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The 2015 All Ireland Senior Football Championship

[Deleted User]

Now with the league done I think it’s time to start this thread.

Here are my own thoughts

Leinster - Once again it’s a one horse race, Dublin are by far and away the best team in the province, that saw two of it’s teams head down to Div 3 this year, after being in Div 1 last year.
They will be looking to put things right on the AI stage after their loss to Donegal last year.
They have an easy enough run to the final, QF v A side qualifier (possibly Munster loser) and SF v Connaught Champ or B side qualifier

Munster - I think this is a slam dunk for Kerry
Kerry were lucky to a certain extent last year that they did not have to meet Dublin in the final, that’s not saying they had a soft All Ireland, far from it, they had to work very hard in two games v Mayo and v Donegal to win that title, but I somehow don’t think they would have won it had they meet Dublin in the final.
This year, assuming that they win Munster I think they have a very good chance to get to the final, based mainly on the draw.
As I mentioned they (likely) play the Munster final in Killarney, then face a less than taxing QF v the A side qualifier which will likely be one of, Offaly, Longford, Loais, Carlow, Kildare, Clare, Limerick, Sligo, Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Antrim or London.
I am intentionally leaving Dublin out of that list because I doubt they will lose Leinster, plus I would not expect Monaghan to be there either (see below)
Anyway none of that list would trouble Kerry in a QF
Then they play the SF v the Ulster Champs or a B side qualifier, and the B sides will be one of Galway, Letrim, Mayo, Louth, Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow, Meath, Waterford, Tipp, Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Down, Armagh.
That may be a tough one for Kerry depending on how they are when they get to that point, they had an indifferent league campaign and I think they could have problems at the back. The return of Gooch should help their forwards.
But it’s certainly a game they can win so they will be back in an All Ireland.

After seeing Cork in the league final today I think that they have not progressed a single iota from last year.
Getting to the league playoffs is fine but losing by 11 pts at that stage is a much greater indication of your championship capabilities than the 7 league games is, see Mayo 2010 and Cork 2014 for perfect examples of this.
Cork will lose the Munster final, possibly win their 4th Round qualifier v an A side and then lose again to Dublin in the QF.

Connaught - Mayo have a tough opening game in Salthill v Galway (if they get past NY and Leitrim).
It will be Mayo’s first game and Galway 3rd. i would not be surprised if Galway came out winners here but that being said they have a new manager and did not get out of Div II, but on the other had were missing Corifinn players for a good bit of the league.
The loser of this game will have three B side qualifier games before they get to Croke Park, and those may be against the tough northern teams just as easily as they may be against the weaker Leinster teams on the B side.
The winner will likely play Roscommon in the final.
If it’s a Mayo It’d expect them to beat Roscommon, in Castlebar, but I’m not sure how Galway v Roscommon would do.

Mayo really need to win Connaught to have any chance of having another crack at the AI, but even then the path is hard.
QF v B side, likely to be tough nordies (or Galway maybe), and then SF likely v Dublin.
I think Mayo have to ebb like the Cork of the 2000s, they have to just keep sticking at it and something might break in their favour, for five straight years they lost to Kerry in the SF or Final and they eventually won on the 6th attempt v a team that did not expect to be there.
They are a good few years on the road now and based on the league may not have the same vigor as they have had in previous years.
If Ros or Galway win Connaught then I don’t expect they to progress beyond that tough B side QF, they don’t have the big game experience that you need at that level (see Monaghan 2013)

Ulster - Again this year it’s very uneven between the A and the B side. Monaghan and Cavan are the two best on the A side while the B side is much tougher.
I’d expect Monaghan to come through to the final from the A and I have no idea about the B, but possibly Donegal or maybe Armagh, plus the losers in the B will have a really tough qualifier route v other Ulster B siders and Mayo\Galway.
Monaghan have a big opportunity here, they have a decent path to the Ulster final and winning that will help them get back to where they were in 2013. That day lack of big game experience contributed to their loss, and losing the Ulster championship last year put them back a bit as it meant a QF v Dublin, but this year if they win Ulster I think they will have a good chance to get to a SF v Munster Champ or A side qualifier.
Their league SF appearance did them the world of good too.

