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The new, vicious fight

Clandestine

I was watching a video on the indo website, where it showed the "rally for life" - the anti-abortion rally that takes place every year. There was a crowd of about 10,000 there (according to gardai) and of course the pro-choice crowd came with a counter demonstration. I was at the spire with the pro-choice side two or so years ago, and I can sum up the whole thing as "two sides shouting at each other", and it looked no different this year. The gay marriage debate that went on this year got fairly vicious at times, but this is on a whole other level.

What do you guys think, will we see a referendum/debate on the issue after the next gen election or will it remain in limbo? And if there is a referendum, how do you think it will go down?

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[Deleted User]

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'm pro choice but not pro abortion. I'd prefer it legal ( within term limits) but not very common.

I think that's the most common position. Both sides protesting today are fairly nuts.

This resonates with me. I strongly identify as pro choice. But I also strongly identify as anti abortion. I spend as much energy as I can funding and supporting and debating for any and all initiatives that minimize the amount of abortions that happen in the world.

There is a propaganda spin from many "pro life" or as I call them "anti choice" campaigners that "pro choice" means "pro abortion". And I think what they and the world needs to learn is that "pro choice" is probably almost as "anti abortion" as they are in general.

We want abortion to be available to all - because there has been no moral arguments of any note leveled against it - but we want to invest in every idea and initiative out there to ensure it never happens. Most pro choice people do not actually want abortions to happen.

So rather than fight each other over pro or anti abortion - perhaps some day we can accept abortion and work together to find ways to ensure it never happens. Oh the ideal world in my head.

darkpagandeath

Seems fine when people are forced to go to the Uk. Is the Uk the sky wizards blind spot ?

frostyjacks

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Seems fine when people are forced to go to the Uk. Is the Uk the sky wizards blind spot ?

If the Brits all jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?

Not a NSA agent

frostyjacks wrote: »

Have we not already had a referendum on abortion? Respect the people's decision I say.

We have referendums and elections all of the time not respecting the people decision for the last government. If it is still the people's decision then it wont go anywhere.

Herpes Cineplex

RayM wrote: »

What other rights would you extend to foetuses?

I suppose we should be glad that we were allowed to develop to the point, where we can blog on Boards.ie. I'm sure every human foetus that's lying in a clinical waste bag, would have loved similar developmental opportunities.

[Deleted User]

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

I suppose we should be glad that we were allowed to develop to the point, where we can blog on Boards.ie. I'm sure every human foetus that's lying in a clinical waste bag, would have loved similar developmental opportunities.

As would - I dare suspect - the 20% on average miscarriages that nature afford us?

darkpagandeath

frostyjacks wrote: »

If the Brits all jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?

What's that got to do with Irish women being forced over to the Uk to get an abortion. Again it seems fine as long as it does not happen here, Never really hear the sky wizard people complaining about it. Sure should we go back to putting fallen women in places and selling the kids to America.

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

As would - I dare suspect - the 20% on average miscarriages that nature afford us?

And live children can die before reaching 18.

[Deleted User]

Im struggling I have to admit to find the relevance of that.

NachoBusiness

Wasn't in the least bit surprised at all by the sort of people that came out to counter the rally today. Nor indeed, with any of the crap they were shouting. Seen it before and I'm sure I will see it again. Wouldn't mind if they had slogans which countered some of the pro life beliefs or if they said something that was designed to make them sit up and think about something that perhaps they feel they need to, but it was all just the usual feminist drivel about pro life activists really all just being misogynists at heart and not caring if women die, as if these people had no mothers, aunts, sisters, daughters or nieces.

I'd welcome (yet another) referendum on abortion. Would happily vote to repeal the 8th and further, as no issues at all with therapeutic abortions. Nor even with first trimester abortions as it goes but what we had today was really just the usual pro choice crowd pretending to believe in something which they don't and no woman does in this context and that is of course: 'body autonomy'.

Some slogans of note were:

'My body, My Choice, Fuck you'.
'Think Outside My Box'

Charming.

frostyjacks

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What's that got to do with Irish women being forced over to the Uk to get an abortion. Again it seems fine as long as it does not happen here, Never really hear the sky wizard people complaining about it. Sure should we go back to putting fallen women in places and selling the kids to America.

Forced to go to the UK? Really? Is someone putting a gun to their head? This argument that Britain has a law so we should follow their example is really weak. Abortion was put to a popular vote and defeated. Build a bridge.

Mr. CooL ICE

frostyjacks wrote: »

Have we not already had a referendum on abortion? Respect the people's decision I say.

Yeah, we did... in 1983. How many women today of child-bearing age got to vote in that?

[Deleted User]

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Wasn't in the least bit surprised at all by the sort of people that came out to counter the rally today.

