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Public sector pay increase

Specialun

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/public-sector-set-for-2-pay-rise-31171774.html

And dont they deserve it...

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Calina

JillyQ wrote: »

Why would you automatically assume it involves cutting services?

Well, currently a lot of those services are cross subsidised by profitable BE services. If you allow the private sector to pick and choose those ones, to such an extent that BE's profits deteriorate, to maintain the loss making services, BE is going to need a significantly increased subsidy.

Which I have no doubt you'd scream blue murder about given that you don't appear to value public service and the fact that it occasionally costs money.

the_syco

Jawgap wrote: »

Ideally, they should be able to charge DSP a fee for each journey undertaken, but that would just mean taxes going through DSP to get to BAC and BE, audits, billing etc - better, from an administrative efficiency point of view, to just agree a lump sum and hand that over.

I think some bus companies have refused to take part in the scheme as that's a PITA. Also, as until recently most of them had no photo on them, they weren't that hard to copy.

Jawgap wrote: »

Doesn't have to be on Grafton street - there are plenty of publicly owned buildings in the city centre, the State could allocate some space to them in one of them and charge a market rate........

I think I did mine in Henry Street or Talbot Street about 10 years ago. Used to be fairly packed, but I think they had their fair share of junkies coming in as well. There was little to no security at any given time.

Jawgap wrote: »

People think public servants lack ability, imagination and inventiveness

Public Servants can often quickly find that imagination and inventiveness is limited by red tape and the fear of getting sued. Oh, and limited budget. If you have the budget to do something, you don't need imagination and inventiveness to have something done.

Uncle Ben

€2k over 2 years. Labour trying to buy votes.

daithi7

Uncle Ben wrote: »

€2k over 2 years. Labour trying to buy votes.

Yup, and Fine Gael are letting them try, at all of our expense. It's poor politics, poor leadership and poor economics in a triple cocktail of codology. Sadly though, this is the type of government & parliament clowns we're used to having in Ireland. A dail full of failed school teachers, trying to control an overpaid and underperforming civil service elite in a bankrupted country, is a triple whammy of fup ups for Ireland & the Irish people.

Bring back the troika!!

darkpagandeath

Wow Lets just remember who was saying it would be blanket restoration..... Good to see it's value for money...

Black Menorca

This is at best a moderate first step to pay restoration with limited restoration over a future 3 year period. It is progress from the FEMPI cutting fetish and it is pleasing to see the pension pay cut being drastically diminished for lower paid workers.

I will await information meetings with the union before deciding on whether to accept this or not.

jank

Black Menorca wrote: »

This is at best a moderate first step to pay restoration with limited restoration over a future 3 year period. It is progress from the FEMPI cutting fetish and it is pleasing to see the pension pay cut being drastically diminished for lower paid workers.

I will await information meetings with the union before deciding on whether to accept this or not.

I never heard anyone refuse free money with nothing but illusionary reports and reform to be had in return. This carry does not happen on this side of the world. Public sector pay in Australia and NZ is not in the hands of ministers to pay off come an election.

Mongfinder General

jank wrote: »

I never heard anyone refuse free money with nothing but illusionary reports and reform to be had in return. This carry does not happen on this side of the world. Public sector pay in Australia and NZ is not in the hands of ministers to pay off come an election.

Who's hands is it in?

purplecow1977

I'm a public service worker and it is very obvious it is a buying votes scam.

We are not fooled by it and the new points we have to agree to.

Assume unions will have to vote to either accept or reject these proposals or will it run after the HRA?

daithi7

Public ' Pay Restoration' = Deceitful Deluded Spin

Public pay levels in 07 were based on multi year budget surpluses fueled by unsustainable property transaction taxes at over double normal prices on 3/4 times the number of property sales. 1/3 of our economy was driven by a bubble property &construction sector.Further, Our national debt was about 30%of Gdp and the rest of the economy was also flying due to a worldwide credit fueled boom.

We thought we were richer than the Swiss, and so our public sector were' entitled 'to be paid more than them.