So in conclusion, the head says Dublin v Kerry final with Dublin winning it, the heart says Mayo v Monaghan with Mayo winning it.

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elefant

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Reaching a bit, but Galway one of few teams to win an All-Ireland through the qualifiers. A year in which they also beat Armagh.

munsterlegend

bucketybuck wrote: »

There was a 10/15 minute period over half time where Dublin, and in particular the half back line, simply switched off and stopped putting any pressure on the ball. One incident in particular stands out, that of McCarthy simply standing and watching as the ball went around him in almost a full square, he didn't even try to lay a hand on it.

Donegal weren't asking any questions at that stage so it wasn't a case of Dublin being unable to respond. It was only later when Donegal realised what was happening that they then really started to apply the pressure. Dublin couldn't get the pace back when that happened, but that wouldn't have happened at all had Dublin not completely stopped playing.

People really do forget just how dominant Dublin were in that first half, they completely destroyed the vaunted Donegal blanket and I bet Jim McGuinness knew it.

I think you'll find Dublin kicked a number of great scores at the start from distance which you can only keep up for so long. Donegal got the breaks yes but Dublin panicked once Donegal got the goal and were clueless in the second half. dublin can destroy anyone kerry included and may well roll over everyone this year but there is nearly always one game where questions are asked

harpsman

slogging...it wrote: »

Didn't Dublin hammer Monaghan in Clones this year Already??
In all seriousness tho Leinster needs Dublin that's the standard of football you have to aspire to achieve, keep Monaghan etc are any of the anti football teams in Ulster I'd rather a hammering of Dublin than taking the reason teams are trying to play in Leinster out of it
On another note I would ask anyone lauding Donegal against Dublin last year watch the match again Dublin had enough chances to have Donegal on the bus at half time and don't start about Monaghan losing to there B team in the league

Yeah and Cork hammered Kerry down in Killarney in the league last year too!!

Do you really think that a dead rubber league match when both teams are already in the semi is a way to measure teams? Really?

Having said that I think Dublin would be winnin up in Ulster just as easy, obviously playing Monaghan in Clones would even it up a bit but Dublin would beat em 8 times out of ten, probably Donegal too.

Also I wish people would stop saying that because Dublin always had a big population but used to be crap then nobody can discuss their advatages now-its a really stupid argument.

Stoner

munsterlegend wrote:

I think you'll find Dublin kicked a number of great scores at the start from distance which you can only keep up for so long.

Not having a go, but this statement seems to be doing the rounds now. Running and chasing back is something you can only do to a level for so long. But kicking decent points is something good teams can maintain. The idea that teams get tired kicking the ball or what ever the rubbish is that brolly in particular has introduced is BS in my option. Dublin and donegal played out a very low scoring game in 2011. Murphy is an expert at long range scores and he'll score them at any stage. The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark. Just like he was about Westmeath yesterday. Also both the lads missed the changes at corner back yesterday and how the backs faced Bray and McMahon during certain stages to block their view of the play so threy couldn't anticipated and make as many of the runs that they made in the first half. The more mobile guys in different positions, things that didn't happen in the first half . Or that meath tired.
Brolly is not capable of making some of the statements he makes. He would need super powers. He makes indepth statements months and years after games have been played painting a deeply tactical and controlled picture of how team set up. Some of it is complete rubbish. He'd have 5 all Irelands in a row as a manager if he actually did correctly call these situations. He's as guiltu at talking up teams as he is at breaking them into nothing.

Many teams win games by making tactical changes, it often happens that other other team can take the foot off the pedal as meath did a bit yesterday.

That's football it goes with you and against you. That's what happened with donegal and Dublin last year. Things developed and played out on the pitch that were part of no plan, and the best team won.
I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.
Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning. Management had a huge impact on the decision last year, much of it by the Dublin manager, he's learning fair play to him. McGuinness learned in 2011, fair play to him.
Hats off to donegal but you have to be realistic at the same time. They are a very good team with great supporters but they are vulnerable to things not going their way too. Otherwise they would have won more. That is the only real type off hindsight statement you can make. Not let things pan our and then fit it into a plan.

