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[Constitutional Convention][7][28 Sept 2013] Voting Rights for Citizens Abroad

RangeR

Greetings. My name is Keith Burke. I'm from Kildare. I was chosen to be one of the 66 citizens of Ireland to represent the wider citizen base in the Constitutional Convention. Some broad information can be found here. It looks mostly accurate

I'm not an expert in law, the constitution or politics. I want to educate myself in the various proposals to better allow myself discuss it on the day. I also want to hear what the wider citizen base think about the proposals.

The Convention are meeting on September 28th and 29th 2013 to discuss the seventh issue put to us.

Voting Rights for Citizens Abroad

The Irish Constitution URL="https://www.constitution.ie/Documents/Bhunreacht_na_hEireann_web.pdf"]PDF[/URL currently states [excluding articles not directly related to this, ie secret ballot, single vote per citizen etc]

Article 16.1.2 wrote:

i All citizens, and
ii such other persons in the State as may be determined by law,

without distinction of sex who have reached the age of eighteen years who are not disqualified by law and comply with the provisions of the law relating to the election of members of Dáil Éireann,shall have the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann.

Article 28A.4 wrote:

Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann and such other persons as may be determined by law shall have the right to vote at an election for members of such of the local authorities referred to in section 2 of this Article asshall be determined by law

Article 47.3 wrote:

Every citizen who has the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at a Referendum

In general terms, a citizen is a native or naturalized member of Ireland. Is that even a good enough definition?

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything in the Constitution restricting Citizens Abroad from voting. Unless the courts have interpreted and ruled it as so.

I welcome your comments. Discuss.

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RangeR

eMail in. We are starting [and finishing] 15 minutes early on Saturday.

Hi everyone,

Please find attached the latest version of the running order for the weekend of 28th & 29th September, along with the four papers from our expert advisors.

Anyone who has not already confirmed their attendance & hotel accommodation requirements, please contact me as soon as possible.

We look forward to seeing you soon.

Regards,

Amy

RangeR

eMail in.

Please find attached:
- The latest version of the running order for the weekend – there may be a few small tweaks but we’re pretty much there;

- The results of our global online survey. During the summer we developed a questionnaire as part of our attempt to engage with the diaspora on this issue. We had over 5,000 visitors to the site and just short of half of them completed the survey, representing the views of Irish citizens in 64 countries (literally an A-Z, from Afghanistan to Zambia)…….each of the speakers in our videolink discussion will present their own country’s results as part of their presentation to us on Saturday morning.

Notwithstanding the huge response, Noreen Bowden from GlobalIrish.ie raised some concerns about the provocative (and even sometimes unclear) nature of some of the survey questions. In my response to this query, I said that the nature of such surveys is that it is almost impossible to position questions in such a way as to contain every nuance in people's opinions. The subjective nature of opinion polls and the importance of presenting all sides of the argument to the Convention members meant that some of the questions were necessarily provocative, designed to generate strong responses in some cases. However, we were very sensitive to this when analysing the results. I also said that I would be happy to attach the specific nature of these concerns to the survey results and Noreen’s submission can be viewed at the Submissions part of the website.

We’ll have one more (short) briefing tomorrow morning from Colin Harvey on the legal and constitutional position pertaining to Northern Ireland.

If you need anything else, please drop me a line…….

Looking forward to seeing you all again at the weekend…….

Kindest regards,

expectationlost

did the ccven discuss how many people they'd be giving the presidential vote to

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

did the ccven discuss how many people they'd be giving the pesidential vote to

Yes, between Northern Ireland and rest of world, it was estimated to be around the 3 million mark.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

Yes, between Northern Ireland and rest of world, it was estimated to be around the 3 million mark.

the same size as the existing electorate and you guys said yes to this? http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2011P&cons=194

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

Yes, between Northern Ireland and rest of world, it was estimated to be around the 3 million mark.

which one of these vieos covered that http://www.youtube.com/user/ConstitutionIe/videos do youknow pls thks

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

which one of these vieos covered that http://www.youtube.com/user/ConstitutionIe/videos do youknow pls thks

I actually can't remember. However, I can narrow it down later. I have a list of the panel that specifically talked about NI. Its at home.

From memory, between 1 and 2 million passport holders are in NI. Im almost sure someone said 1.9 million. The rest around the world.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

I actually can't remember. However, I can narrow it down later. I have a list of the panel that specifically talked about NI. Its at home.

