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Public sector pay increase

Specialun

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/public-sector-set-for-2-pay-rise-31171774.html

And dont they deserve it...

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Roger Hassenforder

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Who imposed the condition that the company needs to be insolvent? And to answer your question the company pays its employees redundancy.

eh, you did:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

....if an entrepreneur goes bust?

Bust:

1. Informal
a. To smash or break, especially forcefully: "Mr. Luger worked it with a rake, busting up the big clods, making a flat brown table" (Garrison Keillor).
b. To render inoperable or unusable: busted the vending machine by putting in foreign coins.
2. To cause to come to an end; break up: an attempt to bust the union.
3. To break or tame (a horse).
4. To cause to become bankrupt or short of money:

Insolvent:
adjective
1.not solvent; unable to satisfy creditors or discharge liabilities, either because liabilities exceed assets or because of inability to pay debts as they mature.
2.pertaining to bankrupt persons or bankruptcy.

in theory, the employer should pay redundancy. Doesnt always happen.

Paulzx

JillyQ wrote: »

I do how ever believe that things like motor tax etc should be privatised

Why?

It seems to me that the motor tax system works perfectly efficently as is.

You receive notice that your tax is due to expire well in advance.

You get a pin number to renew online.

Disk arrives about 2 days later.

Why would you pay an outside company to carry out an already efficent process?

Iwasfrozen

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

in theory, the employer should pay redundancy. Doesnt always happen.

You misunderstood, the other poster was claiming since the state loses when a company goes bust that somehow gives legitimacy to unions to blackmail employers.

Roger Hassenforder

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You misunderstood, the other poster was claiming since the state loses when a company goes bust that somehow gives legitimacy to unions to blackmail employers.

dont think anyone is claiming that tbf.

Its in the unions interest to have the best possible rights and conditions for its members in that company. It doesnt serve the union or its members to close a company should the company not respond to "blackmail"

Just curious, were you ever in a union?

Iwasfrozen

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

dont think anyone is claiming that tbf.

Its in the unions interest to have the best possible rights and conditions for its members in that company. It doesnt serve the union or its members to close a company should the company not respond to "blackmail"

Just curious, were you ever in a union?

No, but I wasn't claiming that. Unions cost the company by preventing managers from making necessary and beneficial changes to company organization without being subject to union led blackmail.

To answer your question, no I've never been in a union.

JillyQ

Paulzx wrote: »

Why?

It seems to me that the motor tax system works perfectly efficently as is.

You receive notice that your tax is due to expire well in advance.

You get a pin number to renew online.

Disk arrives about 2 days later.

Why would you pay an outside company to carry out an already efficent process?

your lucky that you can get it within 2 days, where i am it can take over 2 weeks to get it. Also if you happen to be Unfortunate enough to have to go into the motor tax office at the start of the month it can take up two hours to get it done while some of the counters are closed and other staff just get up and walk off while there is a queue of people there waiting. That to me is not efficient.
efficient.

Sheldons Brain

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Yes clearly Korean culture is different but clearly they're doing something right and a little bit of Korean work ethic in our schools wouldn't be a bad thing.

Korean teachers earn 40% more than typical graduate salaries, while Irish teachers earn 20% less.
Perhaps open a couple of experimental Korean style schools, pay the teachers 60% for more the longer year and see what happens. Or do you want Korean work ethic and Irish style pay?

JillyQ wrote:

your lucky that you can get it within 2 days, where i am it can take over 2 weeks to get it.

Motortax is efficient, any routine renewal over the Internet is 2-3 days. More attention should be paid to getting other public services as efficient rather than ranting about pay all the time.

Iwasfrozen

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Korean teachers earn 40% more than typical graduate salaries, while Irish teachers earn 20% less.
Perhaps open a couple of experimental Korean style schools, pay the teachers 60% for more the longer year and see what happens. Or do you want Korean work ethic and Irish style pay?

Where are you getting that info from? I'm not saying you're wrong but I haven't been able to find real Korean teacher salaries, just ESL teachers.