Yesterday Kildare were terrible. Brolly and Co were actually amazed and taken back by how Dublin played. I've never seen him that "impressed" that will all go out the window if Dublin fall short. Dunlin were good yesterday, but Kildare were no test. As a result you can only say so much about Dublin. The lads went top far last night

The fact if the matter is that Kildare were terribly. They have better players that either can't or won't play for their manager. Something is badly wrong their. They have spent a lot at underage level,yet the senior team is in free fall.

Their halftime plan was up come out and slow things down get someone sent off, get the game finished and go home. There is a lot more football in Kildare than we saw yesterday. People in Kildare know it, there was no talk about that yesterday either. I thought the after match analysis yesterday was poor for both games.

DoctaDee

Excellent post

munsterlegend

Stoner wrote: »

Not having a go, but this statement seems to be doing the rounds now. Running and chasing back is something you can only do to a level for so long. But kicking decent points is something good teams can maintain. The idea that teams get tired kicking the ball or what ever the rubbish is that brolly in particular has introduced is BS in my option. Dublin and donegal played out a very low scoring game in 2011. Murphy is an expert at long range scores and he'll score them at any stage. The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark. Just like he was about Westmeath yesterday. Also both the lads missed the changes at corner back yesterday and how the backs faced Bray and McMahon during certain stages to block their view of the play so threy couldn't anticipated and make as many of the runs that they made in the first half. The more mobile guys in different positions, things that didn't happen in the first half . Or that meath tired.
Brolly is not capable of making some of the statements he makes. He would need super powers. He makes indepth statements months and years after games have been played painting a deeply tactical and controlled picture of how team set up. Some of it is complete rubbish. He'd have 5 all Irelands in a row as a manager if he actually did correctly call these situations. He's as guiltu at talking up teams as he is at breaking them into nothing.

Many teams win games by making tactical changes, it often happens that other other team can take the foot off the pedal as meath did a bit yesterday.

That's football it goes with you and against you. That's what happened with donegal and Dublin last year. Things developed and played out on the pitch that were part of no plan, and the best team won.
I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.
Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning. Management had a huge impact on the decision last year, much of it by the Dublin manager, he's learning fair play to him. McGuinness learned in 2011, fair play to him.
Hats off to donegal but you have to be realistic at the same time. They are a very good team with great supporters but they are vulnerable to things not going their way too. Otherwise they would have won more. That is the only real type off hindsight statement you can make. Not let things pan our and then fit it into a plan.

Yesterday Kildare were terrible. Brolly and Co were actually amazed and taken back by how Dublin played. I've never seen him that "impressed" that will all go out the window if Dublin fall short. Dunlin were good yesterday, but Kildare were no test. As a result you can only say so much about Dublin. The lads went top far last night

The fact if the matter is that Kildare were terribly. They have better players that either can't or won't play for their manager. Something is badly wrong their. They have spent a lot at underage level,yet the senior team is in free fall.

Their halftime plan was up come out and slow things down get someone sent off, get the game finished and go home. There is a lot more football in Kildare than we saw yesterday. People in Kildare know it, there was no talk about that yesterday either. I thought the after match analysis yesterday was poor for both games.

Donegal's plan surely was not to let Dublin in closer to goal and score the killer goals which they thrive on? any team will try and force a team to kick from distance. dublin kicked some awful wides in the second half from what i recall and could have brought the game back with points but started going for goals.

NabyLadistheman

In fairness to the boys on Newstalk they were very critical of the Kildare management and the way they set-up their team. More tactical analysis than what was offered on RTE that is for sure. Spillane & Brolly waxing lyrical about the Dubs is hardly good info for the viewer to process. Spillane has lost all credibility in my eyes.

bucketybuck

Stoner wrote: »

The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark.

This is the point I was trying to make.

Did Donegal deserve to win last year? Of course they did, they realised what was happening and had the players to take advantage of the situation. But it was no tactical masterplan, and had Dublin not inexplicably stopped pressing the ball Donegal would not have had the chance to grab that advantage.