Counter rallies on any issue are rarely pretty. Your lack of surprise is - dare I say it - unsurprising

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Wouldn't mind if they had slogans which countered some of the pro life beliefs

I think you will hate me then because I have this really firm "innocent until proven guilty" mentality. So for me everything is ok until someone has a good argument against it.

So given there has been no good pro life arguments - you will forgive my lack of surprise that there has been no good counter arguments

NachoBusiness wrote: »

I'd welcome (yet another) referendum on abortion.

As would I. I think highly contentious issues should be voted on periodically. More fool me

I hate this idea that one vote decides anything for all time. I always feels that any issue that does not gain a VAST majority should be voted on again after a period of time

And I am MORE than happy to have the abortion issue voted on again

dubscottie

At the end of the day any referendum campaign on abortion will end up the same as the gay marriage one.

Religion on one side and sensible people on the other.

The same pro-life groups are the same ones that campaigned for a no vote. And before people ask for proof.. Google it.. (Its not rocket science although some have a problem with the science thing..)

I think we should be having a referendum to remove ALL religion from the constitution. Its 2015 not 1915.

darkpagandeath

frostyjacks wrote: »

Forced to go to the UK? Really? Is someone putting a gun to their head? This argument that Britain has a law so we should follow their example is really weak. Abortion was put to a popular vote and defeated. Build a bridge.

Is anyone putting a gun to the heads of people that don't want to have an abortion to use the service ? Weak example really ? Hows your water charge other countries have it is the core of introducing it.

Public_Enema

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Yeah, we did... in 1983. How many women today of child-bearing age got to vote in that?

So by that logic, we would have to continually repeat every referendum for every new generation. On the basis, that they weren't around to vote when said referendum was originally held.

Not a NSA agent

Public_Enema wrote: »

So by that logic, we would have to continually repeat every referendum for every new generation. On the basis, that they weren't around to vote when said referendum was originally held.

If there is demand for it, why not? Theres a middle ground between all or nothing.

darkpagandeath

Public_Enema wrote: »

So by that logic, we would have to continually repeat every referendum for every new generation. On the basis, that they weren't around to vote when said referendum was originally held.

No just in situations where society has changed enough for the old legislation to be none representative of the current public felling. Like Marriage for example

SmilesInMass

frostyjacks wrote: »

Have we not already had a referendum on abortion? Respect the people's decision I say.

Fairly sure that last referendum was a few short years after condoms became legal, great place Ireland was! Something tells me that the church might have had a nice strong grip over that last referendum.

One eyed Jack

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No just in situations where society has changed enough for the old legislation to be none representative of the current public felling. Like Marriage for example

Has society changed that the current legislation does not reflect current public morality on the issue? I think what's changed is that people who are pro-life, I've met many who argue the right to life of the unborn from a humanitarian perspective, and not a religious one at all.

I don't think you could seriously draw any conclusions from people's opinions on marriage, and use that to gauge people's opinion on abortion. They're two completely different issues. It's falling into the same trap of pigeon holing people again.

I personally think if we were to have a referendum on repealing the 8th in the morning, that it would fail, and not simply on religious grounds either as some people here would presume would be the case.

Canis Lupus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Has society changed that the current legislation does not reflect current public morality on the issue? I think what's changed is that people who are pro-life, I've met many who argue the right to life of the unborn from a humanitarian perspective, and not a religious one at all.

I don't think you could seriously draw any conclusions from people's opinions on marriage, and use that to gauge people's opinion on abortion. They're two completely different issues. It's falling into the same trap of pigeon holing people again.

I personally think if we were to have a referendum on repealing the 8th in the morning, that it would fail, and not simply on religious grounds either as some people here would presume would be the case.

I would have thought society has massively changed in the last couple of decades and yes, gay marriage is a clear indicator of that kind of shift.

I think it's mostly clear from watching the videos that the prochoice were made up of a younger demographic and the prolife had a lot of pensioners. The choice to allow women to have abortions will happen and I can easily see if happening within the next decade or so.

darkpagandeath

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Has society changed that the current legislation does not reflect current public morality on the issue? I think what's changed is that people who are pro-life, I've met many who argue the right to life of the unborn from a humanitarian perspective, and not a religious one at all.

I don't think you could seriously draw any conclusions from people's opinions on marriage, and use that to gauge people's opinion on abortion. They're two completely different issues. It's falling into the same trap of pigeon holing people again.

I personally think if we were to have a referendum on repealing the 8th in the morning, that it would fail, and not simply on religious grounds either as some people here would presume would be the case.

The same crowd blocking marriage are the same crowed blocking this. Or has one forgotten the “Wont someone think of the children.”