From memory, between 1 and 2 million passport holders are in NI. Im almost sure someone said 1.9 million. The rest around the world.

looked it up the 2011 electorate was 1.2 million http://www.eoni.org.uk/getmedia/e8daff98-3a41-483e-b5dd-4860585d28f4/NI-Assembly-Election-2011-Turnout

about 55% of voters voted for SF/SDLP so may be most likely to vote if given the chance, so 600,000 and they account for turnout in that.

munchkin_utd

expectationlost wrote: »

looked it up the 2011 electorate was 1.2 million http://www.eoni.org.uk/getmedia/e8daff98-3a41-483e-b5dd-4860585d28f4/NI-Assembly-Election-2011-Turnout

about 55% of voters voted for SF/SDLP so may be most likely to vote if given the chance, so 600,000 and they account for turnout in that.

the question would be how someone abroad (incl the cases of NI and GB) be elligible to vote and/ or prove their irish citizenship.

You could have it that they prove their irish citizenship in the form of submitting a birth cert which shows they were born in Northern Ireland but to be honest thats not much different to the application for a passport so why not simply make that the criteria as then you also have a rock solid identity check too. And you then have the same rules for Northern Ireland as rest of UK as rest of the world.
By limiting it to Irish passport holders, you are limiting the vote to those who actively make the choice to be seen as irish but that also reduces the pool of potential voters which would asuade any nervousness of people thinking Ian Paisley will be voted the next Irish president or anything.

RangeR

Sorry for the previous short replies. I was pre-occupied.

I went into the weekend not knowing what way to think. On the one hand, I don't want multi generation diaspora dictating on how our country is run. On the other hand, if I ever had to leave the country for a few years, wanted a say in how my country was run. A poxy moron indeed, but that is the nature of life. People, generally, don't care about "stuff" until it affects them.

Anyway, After numerous round table discussions, I was willing to compromise with my initial stance by breaking my vote out into the three main types. Presidential, Referendum and Local. I'm not going to say which way I voted as it will indicate Sorcha's opposite stance, therefore protecting her right to secret ballot.

On that ... this was the first weekend that myself and Sorcha absolutely disagreed with each other. It was .. a strange feeling. There were other weekends where we differed slightly but trashed it out over dinner and one of us actually said "ah yeah, I see what you mean" and changed their mind. This weekend, we reached no such accord.

Another strange thing happened this weekend. Every weekend up until now, we were allowed to vote how we wanted, and widened our scope as we saw fit. Actually, scrap that "allowed", we told Tom. This weekend, we were not allowed, in any shape or form, to broaden our scope. We wanted to broaden it out from Presidential to also include Local/Dáil and Referenda. This was brought up multiple times. Each time Tom said no. Once or twice, he clarified his response by saying that Local/Referenda are fundamentally different [which they are] from Presidential elections. It has also been told to me, in confidence, that this broadening was brought up at a recent steering group meeting and "absolutely shot down" without discussion.

So, I don't know why this weekend was fundamentally different from weekends past. It does leave a lot of unanswered questions. It also opens up a lot of un-easy to think about questions, which I'm not going to go into here.

So, because we didn't get to discuss this as an entire group, I can only give an indication on how our table discussed it. I'm not sure on how other tables discussed it, other than I know some of them did. [I didn't go to dinner on Saturday night as I wasn't feeling well, so couldn't discuss it there either]...

We wanted to break out into Presidential, Local and Referendum. The general consensus was [and by no means unanimous, was]

Presidential : We didn't really mind. Generally, it's largely a ceremonial role. We are aware of the role of the Pres but it's VERY unusual for these powers to be enacted. As for Northern Ireland, and as per the Good Friday Agreement, we extend this to all NI citizens.
Referenda : We didn't mind, per say. Irish are Irish. When you leave the country, a lot envisage coming back eventually. Referenda are long term changes, Even iof you are gone for 10 or 15 years, constitutional changes would still affect you, if you came back. However, this right would be time limited to ... 15 years, say.
Local/Dáil : Nah. You gotta be in the land [and be a citizen] to vote. This is day to day, bread and butter, of running the country. Any changes here probably wouldn't affect you, unless you were coming home REAL soon.