If that game was a boxing match, it would have been one boxer pounding the crap out of the other for five rounds, but then in round 6 he stops boxing and starts leaning against the ropes. The other boxer is in bits, doesn't know why the first boxer has stopped hitting him, but doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth and starts punching back, eventually winning the fight.

harpsman

LeoB wrote: »

None of the other counties in Leinster have the competition Dublin clubs have for players. FACT. You take club on south side like Ballyboden, Kilmacud or Cuala and Rugby are the big games with twice as many Rugby clubs as G.A.A. and schools Rugby is also huge. Go to west and north Dublin, Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown, Finglas, Ballymun and Cabra and Soccer is a major sport with rugby a growing game and thats before you include any other sports but the competition for players from Rugby and soccer has to be seen to be believed.

Dublin G.A.A. does not have the pick of all the kids but what it has is a very good structure in terms of coaching and development. It doesnt work every year but players will come through if you stick with it.

There were no groans from people in 1990's or early 2000's when Dublin were down the pecking order behind Meath and at other times behind Laois or Westmeath. Meath, Kildare and Laois have not put the work into their structures and they dont have the challenges Dublin or Dublin clubs have to face.

No, its not a fact. North and East Donegal to take one example is soccer country. In Cork gaelic football is very much the poor relation.

Its just as well for their own sake that the big Dublin clubs have a bit of competition from other sports-they can barely cope with the amount of kids they have as it is .200 u12s in Kilmacud-God its a wonder the poor creturs can field a team at all :P

An Ciarraioch

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'd agree Wexford would have a chance in a close game

Derry were poor to be honest v Donegal in Donegal clearly were just going through the motions and wanted to win with out a fuss as monaghan are waiting and armagh and Tyrone they had peaked for they couldn't afford to be so good again in the minefield of ulster

The poor passing with a kick straight out over the side line the poor wides and when they were two up with ten to go they never wanted or showed a desire to drive on like Dublin or kerry and win hugely and it's under standsble as unlike kerry and Dublin that have not lot huge games Donegal had a tough championship

Donegal are on the go for five years and I'm surprised their looking fresh but that is down to Gallagher who is doing good
Donegal could have won this game by ten points they wanted to but just wanted to keep ball and close it out so derry were saved a huge beating

Cork only hope Sunday is kerry who I suspect will do the same win with out going through the full peak and won't want to show their full hand
Derry are poorer than Saturday night showed

An interesting point on the Munster Final is that the losers will play the Leinster champions if they win their last-12 tie. One might see Kerry possibly beating Dublin in September, but not with off-peak fitness, so for once the provincial title effectively becomes an eliminator.

Ceist_Beag

bucketybuck wrote: »

This is the point I was trying to make.

Did Donegal deserve to win last year? Of course they did, they realised what was happening and had the players to take advantage of the situation. But it was no tactical masterplan, and had Dublin not inexplicably stopped pressing the ball Donegal would not have had the chance to grab that advantage.

If that game was a boxing match, it would have been one boxer pounding the crap out of the other for five rounds, but then in round 6 he stops boxing and starts leaning against the ropes. The other boxer is in bits, doesn't know why the first boxer has stopped hitting him, but doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth and starts punching back, eventually winning the fight.

That's a bit of a simplification of what happened tbf. There was an element of things happening on the pitch but there was certainly also a tactical plan which played a part in it. Donegal knew Dublin would go man for man and took advantage of that to move Dublin players where they wanted them. Obviously the Dublin goal chance missed and the subsequent Donegal goal before half time meant the mental side of both teams came into the equation and there is no doubt that Donegal won in part because mentally they were stronger than Dublin but to say that management tactics played no part in the win is wrong.

harpsman

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its not nonsense, whats nonsense is the revisionism surrounding that game.

Some people now like to pretend Donegal had a genius masterplan that day, that they knew how to handle the dubs and that the gameplan worked perfectly.

