RainyDay wrote: » Which approach do you recommend? or perhapshttp://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=41250118
StewartGriffin wrote: » We're discussing the introduction of a theory test for cyclists. Why are you listing the names and circumstances of people killed on the roads?
smash wrote: » Ironic given that it's exactly what you're doing in relation to issues involving cyclists.
The Dark Side wrote: » Came across another muppet cyclist this morning on the Quays. He seemed to be labouring under the impression that sticking his arm out to turn right conferred some magical right-of-way powers onto him and allowed him to weave across the road directly in front of me. A prolonged beep of the horn soon reminded him that I had right of way and he was to remain in the left lane until he actually had a gap to move over. The glare and gesture he gave me in the side window was priceless. I laughed back and him, proffered him the middle-finger and continued on my way.
RainyDay wrote: » Have I not mentioned this before? Yes, cyclists do break traffic laws and I'm sure they probably cause an injury or two. They don't kill anyone, and they don't figure in injury statistics as significant.
RainyDay wrote: » The folks who work on transport policy, and the legislators who work on transport law, and the Gardai who work on transport enforcement all cover motorists and cyclists. So any focus on 'safety' initiatives for cyclists (who don't kill anyone on the road) will take resources away from safety initiatives for motorists (who kill 200+ people each year and maim thousands of others).
Grandpa Hassan wrote: » you have to signal and go.
smash wrote: » Just google 'cyclist kills pedestrian' and you'll find that you're wrong again.
smash wrote: » While they may cover motorists and cyclists, they rarely enforce the laws upon cyclists.
The Dark Side wrote: » A prolonged beep of the horn
The Dark Side wrote: » I laughed back and him, proffered him the middle-finger and continued on my way.
MadDog76 wrote: » I'd personally rather live in a society were we don't just ignore illegal acts because it's convenient.
RainyDay wrote: » These are real people dying on the roads. People like 30 year old Linda Griffin, killed by a 21-year-old male motorist while walking home at 1.30 am in Wexford last week. People like Enda Wickham, the 22 year old young man killed when his own car hit a ditch in Wexford last week. Or the 22 year old man killed when his tractor hit a ditch in Cork last week. Or the 60 year old man killed in Laois when his car collided with another car last week. Or the 55 year old man killed on the N17 when his car was hit by another car. If you want to look over the border, we could talk about the 5 year old girl killed by a car in Co Down. These are real people, with real families.
RainyDay wrote: » Have I not mentioned this before? Because the folks who work on transport policy, and the legislators who work on transport law, and the Gardai who work on transport enforcement all cover motorists and cyclists. So any focus on 'safety' initiatives for cyclists (who don't kill anyone on the road) will take resources away from safety initiatives for motorists (who kill 200+ people each year and maim thousands of others)
RainyDay wrote: » Try googling with Country = Ireland and Timescale = last ten years, and watch the tumbleweed blowing across your screen.
RainyDay wrote: » In the meantime, three or four thousand people were killed by motorists.
RainyDay wrote: » Yes, I agree. They do rarely enforce the laws upon cyclists. Or upon motorists. YOUTUBE LINK
StewartGriffin wrote: » You're deliberately avoiding the question I'm asking, that being why you think it's appropriate to use the names and circumstances of individuals killed on the road as props in your argument against introducing a theory test for cyclists? A disgusting debating tactic in my opinion.
smash wrote: » Oh ok, we're changing goalposts again.
smash wrote: » Again, it's not what we're discussing. But you know as well as anyone else that a machine that weights around 1.5 tonnes is inevitably going to cause more damage, especially when there's more of them on the road than there are bicycles.
smash wrote: » There's hundreds of thousands pumped every year into driver safety and education and numbers for deaths are decreasing so it's obviously working. Suggesting that there should be advances in cyclist safety and education is reasonable in my opinion and it should not be diluted by statistics from motorists.
smash wrote: » Suggesting that there should be advances in cyclist safety and education is reasonable in my opinion and it should not be diluted by statistics from motorists.
smash wrote: » Whoever shot that is an idiot. Disregarding the colour of the lights, you should only cross when it's safe to do so. Seems like this clown is just looking for an insurance claim.
RainyDay wrote: » Thanks for bringing forward a very important issue. Many people treat deaths on the road as inevitable. But they're not - they are largely avoidable. If motorists will slow down, stop drinking and drugging and drive like it's YOUR child on the bike in front, most of these deaths are avoidable. They're not 'accidents'.
RainyDay wrote: » It's great to see the numbers decreasing all right, but I'm not as clear as to the cause of this decrease as yourself. You attribute it to driver safety and education - but what about increased enforcement (like random breath tests) and increased vehicle safety (with better brakes and air bags). There are lots of reasons for the decrease.
RainyDay wrote: » I'm not sure that your opinion (or my opinion) is a good reason for changing public policy. How about some evidence?