The trouble is it was an illusion, we weren't &aren't much better off than the poor Portuguese, who are broke & heavily indebted for generations to come. Yet we continued to pay our public servants like we had just struck oil. Our economy reverted to its real level in a withering recession over 7 years, in which we more than trebled our national debt to 120% of Gdp,paying for current expenditure, so Tina the teacher, Gerry the garda, and Pat the postman could still be paid like they were living in Switzerland. This will cost our grandchildren as well as us. And now with the cost of living way down, with the price of a house down about 40% and, the tax earning potential of the country down about 25 to 40%, with a crucifying national debt to service in perpetuity, and with the private sector paying through levies on their own pensions,usc, special self employed taxes, etc for supporting public pay &conditions at artificially high rates, some public sector gob****es talk about pay Restoration!?

There is no restoration to a deluded place, so please stop insulting the Irish people's collective intelligence by banging that deceitful broken drum.... Irish public servants are already over paid relative to their EU peers and way over paid to what we can afford, that is far too much already, so stop.

Mongfinder General

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I'm a public service worker and it is very obvious it is a buying votes scam.

We are not fooled by it and the new points we have to agree to.

Assume unions will have to vote to either accept or reject these proposals or will it run after the HRA?

Spot on. Unions and Government had this stitched up months ago. Any restoration is subject to paye, prsi, USC etc. A sizeable chunk of the restored pay is taken back in taxation so the net cost is less than what is being touted. The unions should have spoken to Fianna Fail and the Provos about what they could offer after an election. They could have used this to bargain with the current government. At this rate of restoration it will take the best part of a decade for public sector workers to have their pay restored in full.

Black Menorca

We have to look at the alternatives. FG on their own or in cahoots with FF will not be so quick to restore our pay and an SF, Looney Left cabal will drive the economy back into oblivion.

JillyQ

Black Menorca wrote: »

We have to look at the alternatives. FG on their own or in cahoots with FF will not be so quick to restore our pay and an SF, Looney Left cabal will drive the economy back into oblivion.

Thats what most people seem to want here

Black Menorca

JillyQ wrote: »

Thats what most people seem to want here

Then be careful what you wish for would be my advice to them.

JillyQ

Black Menorca wrote: »

Then be careful what you wish for would be my advice to them.

The question we have to ask then is do any of us want to go back to the recession of the 70's & 80's

Captain Chaos

JillyQ wrote: »

The question we have to ask then is do any of us want to go back to the recession of the 70's & 80's

There were no USC, property taxes or water charges back then no matter how bad people say it was. Yes though VAT and PRSI was alot higher.

cocoman

Captain Chaos wrote: »

There were no USC, property taxes or water charges back then no matter how bad people say it was. Yes though VAT and PRSI was alot higher.

There were domestic rates until 1977.

JillyQ

Captain Chaos wrote: »

There were no USC, property taxes or water charges back then no matter how bad people say it was. Yes though VAT and PRSI was alot higher.

Of course there was. There was a little thing called rates. Alot higher isn't the word people were paying over 60% in income tax.

Mongfinder General

JillyQ wrote: »

Of course there was. There was a little thing called rates. Alot higher isn't the word people were paying over 60% in income tax.

People are paying over 60% tax now.

40% paye
7% USC
4% PRSI
10.5% Pension Levy (Yes it is a tax. There is no guarantee that an Irish government will be able to fund the intrinsic value of pensions in 30 or 40 years time)
Add to this mandatory pension contributions in the public sector and the rate is probably closer to 70%

daithi7

Mongfinder General wrote: »

People are paying over 60% tax now.

40% paye
7% USC
4% PRSI
10.5% Pension Levy (Yes it is a tax. There is no guarantee that an Irish government will be able to fund the intrinsic value of pensions in 30 or 40 years time)
Add to this mandatory pension contributions in the public sector and the rate is probably closer to 70%

No,it is not a tax it is a pension contribution.