And its all rubbish. Dublin had Donegal absolutely beaten out the gate, they were spanking them all around the field and had they taken even just a few more of their chances the game would have been over long before half time. Then for some reason Dublin stopped pressing in their defence and over the next 15 minutes Donegal realised they had far too much time and space and finally started going for crucial scores.

Masterplan my hole, Dublin could and should have put a cricket score on Donegal just the same as Mayo had done previously, instead they switched off and handed Donegal the win. I have no doubt whatsoever that McGuiness and the Donegal team couldn't believe their luck that day, because if Dublin hadn't stopped playing they would have been on the end of a serious hiding.

Wow-somebody sounds bitter about Donegal.

Sure Dublin had 2 goal chances early on but they also kicked 3 or 4 spectacular long range points which on another day might go wide so 9 points to 4 was a reasonably fair reflection of play after 20 minutes-when the bookies had the spread at 15 points.

Also if you think getting a couple of breaks before beating a team who were 6-1 on by six points mean you didnt have a tactical plan which worked then youre even more clueless than your post suggests.

DoctaDee

munsterlegend wrote: »

Donegal's plan surely was not to let Dublin in closer to goal and score the killer goals which they thrive on? any team will try and force a team to kick from distance. dublin kicked some awful wides in the second half from what i recall and could have brought the game back with points but started going for goals.

This is also quite true - it wasn't the fact that they couldn't maintain kicking points from distance - but that they couldn't kick them from straight in front of the posts (a Brogan free comes to mind) -

It was alluded to yesterday but if you put Dublins mindset in context (forget the Leinster championship), they had just come off a 17 point drubbing of the 2nd best team in Ulster - a team that had given Donegal enough problems of their own, Dublin started where they left off and continued with that courage of conviction when the on field dynamic of the game had changed - it was naive.

From chatting to a few lads involved - they'd worked on the whole aspect of breaking down the blanket defence for a good few months prior - the fact of the matter was they showed quite brilliantly against Monaghan how to do it - but in an ironical way they totally underestimated/neglected how best to defend against the blanket defence and were ruthlessly exposed.

I know we're talking about a league game in March - but I saw enough from Donegals movement that night to suggest that they'll pose the same problems this time round should things pan out the way I assume they will.

harpsman

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

They had a few years there that they were terrible in the qualifiers but in the last 2 years they have got to a QF and Rnd 4.

I think that they realize that wile Mayo are so dominant in Connacht they need to use the qualifiers for their own improvement

They only had to beat Tipp and Sligo to get to quarters last year.
In fairness they beat Armagh 2 years ago but it really was the battle of 2 teams at their lowest ebb for about 50 years!

bucketybuck

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

That's a bit of a simplification of what happened tbf. There was an element of things happening on the pitch but there was certainly also a tactical plan which played a part in it. Donegal knew Dublin would go man for man and took advantage of that to move Dublin players where they wanted them. Obviously the Dublin goal chance missed and the subsequent Donegal goal before half time meant the mental side of both teams came into the equation and there is no doubt that Donegal won in part because mentally they were stronger than Dublin but to say that management tactics played no part in the win is wrong.

Donegals tactical plan did not work, they were getting absolutely hockied by Dublin and should easily been out of sight.

I have no problem saying that Donegal were excellent in recognising and reacting to Dublin when they did switch off, and then pushing on at the right time, but it certainly wasn't any masterplan that got them to that point. Another poster talked about Donegal denying Dublin goal chances but again, they didn't, Dublin were waltzing through them at times. That they wasted those chances wasn't due to a plan, just due to the luck that often comes in games.

bucketybuck

harpsman wrote: »

Wow-somebody sounds bitter about Donegal.

Sure Dublin had 2 goal chances early on but they also kicked 3 or 4 spectacular long range points which on another day might go wide so 9 points to 4 was a reasonably fair reflection of play after 20 minutes-when the bookies had the spread at 15 points.

Also if you think getting a couple of breaks before beating a team who were 6-1 on by six points mean you didnt have a tactical plan which worked then youre even more clueless than your post suggests.