One eyed Jack

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I would have thought society has massively changed in the last couple of decades and yes, gay marriage is a clear indicator of that kind of shift.

Marriage equality is an entirely different issue altogether from abortion. Have people's attitudes with regard to abortion changed dramatically? I don't think they have. My point is that nowadays what's actually changed is the motivation for their objection to abortion - what was once a religious issue, is now a humanitarian issue.

I think it's mostly clear from watching the videos that the prochoice were made up of a younger demographic and the prolife had a lot of pensioners. The choice to allow women to have abortions will happen and I can easily see if happening within the next decade or so.

If I were to place any value in videos made by social justice types, I'd be given to think the same way you do. As it happens I spend more time simply talking to people than I do protesting about issues, so while you might see abortion being legislated for in Ireland in the next decade, I'm going to say with equal certainty that I can't see abortion being legislated for in Ireland in my lifetime.

JONJO THE MISER

newmug wrote: »

I was there today.

I was surprised at the viciousness of the counter-rally. Everything was dug up to try and throw at the anti-abortion people, accusations of homophobia, women hating, religious corruption, I even saw a poster along the lines of "Divorce should be a right". It was a complete grasping-at-straws situation. What these people dont seem to realise is that there are gay pro-lifers and atheist pro-lifers too! The issue is abortion, but they tried to make it into a one-size-fits-all liberal v conservative thing.

Something else that surprised me was the type of people in the counter-demonstration. I always assumed that atheists would be wannabee-sophisticated D4 types. What I saw were mostly Gotts and Crusties, for want of a better description. There was one fairly rotund fella there form atheist Ireland, and it was obvious he wasnt the full schilling. I was secretly heartened when I saw the type of people in the counter-demonstration, lets just say they were doing a good job of letting themselves down.

The worst incident I saw was a little he-woman who punched a pensioner. She ran into the crowd, about 3 people in front of me, and pulled a poster off a young boy. She tried to rip it up. The old man who was with the boy stood between them to stop her, and she gave him punch in the face. In fairness, it was fairly light, although it was her max effort. The Guards came running, and suddenly yer one changed from a hard-man lesbian into a damsel in distress, throwing herself to the ground crying trying to implicate the pensioner in some way. The Guards were having none of it though.

I just felt sorry for the boy in the situation. Yer one was a pure scumbag.

HA! I just watched the video, you can see her from 41 to 51 secs, short hair, orange T-shirt! I must have literally just walked by the camera! From the looks of that site, the whole thing is pretty pro-abortion biased.

Hope she gets charged with assault.
Militant left wing fascists, a good beating by the guards is what they would want.

darkpagandeath

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Hope she gets charged with assault.
Militant left wing fascists, a good beating by the guards is what they would want.

Professional protestors don't really have any views they just go from issue to issue. Like IW, Shannon, pylons, wind farms you will see the same faces at those too. Professional protestors are not representative of Pro choice. Did any of them have a fit when the Garda showed up ?

Coillte_Bhoy

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Hope she gets charged with assault.
Militant left wing fascists, a good beating by the guards is what they would want.

So you want the police behaving in a fascist manner by beating up left wing fascists???

Grayson

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Marriage equality is an entirely different issue altogether from abortion. Have people's attitudes with regard to abortion changed dramatically? I don't think they have. My point is that nowadays what's actually changed is the motivation for their objection to abortion - what was once a religious issue, is now a humanitarian issue.

Opinions have changed. Surveys have been done recently and there's a very large swing since 20 years ago. It's roughly 50/50

JONJO THE MISER

dubscottie wrote: »

At the end of the day any referendum campaign on abortion will end up the same as the gay marriage one.

Religion on one side and sensible people on the other.

The same pro-life groups are the same ones that campaigned for a no vote. And before people ask for proof.. Google it.. (Its not rocket science although some have a problem with the science thing..)

I think we should be having a referendum to remove ALL religion from the constitution. Its 2015 not 1915.

Why do you seem to think that it is only religious people who are pro life, im not religious and i oppose it and lots of other people oppose it who are not religious but dont let that get in your way of your spin.
I would agree on your other idea.

JONJO THE MISER

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So you want the police behaving in a fascist manner by beating up left wing fascists???

Anybody that assaults someone like a scumbag deserves to get a good beating, they can be left wing or right wing i dont care.
You cant get your opinion across without resorting to violence and trying to silence other peoples opinions you know.

RedemptionZ

I'm pro choice, but I know plenty of people who aren't and would be pro life(or whatever term should be) and aren't religious at all. All of them would've voted yes on the marriage referendum too. People are allowed to hold other opinions to you and this one is far more defendable than the marriage one imo.