The only category of worker who pay extra tax rates in this skewed sector state are the self employed, who pay a higher rate of prsi with lower allowances. They also pay prsi on things like deposit interest. And to really make things totally ridiculous, their own private pension funds are currently being raided by the Irish taxman of. 6% per annum to mostly fund overpaid public servants.

So with ~10% unemployment, the only people being really screwed are the people who actually create wealth and indigenous jobsin the Irish economy ...... meanwhile the same paper pushers in the dept of finance, none of whom were fired, and who helped misdirect Ireland into a monumental economic crisis are back getting pay rises.....You couldn't make it up!!

daithi7

Meanwhile, while the Irish government parties sanction pay rises for themselves and other already overpaid public servants, Ireland loses competiveness.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-slips-to-16th-in-world-competitiveness-rankings-1.2228353

This directly inhibits job & wealth creation. So on a country with 10% unemployment, 110% debt to GDP, & a current budget deficit, Irish politicians opt to adopt the exact wrong policy direction versus that which is necessary to recover the country quickest. TRAGIC

From the report :
"Among Ireland’s challenges in 2015 identified by the Swiss business school were maintaining focus on cost competitiveness and public sector reform, strengthening competition for foreign direct investment, and investment in infrastructure.“

purplecow1977

daithi7 wrote: »

No,it is not a tax it is a pension contribution.

The only category of worker who pay more tax in this skewed state are the self employed, who pay a higher rate of prsi, on lower allowances. We also pay prsi on things like deposit interest and our own private pension funds are currently being raided of. 6% per annum to fund overpaid public servants.

So with ~10% unemployment, the only people being really screwed are the people who actually create wealth and indigenous jobs...... You couldn't make it up!!

Are you generalising ALL public servants are overpaid or did you omit the word 'some'? Because I am certainly not overpaid. I work damn hard for my salary.

JillyQ

daithi7 wrote: »

No,it is not a tax it is a pension contribution.

The only category of worker who pay more tax in this skewed state are the self employed, who pay a higher rate of prsi, on lower allowances. We also pay prsi on things like deposit interest and our own private pension funds are currently being raided of. 6% per annum to fund overpaid public servants.

So with ~10% unemployment, the only people being really screwed are the people who actually create wealth and indigenous jobs...... You couldn't make it up!!

You are right you couldn't make it up. But then there are certain people who believe that the self employed people those who actually have the get & go to start there own businesses should pay more taxes, little do they understand that increasing the taxation on us or businesses reduces our ability to create employment.

daithi7

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Are you generalising ALL public servants are overpaid or did you omit the word 'some'? Because I am certainly not overpaid. I work damn hard for my salary.

That's fair enough and probably goes to the kernel of the problem in Ireland. Most public servants are overpaid, but some are not and a lower percentage again are probably underpaid. That is true.

What is badly needed Imho, is an independent guideline body on public pay in Ireland, which would benchmark Irish public pay versus EU peers, private sector equivalents here and the exchequer capacity to pay, and to come up with specific recommendations for government every 5 years say (or for every round of public pay ' negotiations ' say) . This body could also be tasked with measuring productivity across the various strands of the public service, monitoring agreed changes in work practices & productivity and carrying out value for money reviews (e.g. University sector, Irish water, etc, etc). Using this body , we could finally see if we are getting good value from our doctors, teachers, lecturers, garda, etc,etc And if they are being paid appropriately. This would be far better than the cat & mouse negotiating con job that has delivered such poor value for the exchequer to date, and has led to a badly run, very disorganised public sector in general, run by insiders for insiders, that is arguably not fit for purpose at all.

This proposed body should help transparency and take some of the pressure off Irish politicians to accede to every public sector union demand as they appear to do currently. It would also highlight specific areas of the public service that need urgent addressing. This type of body is an urgent priority imho, yet you'll hardly ever hear any politician calling for it..... Why not!?

Mongfinder General

daithi7 wrote: »

No,it is not a tax it is a pension contribution.

The only category of worker who pay extra tax rates in this skewed sector state are the self employed, who pay a higher rate of prsi with lower allowances. They also pay prsi on things like deposit interest. And to really make things totally ridiculous, their own private pension funds are currently being raided by the Irish taxman of. 6% per annum to mostly fund overpaid public servants.