Sometimes all you can say is :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

From the few posts I have read some of the posters here would put brolly and Spillane out of a job great analysis. As for the Dublin resources thing could all the money from Leinster teams be pooled? Then given out on a sliding scale from the most impoverished to the wealthiest last. It's how the EU does it.

Ceist_Beag

bucketybuck wrote: »

Another poster talked about Donegal denying Dublin goal chances but again, they didn't, Dublin were waltzing through them at times. That they wasted those chances wasn't due to a plan, just due to the luck that often comes in games.

Ah here, who's rewriting history now? Dublin wasted one, just one, good goal chance in the first half. Waltzing through, I don't think so! Absolutely, they kicked some magnificent points from distance but they certainly were not waltzing through and how about you give Donegal some credit for the "inexplicable" reason Dublin stopped pressing - maybe there was something in what Donegal did that caused that!

North of 32

Stoner wrote: »

I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.

I just have to disagree. The points Dublin were scoring early in the first half were exactly the type of scoring opportunities Donegal would be "happy" to give Dublin, because it means they're shooting from the 45 and not around the arc, or near the goal. You're never going to stop Dublin creating scoring opportunities, but you can try to limit them to certain types of scoring opportunities ie. lower percentage shots. Similar strategies exist in basketball. If a player is a dreadful shooter, defenders simply back off and make him take the shot. Even if he scores, statistically he is not likely to maintain a high conversion rate. If he's 20% from 3-point range, but deadly driving to the basket, which opportunity are you going to give him? Of course, Dublin certainly could have maintained a high conversion rate from distance. It's a risk to allow them to shoot from distance but it's a better risk than closing them down and leaving space behind for goal opportunities.

Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning.

Not sure I understand this point. Crucial members of the squad barely trained in 2013 because of injury, including Karl Lacey and Neil Gallagher. The stat is around somewhere but they both missed around 80% of the sessions. I don't think the loss to Mayo was due to errors in strategy. It had more to do with Mayo being excellent and key Donegal players simply not having trained enough.

bucketybuck

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

maybe there was something in what Donegal did that caused that!

Was it the mystical Donegal gameplan that stopped McCarthy and others pressing the ball around the half back line?

Its vague claims like that from Brolly that started this discussion and I'll say it again, Donegal did not manoeuvre themselves into a position where they could win, they just found themselves there and took full advantage. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realise that it wasn't because of any gameplan, it was because Dublin gave it to them.

keane2097

The Dublin - Donegal match I would say is somewhere in the middle of the two positions being taken here.

Dublin could have been miles ahead if they had taken their first half goal chances, but were only as far ahead as they were because they managed an extraordinary return on a load of Hail Mary shots in the first half.

Teams frequently manage to create goal chances against Donegal so I don't think that represents any sort of system failure really.

If say Connolly and Flynn had kicked three or four wides between them out of the long range shots they took in the first half those two goal chances wouldn't be so remarkable as they are remembered.

Kerry, for instance, got two goals against Donegal, had one terrible miss for another goal and one or two further half chances, but kicked a load of wides - I don't think anyone would say Donegal had a systems failure in the final.

Giving up two good goal chances to Dublin (who created something like 12 against Monaghan in the previous game IIRC) is hardly a sign that you're falling apart. It was only the ridiculous points the wing forwards got that made it look like that.

harpsman

Stoner wrote: »

Not having a go, but this statement seems to be doing the rounds now. Running and chasing back is something you can only do to a level for so long. But kicking decent points is something good teams can maintain. The idea that teams get tired kicking the ball or what ever the rubbish is that brolly in particular has introduced is BS in my option. Dublin and donegal played out a very low scoring game in 2011. Murphy is an expert at long range scores and he'll score them at any stage. The idea that brolly is trying to paint that donegal had it 100% in the bag from the get go is rubbish. They fully deserved the win last year but they did not say that from the start that "let the Dubs use up their long range scores early on" there was a switch off from the Dubs, Donegal made some switches got momentum the better team won.