Oh, and I got my photo taken

. Raging having missed dinner, as Martin sat down beside Sorcha. She was starstruck and like a giddy little school girl all night

So, we were all done. I saw him posing for photos with anyone who asked. Didn't want to hassle him but Sorcha said "Gimme yer camera and get up there. You'll regret it if you don't". So, I waited until he wasn't talking to anyone. And Bang.

I saw Martin passing so "Oi, Martin. I know where you live. Get over here for a photo".

OK, I didn't say that but thinking back. It wasn't far off it :S Probably more like "Hey Martin, let's go for a photo"

All the while, Sorcha was still holding the camera button. Yeah, I was like a giddy little schoolboy for a few minutes either, hoping no one would notice. She got her photo taken on the Saturday.

***

Finally... Over the weekend. I noticed come changes in the hotel. I like structure. In fact, I tend not to function properly without structure. Maybe it relates back to my self confidence issues relating to being bullied in school for six years all through Primary school. Anyway, I digress. Structure is very important to me. On Friday evening, I went to the residents bar. I was immediately greeted by a different barman. Not strange, you may say. However, this was the first change since January. The original barman just wasn't there. I didn't ask and just kept to myself.

On Saturday morning. I went down for breakfast. I wasn't in the breakfast room 10 seconds, I knew something was different. There were one or two different staff members. I put it down to holidays / different shifts or just staff turn around. But that is now two differences. Some of the long timers just weren't right either. They were smiling but it looked forced. I'm socially handicapped so I didn't say anything. There were also some other staff members who... just seemed different. It was barely noticeable. usually there is half a smile when you are passing some staff. Their way of saying "hi" but maintaining professionalism while showing you to the restaurant or whatever. That was absent this weekend.

Otherwise, the weekend passed relatively similar to previous meets, and we were coming to the end of the Sunday session. Tom had concluded things. His final words went along the lines that the Convention would like to express their sympathies to the two staff members who had died since we had been there last. My heart immediately sank. He called out the two names [one of which I didn't hear]. I immediately looked around the table. How did this keep quiet? I was told that murmurs started circulated during dinner the previous night. I so hoped it wasn't the two guys I had noticed missing. It wasn't. It wasn't both of them. It was one of them. The guy I didn't know, worked in the kitchens but suffered S A D S [I think] at a recent festival. The other guy was ... the happiest guys I ever had the pleasure to meet.

Every morning, he would have a quick "how's your day?" conversation. Always on top form. Always bending over backward at the smallest or largest inconvenience. Don't get me wrong. I didn't know him, personally. He didn't know me, personally. We just had that 3 or 4 minutes every weekend of the convention. But his presence still touched me. This guy will never know how many other people he touched. A quick Google shows [over the last 12 months] nothing but praise for this guy. The amount of people who singled out this guy for praise, enjoyed their stay in the hotel PURELY on seeing him in the mornings for breakfast... He just brought an air of happiness to the room.

I couldn't reconcile the news on Sunday. I still can't reconcile it today. I just can't get it right in my head that he won't be there for the next meeting.

Out of respect for the families involved, I think I have been sufficiently vague for this post not to show up in any internet searches. However, if the mods consider it necessary, you may remove after *** or as you see fit.

munchkin_utd

great synopsis there RangeR and I am impressed that everything was discussed in such a structured and methodical way

I'm very interested in seeing the submissions of the various parties especially how it was proposed any voting system would work in practical terms. Is it island of Ireland born citizens only which are proposed to be allowed to vote or what limits and restrictions are likely?

I presume the reason that it wasn't allowed to broaden the scope from simply presidential elections to dail elections is that you really are getting into the technicalities of how you would introduce extra voters into the system, as a new constituency or allow people to go into their last constituency which they were previously registered. You could end up talking in circles and to be honest you'd need to have all that groundwork done with some possible proposals in advance which obviously wasn't done here.

Frank Grimes

RangeR wrote: »

Local/Dáil : Nah. You gotta be in the land B]and be a citizen[/B to vote. This is day to day, bread and butter, of running the country. Any changes here probably wouldn't affect you, unless you were coming home REAL soon.

Maybe I've misread your post, but as it stands you do not have to be an Irish citizen to vote in local elections, and British citizens can vote in Dáil elections (link) - is this a change that's being proposed?