So with ~10% unemployment, the only people being really screwed are the people who actually create wealth and indigenous jobsin the Irish economy ...... meanwhile the same paper pushers in the dept of finance, none of whom were fired, and who helped misdirect Ireland into a monumental economic crisis are back getting pay rises.....You couldn't make it up!!

The bitterness is just dripping off the above post.

Now Sir, if you want to kid yourself and try to con those gullible enough to put faith in your analysis, you've probably come to the right place. However some of us can see what's coming.

The pension pot is long gone. The IMF made ****e out of it paying for the hole created by private sector criminality. The chances of any public sector employee realising the value of their pension as promised in 20 or 30 years time is slim. Their pension contributions and pension levy payments have been vired to cover the mess created by criminal elements in the private sector. The funny thing is that there was never a surplus to transfer.

So keep peddling your spite filled ****e. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can tell that you have a hard on for pounding public servants up the hole.

evolving_doors

daithi7 wrote: »

That's fair enough and probably goes to the kernel of the problem in Ireland. Most public servants are overpaid, but some are not and a lower percentage again are probably underpaid. That is true.

What is badly needed Imho, is an independent guideline body on public pay in Ireland, which would benchmark Irish public pay versus EU peers, private sector equivalents here and the exchequer capacity to pay, and to come up with specific recommendations for government every 5 years say (or for every round of public pay ' negotiations ' say) . This body could also be tasked with measuring productivity across the various strands of the public service, monitoring agreed changes in work practices & productivity and carrying out value for money reviews (e.g. University sector, Irish water, etc, etc). Using this body , we could finally see if we are getting good value from our doctors, teachers, lecturers, garda, etc,etc And if they are being paid appropriately. This would be far better than the cat & mouse negotiating con job that has delivered such poor value for the exchequer to date, and has led to a badly run, very disorganised public sector in general, run by insiders for insiders, that is arguably not fit for purpose at all.

This proposed body should help transparency and take some of the pressure off Irish politicians to accede to every public sector union demand as they appear to do currently. It would also highlight specific areas of the public service that need urgent addressing. This type of body is an urgent priority imho, yet you'll hardly ever hear any politician calling for it..... Why not!?

And what happens if they say our doctors, teachers, lecturers, garda, etc,etc are undervalued and recommend pay rises within the public sector, Would you be happy then?

granturismo

daithi7 wrote: »

...What is badly needed Imho, is an independent guideline body on public pay in Ireland, which would benchmark Irish public pay versus EU peers, private sector equivalents here and the exchequer capacity to pay, and to come up with specific recommendations for government every 5 years say (or for every round of public pay ' negotiations ' say) ....

Apply the same to a multinational employee in mosy other EU country where the cost of living is generally lower and public services are better but taxes are higher. Admittedly, public services here as do need a shake up in terms of employee accountability.

purplecow1977

Daith can I just ask you, as a primary school teacher, how you suggest measuring productivity? And please don't suggest results or exam based because there are many reasons that doesn't work with children.

Black Menorca

daithi7 wrote: »

No,it is not a tax it is a pension contribution.

Expand on that one for us.

I already contribute to my pension.

[Deleted User]

daithi7 wrote: »

No,it is not a tax it is a pension contribution.

Pension contribution my arse, its no more a pension contribution than USC or PAYE. Its a tax and public sector workers will never see a cent of it again. Its also a tax only on public sector workers which means if a private and public sector worker or on the same salary the private sector worker see a lot more in the net pay than the public sector worker.

Your bitterness is quite entertaining though, if it wasn't annoying at the same time the way you have decided that the the majority of public servants are over paid when in fact most are underpaid for the vital jobs they carry out in our schools, hospitals, on the streets etc etc.

The pay restoration being discussed now is only the start of the move to return public sector workers to salaries they should be on and this should then be followed by salary increases.

I'd say your head is exploding now that this is all being signed up and happening.