But calling everything that happened in that game as part of a 100% master plan as Brolly does is off the mark. Just like he was about Westmeath yesterday. Also both the lads missed the changes at corner back yesterday and how the backs faced Bray and McMahon during certain stages to block their view of the play so threy couldn't anticipated and make as many of the runs that they made in the first half. The more mobile guys in different positions, things that didn't happen in the first half . Or that meath tired.
Brolly is not capable of making some of the statements he makes. He would need super powers. He makes indepth statements months and years after games have been played painting a deeply tactical and controlled picture of how team set up. Some of it is complete rubbish. He'd have 5 all Irelands in a row as a manager if he actually did correctly call these situations. He's as guiltu at talking up teams as he is at breaking them into nothing.

Many teams win games by making tactical changes, it often happens that other other team can take the foot off the pedal as meath did a bit yesterday.

That's football it goes with you and against you. That's what happened with donegal and Dublin last year. Things developed and played out on the pitch that were part of no plan, and the best team won.
I seriously doubt at any stage that donegal planned to sit out Dublins long point kicking phase because no team can keep that up.
Donegal changed things up. And a management that sent a team out a year before against Mayo for an obliteration is not capable of such planning. Management had a huge impact on the decision last year, much of it by the Dublin manager, he's learning fair play to him. McGuinness learned in 2011, fair play to him.
Hats off to donegal but you have to be realistic at the same time. They are a very good team with great supporters but they are vulnerable to things not going their way too. Otherwise they would have won more. That is the only real type off hindsight statement you can make. Not let things pan our and then fit it into a plan.

Yesterday Kildare were terrible. Brolly and Co were actually amazed and taken back by how Dublin played. I've never seen him that "impressed" that will all go out the window if Dublin fall short. Dunlin were good yesterday, but Kildare were no test. As a result you can only say so much about Dublin. The lads went top far last night

The fact if the matter is that Kildare were terribly. They have better players that either can't or won't play for their manager. Something is badly wrong their. They have spent a lot at underage level,yet the senior team is in free fall.

Their halftime plan was up come out and slow things down get someone sent off, get the game finished and go home. There is a lot more football in Kildare than we saw yesterday. People in Kildare know it, there was no talk about that yesterday either. I thought the after match analysis yesterday was poor for both games.

By and large you re fairly correct there. Particularly about Brolly ****in on about how Donegal plan for everything.
However the point about the long range kicking I think he was making is that shots from that distance are a bit of a lottery and also Dublin did try a few later on in the first half which went badly wrong-giving the Donegal team and supporters a huge lift-one Paul Flynn attempt didnt even reach the 13m line so you cant say good players will kick long range points all day- if they could then why did Dublin stop doing it?

The main reason Dublin lost last year is that they completely dropped their intensity after 20 minutes and let Donegal walk in a few handy scores to get them back in the game followed by defending for the 2nd and 3rd goals that schoolboys would be embarrassed by. But it was still a masterclass by McGuinness and Donegal to take advantage.

Plus the Mayo game in 13 is a bit of a red herring as Donegal were dead on their feet as can happen to teams the year after winning an all ireland when it doesnt happen very often unless your a county that get to play all your games at home.

keane2097

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was it the mystical Donegal gameplan that stopped McCarthy and others pressing the ball around the half back line?

Its vague claims like that from Brolly that started this discussion and I'll say it again, Donegal did not manoeuvre themselves into a position where they could win, they just found themselves there and took full advantage. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realise that it wasn't because of any gameplan, it was because Dublin gave it to them.

I would have said taking advantage of teams over-committing to attack and not minding the house at the back is the gameplan.

You're talking about an incident in which James McCarthy failed to press the ball as it was moved in a square around him, which makes it sound like there were four players bearing down on a single, stranded half back and concluding that a lack of effort on the part of the half-back was the problem.

I don't know the exact incident you're talking about but to say Donegal fell into a situation like that unknowns to themselves sounds wrong.

DoctaDee

The flip side of Dublins profligacy in front of goals was Donegals conversion rate that day. I recall a statto posting Donegals conversion in excess of 80% which was the highest ever return since they started all these stats. Most Dublin supporters are happy to box off that Donegal game for what it was - and this years campaign is looking to address those short comings

Boom__Boom

keane2097 wrote: »

The Dublin - Donegal match I would say is somewhere in the middle of the two positions being taken here.