RangeR

munchkin_utd wrote: »

great synopsis there RangeR and I am impressed that everything was discussed in such a structured and methodical way

I'm very interested in seeing the submissions of the various parties especially how it was proposed any voting system would work in practical terms. Is it island of Ireland born citizens only which are proposed to be allowed to vote or what limits and restrictions are likely?

I presume the reason that it wasn't allowed to broaden the scope from simply presidential elections to dail elections is that you really are getting into the technicalities of how you would introduce extra voters into the system, as a new constituency or allow people to go into their last constituency which they were previously registered. You could end up talking in circles and to be honest you'd need to have all that groundwork done with some possible proposals in advance which obviously wasn't done here.

On the ball. It was said by Tom, that if we were to broaden our scope, we would need many more weekends to discuss. And even then, maybe not get anywhere.

In the end, we decided just to vote on the principle and not vote on the practicals [postal, e-voting, embassy etc] and leave that up to the "experts". If you watched the plenary towards the end, there was a draft ballot but we removed those voteable items by show of hands. It was a close one, though. Something like 55% to 45% in favour.

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Maybe I've misread your post, but as it stands you do not have to be an Irish citizen to vote in local elections, and British citizens can vote in Dáil elections (link) - is this a change that's being proposed?

Forgive my wording. I'm certainly no expert in this stuff. I was trying to refer to the multitudes of people here that can't vote. Foreign [non UK] nationals. Actually, we even discussed the likes of citizens who can't vote, through no fault of their own. Those in hospital, those who have booked their holidays months in advance, as you do, etc. The unfairness of the current system was not lost on us. However... we didn't vote on that.

Frank Grimes

RangeR wrote: »

Forgive my wording. I'm certainly no expert in this stuff. I was trying to refer to the multitudes of people here that can't vote. Foreign [non UK] nationals. Actually, we even discussed the likes of citizens who can't vote, through no fault of their own. Those in hospital, those who have booked their holidays months in advance, as you do, etc. The unfairness of the current system was not lost on us. However... we didn't vote on that.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

expectationlost

may not be so bad that they didn't go into dail elections but then they should have gone in some detail about how it would work for presidential elections

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

may not be so bad that they didn't go into dail elections but then they should have gone in some detail about how it would work for presidential elections

We did, to some macro degree. We choose not to vote on the various options.

munchkin_utd

it looks like there might not be a vote on some of the results of the constitutional convention after all, including the question of a vote outside the 26 counties.

Fine Gael TDs had been told ahead of the last week’s vote to expect a “Constitution day” initiative some time in 2015. This reflects the view that politics in 2014 will be dominated by local and European elections.
Even before the Seanad poll, however, there was doubt in Government circles about the merits and feasibility of the convention’s proposals to lower the voting age to 16 and expand the franchise in presidential elections to citizens living abroad.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-says-seanad-reform-is-on-the-agenda-1.1552321

expectationlost

munchkin_utd wrote: »

it looks like there might not be a vote on some of the results of the constitutional convention after all, including the question of a vote outside the 26 counties.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-says-seanad-reform-is-on-the-agenda-1.1552321

and who chose these topics?

munchkin_utd

one result of the recent Marriage Referendum was the air of positivity toward emmigrants coming back to vote and the positive input emmigrants have made in the debate.
(I could contrast this to the position of previous constitutional conventions which saw emmigrants, aka young people, being a dangerous and unwanted interference in Irish politics, but I digress)

I tried to find something regarding the conclusions on this constitutional convention, but only found the submissions and other similar documentation on the discussions.

Was there a conclusions/ summary document released somewhere ?

RangeR

munchkin_utd wrote: »

one result of the recent Marriage Referendum was the air of positivity toward emmigrants coming back to vote and the positive input emmigrants have made in the debate.
(I could contrast this to the position of previous constitutional conventions which saw emmigrants, aka young people, being a dangerous and unwanted interference in Irish politics, but I digress)

I tried to find something regarding the conclusions on this constitutional convention, but only found the submissions and other similar documentation on the discussions.

Was there a conclusions/ summary document released somewhere ?

