to have more connotations of "fair play to ye" than the patronising-ness(!) of good girl

I would agree with this. It doesn't send me into a rage or anything to be told I'm a "good girl" by random strangers and acquaintances, but it still bothers me slightly. I have always felt that you would not say to a man over 18 that he was a "good boy", would you? You'd say he was a "good lad" so "good woman" is on par with that and thus it sounds less demeaning. I will accept the term "good girl" just about from people who are elderly but people who are under 50, or even worse close to my age calling me a "good girl" is bothersome to me. However in a group setting being called "girls" or "the girls" doesn't bother me. Though I can always pick out the charmers in a group when they call a group of women "ladies"

It tough to figure out in those contexts of a group setting whether it is better to address a group of women as girls or ladies.

SpaceTime

I've been told "good boy !" on a few occasions mostly by somewhat deranged elderly people but even so, I just take it that I don't look sufficiently ancient to be "that auld fella" just yet!!

Cold War Kid

Would only be annoyed by it if it were deliberately patronising. Even in professional settings when it's just to be friendly it wouldn't bother me.

dont bother wrote: »

of COURSE people should be allowed say whatever they like.

Verbal abuse to disabled people maybe?

I say what i like, when i like

Absolutely anything at all whatsoever?

and it's not my problem if people are offended. It's their problem. they could choose to NOT be offended, and realise that it's only words and has no bearing on them (or at least, if they had a strong character within themselves, they could choose to ignore it if they want) just as i am allowed to say whatever i choose, when i choose, to whom i choose.

it's the other persons fault if they're offended, not mine.

If it's something really extreme, no, it's your fault. Taking offence isn't always voluntary either.

tritium

Jobs for the boys

Old boys club

Old boys network

Boys toys/ toys for big boys

The boys did well

No, can't ever remember an instance of men been referred to as boys...

Though I do agree that the use of boys/girls in this context iant always meant as a compliment

Precious flower

tritium wrote: »

Jobs for the boys

Old boys club

Old boys network

Boys toys/ toys for big boys

The boys did well

No, can't ever remember an instance of men been referred to as boys...

Though I do agree that the use of boys/girls in this context iant always meant as a compliment

Yes, but what's important here is context. Those terms have no patronising/demeaning history behind them whereas the term girl or "good girl" can have demeaning/sexist undertones and was often using to dismiss a women's input or opinion by suggesting she was young or naive. While old boys/boy's toys have more comrade undertones and most importantly have been used and created by men as opposed to applied to them.

darkpagandeath

kylith wrote: »

The difference is that one is self-identifying in a social context, and the other is being identified as a 'girl', with the immature connotations, in a professional setting.

A street is a professional setting ?

Carlos Orange

Precious flower wrote: »

While old boys/boy's toys have more comrade undertones and most importantly have been used and created by men as opposed to applied to them.

Most times I see old boys used it is as pejorative related to unearned privilege.