Dublin could have been miles ahead if they had taken their first half goal chances, but were only as far ahead as they were because they managed an extraordinary return on a load of Hail Mary shots in the first half.

Teams frequently manage to create goal chances against Donegal so I don't think that represents any sort of system failure really.

If say Connolly and Flynn had kicked three or four wides between them out of the long range shots they took in the first half those two goal chances wouldn't be so remarkable as they are remembered.

Kerry, for instance, got two goals against Donegal, had one terrible miss for another goal and one or two further half chances, but kicked a load of wides - I don't think anyone would say Donegal had a systems failure in the final.

Giving up two good goal chances to Dublin (who created something like 12 against Monaghan in the previous game IIRC) is hardly a sign that you're falling apart. It was only the ridiculous points the wing forwards got that made it look like that.

Pretty sure Dont Foul has some stuff on the low number of goal chances Donegal let teams have.

Found this about the final

Kerry had four shots at goal scoring 2-01.Although one of those shots was laid on a plate that is still not an insignificant achievement. The volume of goal shots allowed by Donegal this year was 1, 0, 2, 1 & 5 (vs the Dublin goal machine). In fact the only other teams to produce more than three goal shots since the start of 2012 are the aforementioned Dublin and Mayo in the 2013 quarter final rout.

Also his stats on the Donegal dublin semi (ignore the title of the URL) seeing as everyone seems to be discussing it.

https://dontfoul.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/kerry-v-mayo-replay-2014-championship-2/

gormdubhgorm

As a dub. I will admit Dublin were out thought on the side line last year v Donegal in AI. I was at the game. Dublin could not keep up the long range kicking and all out attacking. Mcgunness was very clever playing midfielders further forward as battering rams to hit ball to. The player who came on and changed the game was toye. When Dublin went behind they panicked b brogan was honest enough to admit it.

Jim Gavin was tactically stuborn . I will never understand how bastick stayed on the bench. A tailor made game for him. In saying all that though Dublin still could have won the game if the goal chances from connolly and b brogan went in.
People seem to forget that Donegal gathered momentum like Westmeath yesterday. While Dublin were rattled like Meath.
Anyone who says the sideline choices tactical choices do not contribute to such momentum is either blind or a lier.
Gavin learnt his lesson and has now tweaked his tactics as shown by the Kildare game yesterday. Defend at the right times then break but not too hung ho. Fewest goals conceced in div 1 and a league title victory again prove it.

bucketybuck

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Anyone who says the sideline choices tactical choices do not contribute to such momentum is either blind or a lier.

Good job nobody is saying that then.

gormdubhgorm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Good job nobody is saying that then.

That is what seems to be implied that Donegal had no game plan , some are saying. it was obvious they did and it wore dublin down.Dublin's gameplan was long range points and it worked for about 20mins.

bucketybuck

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is what seems to be implied Donegal had no game plan some are saying it was obvious they did and it wore dublin down.Dublin's gameplan was long range points and it worked for about 20mins.

Donegals gameplan did not wear Dublin down. Dublin were well able to cope with Donegals initial gameplan and as such that game could easily have been over at halftime. You are taking the final result and happily believing that it must have been Donegals plan all along, just as Brolly did.

Donegals initial gameplan simply did not work. Now, the tactical adjustments once they realised Dublin were standing off them in the 2nd half are a different matter. They worked and were exactly what they needed to do once they assessed the situation.

intellectual dosser

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was it the mystical Donegal gameplan that stopped McCarthy and others pressing the ball around the half back line?

Its vague claims like that from Brolly that started this discussion and I'll say it again, Donegal did not manoeuvre themselves into a position where they could win, they just found themselves there and took full advantage. Nothing wrong with that as long as they realise that it wasn't because of any gameplan, it was because Dublin gave it to them.

This is laughable.

If you're on the boil a bit having to respond to people here then I understand, but if you actually thought this was true then surely Jim Gavin would have been relieved of his duties shortly after?