Do you mean giving the diaspora a vote in Ireland?

expectationlost

they were supposed to be discussing the voting report in the dail today and Deenihan was on Morning Ireland http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0526/703828-voting/

transcript not up yet http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015052600001?opendocument

hate the documentation page on constitution.ie so hard to find the actual reports is this it ? https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=be5fb014-a32a-e311-96d5-005056a32ee4 press release https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=46da2731-8a56-e311-8571-005056a32ee4

votes https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=3364dc69-992a-e311-96d5-005056a32ee4

im not sure which report/s they are talking about today.

ah here it the 5th report https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=bf489ec7-9556-e311-8571-005056a32ee4

they really need to regulate voting for irish citizens abroad, its very muddy rules at the moment as you can see from last week.

expectationlost

this was bumped till 2 weeks time https://twitter.com/dfarrell_ucd/status/603504838832427008

427 days overdue as of today

jank

Would like to see some movement on this. Its a bit of a no-brainer to extend the vote for the diaspora in presidential elections.

munchkin_utd

expectationlost wrote: »

<snip>they really need to regulate voting for irish citizens abroad, its very muddy rules at the moment as you can see from last week.

still, I'd feel more positive about a presidental vote getting approval now in a referendum than a week ago.

And for anyone who wants to make their voice heard at referenda or Dail elections, whether irish abroad or unentitled foreigner living in Ireland, you just have to get your name on the register, take the initiative get yourself in person to the polling station, and aparantly it's then grand to vote even if technically (aka legally) youre not supposed to.

RangeR

jank wrote: »

Would like to see some movement on this. Its a bit of a no-brainer to extend the vote for the diaspora in presidential elections.

Just to be clear, It's citizens abroad, not the wider "Irish" Diaspora. As in, if you hold an Irish Passport but not if your the great great grand child of an Irish citizen and never stepped a foot in our great country ... or some such.

jank

RangeR wrote: »

Just to be clear, It's citizens abroad, not the wider "Irish" Diaspora. As in, if you hold an Irish Passport but not if your the great great grand child of an Irish citizen and never stepped a foot in our great country ... or some such.

Oh, yes absolutely. I was going to use the term ex-pat but used the diaspora instead. Been listening to too much RTE radio.

expectationlost

Diarmaid Ferriter: Emigrants’ voting rights should be extended http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-emigrants-voting-rights-should-be-extended-1.2231200

TDs to discuss allowing diaspora to vote in presidential elections
26 May 2015 13:00
Jimmy Deenihan, Minister of state with responsibility for Diaspora Affairs, discusses extending voting rights in Presidential elections to Irish citizens who are resident outside of the State http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2015/0526/20150526_rteradio1-morningireland-tdstodiscu_c20786406_20786494_232_.mp3

so where is is proposal at?

Deenihan saying nothing
its in the departmental black box
he mentions the Seanad Reform Working group proposal to give to give citizens abroad a vote for Seanad, and he says personally would prefer that that 3 senators would be designated for certain regions around the world, which as Ferritor points out was a proposal in Foreign Affairs white paper in 1966 and it still hasn't happened, and couldn't be done without a referendum. (so he's crowbaring in rerferendums in order to excuse not to do anything)

Deenihan: "votes for Irish citizens votes abroad, if it doesn't happen in 2018 then you can say it didn't happen"

what a waffler Deenihan is.

VinLieger

RangeR wrote: »

Just to be clear, It's citizens abroad, not the wider "Irish" Diaspora. As in, if you hold an Irish Passport but not if your the great great grand child of an Irish citizen and never stepped a foot in our great country ... or some such.

But those grand children are entitled to Irish passports so how do we differentiate?

munchkin_utd

VinLieger wrote: »

But those grand children are entitled to Irish passports so how do we differentiate?

easy, in so many ways.

One would be that only someone on the register previously could have a vote abroad, thus eliminating children of irish abroad, let alone grandchildren. This is what the UK has - and essentially no different than what happened last week.

Or, have a stipulation that you have to have had a residency in the state. This is what happens in Germany and what was proposed for Seanad votes in the 1960s.

Or have it for Irish born only, which is a shade too restrictive possibly seeing as many Irish are born abroad but parents move back by the time they go to school, but is certainly another option.

RangeR

VinLieger wrote: »

But those grand children are entitled to Irish passports so how do we differentiate?

Don't you have to give up your citizenship and passport of home country, if you get an Irish passport and Irish citizenship? You certainly can't be a citizen of two countries [NI clouds that slightly with the Good Friday Agreement, if I remember correctly.]