RainyDay wrote: » I think you've missed the point of the video somewhat. It's like you're wearing blinkers.
check_six wrote: » We were discussing this kind of scenario on another thread, but from the perspective of a car turning across a bike track. The same rules apply, but there was a bit of confusion expressed. A driver was under the impression that the person in the bike track had to give way to traffic turning across them. Clearly, the vehicles heading straight on have right of way and the vehicles turning must wait. Unfortunately, there are some bike tracks where the road engineers have thought it a good idea to jumble this concept around and try to take right of way away from the bikes heading straight on. This is a very dangerous design philosophy. Imagine if vehicles in the outside lane could swing across you and you were expected to give way. This is why some bike tracks are just not safe to cycle in, which seems contradictory to the untrained eye. Making a right hand turn on a bike is tricky at the best of times as many cyclists will not have the skills or the confidence to "take the lane" to make a gap for themselves. Some parts of the quays have been made a bit easier with the 30kph limit, but as we know this is not strictly adhered to by all motor traffic. Indicating does not give anyone a right of way, but sometimes it's nice to let someone out rather than have a confrontation. The good bit of the karmic wheel will tend to pay you back sooner rather than later.
(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken— (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle, (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,
Spook_ie wrote: » Incorrect, there are SPECIFIC circumstances when turning left that place the obligation on traffic going straight to yield the RoW. SI332/2012 specificly states
Pinch Flat wrote: » But wasn't the scenario above different - the cyclist was ahead of the motorist attempting to turning left. The scenario your quoted is for cyclists coming up the inside left of cars at junctions - the drivers indicating has the right of way As pointed out above, the patch work of cycling lanes can make some on these manoeuvres dangerous for a cyclist if they were to strictly follow the cycle lane. Anyway there's the law and there's common respect for other road users - I'm sure blaring the horn and flipping a finger as you pass them is not set out in traffic legislation or the ROR either
Spook_ie wrote: » Don't know which thread he's referring to, but as stated there are specific laws and circumstances where the RoW lies with the turning vehicle.
smash wrote: » They are inevitable. There will never be a zero death toll.
smash wrote: » But like you've admitted, there's never any statistics to say out straight who's at fault in these accidents. I think it was RSA that released a report which stated that 33% of the accidents involving bicycles outside of daylight hours involved cyclists who did not have lights on their bikes. Others said it contradicted police reports (where made), but RSA claims dept had admittance of liability from the cyclists. So in a nutshell, unless taken seriously and reported correctly for statistical purposes we'll never know.
smash wrote: » No, I saw the cyclists and motorists breaking the lights, but that doesn't take away from the actions of whoever filmed it.
RainyDay wrote: » Why?
RainyDay wrote: » Let's not confuse two issues. I think the RSA report you mention was about incidents involving cyclists. If we look at the death toll on the roads, the number of deaths involving cyclists is very small - 12 out of 200 or similar last year - around 5%. So even if we assumed that ALL of those incidents were the fault of the cyclist (and that's a bit assumption), that leaves 95% of incidents that were not the fault of cyclists. So why on earth would you focus your attention now on the 5% instead of the 95%?
RainyDay wrote: » And you reckon the important message from the video relates to the possible actions of the videographer (though you can't actually see what he did or didn't do), and not the large number of dangerous motor vehicles breaking the lights/law?
Spook_ie wrote: » Incorrect, there are SPECIFIC circumstances when turning left that place the obligation on traffic going straight to yield the RoW. SI332/2012 specificly states (b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken— (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,
(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken— (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,
smash wrote: » Because we're talking about the 5%, not the 95% which is already a steadily falling figure.
You can clearly see what they did, which was to start crossing as traffic was approaching. Traffic even had to stop before hitting them. And given the amount of times filmed at that one particular crossing, and the amount of times there were near misses, it's almost as if the videographer wanted to be hit.
CramCycle wrote: » I think most of the time the videographer waited until traffic had fully past, on the one or two times they walked out, the cars had nearly completely gone past, not sure what video you were watching.
CramCycle wrote: » It is sad that Joe Public feels the need to highlight an issue which shoul dnot exist with a camera rather than just throwing up a red light camera, 30 days later you will find the number of light jumpers has dropped tremendously, next, identify the times of day where cyclists jump that light most, have stills from the camera and, being creatures of habit, pick up a large number of recurrent RLJers, do this on a few random mornings but do it down the road from the junction.
rubadub wrote: » Have you bothered to ask any gardai why they are not enforcing the law? I doubt they would tell you it's solely because its convenient. I would hate to live in a society where every illegal act is chased after by the gardai. It would be an appalling waste of resources chasing down every 5 year old on their tricycle on a footpath, and pedestrians illegally crossing a totally empty road. There is going to be €50 on the spot fines for cyclists at the end of the summer -motorists can expect longer car journeys because of this. There is talk of having traffic lights that allow cyclists to go first, further delaying motorists. The hate for cyclists is going to increase a lot more, because they are obeying the law. Expect a lot more to cycle on the roads rather than cycle on what are apparently cycletracks - as many are techinically footpaths due to incorrect signage.http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rogue-cyclists-facing-50-fine-for-breaking-red-lights-31303040.html
RainyDay wrote: » Actually, I thought your question was rhetorical, but if you want an answer, that's fine. I thought the answer was fairly clear from the context. I used real names because MadDog seemed to think there was something funny about 200 people being killed each year. Use of real names and real people just might persuade him to think twice.