Sheldons Brain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where are you getting that info from? I'm not saying you're wrong but I haven't been able to find real Korean teacher salaries, just ESL teachers.

All of this is in the OECD
e.g. http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en
http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2013%20(eng)--FINAL%2020%20June%202013.pdf

mindful that in almost every country except Ireland, secondary teachers are better paid than primary ones and that scales differ, so the average or maximum might give a different comparison.

Iwasfrozen

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

All of this is in the OECD
e.g. http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en
http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2013%20(eng)--FINAL%2020%20June%202013.pdf

mindful that in almost every country except Ireland, secondary teachers are better paid than primary ones and that scales differ, so the average or maximum might give a different comparison.

From reading that chart Irish teachers are paid more than Korean teachers initially and after 15 years while Korean teachers have a higher maximum salary.

Also it takes 22 years to reach maximum salary in Ireland while in Korea it takes 37 years.

That implies to me Korean teachers are paid less than Irish teachers for working a longer year.

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

From reading that chart Irish teachers are paid more than Korean teachers initially and after 15 years while Korean teachers have a higher maximum salary.

Also it takes 22 years to reach maximum salary in Ireland while in Korea it takes 37 years.

That implies to me Korean teachers are paid less than Irish teachers for working a longer year.

And Tbh you can't just compare flat € conversion on wage, many factors standard of living working hours time off pensions tax loads more. I'm sorry but our guys get a very sweet deal.

Jawgap

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The state, and the above is another example of how tax incentives, subsidiesand grants are damaging to the economy.

I'll ask you again. Why does the state assuming risk, if they do, imply unions of workers can blackmail their employees?

You're tying to make a connection between the state loosing out when a company is in trouble and allowing unions to threaten companies in general.

Actually I'm not.

Are you suggesting the State shouldn't incentivise indigenous business start ups through grants-in-aid, tax breaks, technical supports etc

Unions or employees don't blackmail anyone.

Roger Hassenforder

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, but I wasn't claiming that. Unions cost the company by preventing managers from making necessary and beneficial changes to company organization without being subject to union led blackmail.

To answer your question, no I've never been in a union.

Where are you getting these notions of how unions work?
There's a system of industrial relations management in this country, that unions operate within. Blackmail is not one of the options. There is even statutory protection for employers if the grievance isn't well grounded.
Unions exist to protect workers rights and provide collective bargaining.
There is a massive difference between threatening industrial action where an employer is seeking to maximise profits or implement changes to the detriment of workers, and where an employer must implement changes to ensure survival, which in this case the unions usually work with the employer to minimise damage to its members.

Jawgap

JillyQ wrote: »

your lucky that you can get it within 2 days, where i am it can take over 2 weeks to get it. Also if you happen to be Unfortunate enough to have to go into the motor tax office at the start of the month it can take up two hours to get it done while some of the counters are closed and other staff just get up and walk off while there is a queue of people there waiting. That to me is not efficient.
efficient.

.....and there you have it.

Motor tax and the payment thereof can easily be done online - yet people want physical locations where they can go an pay!

You could do away with every motor tax counter in the country tomorrow and move to online payment - back office admin could be outsourced and the country could save a not insignificant amount on its pay bill.

But people want their counters, their local authority offices etc and that means they have to be staffed.

"What about the old folks etc?" people will ask.

Simple, they get themselves along to their local library (they're pretty much all connected now) where the local librarian can help them.

"Not everyone has a credit / debit card"

Simple, stop at your nearest Payzone affiliated retailer and pick up a 3V voucher for the amount and use that.

JillyQ

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and there you have it.

Motor tax and the payment thereof can easily be done online - yet people want physical locations where they can go an pay!

You could do away with every motor tax counter in the country tomorrow and move to online payment - back office admin could be outsourced and the country could save a not insignificant amount on its pay bill.

But people want their counters, their local authority offices etc and that means they have to be staffed.

"What about the old folks etc?" people will ask.

Simple, they get themselves along to their local library (they're pretty much all connected now) where the local librarian can help them.

"Not everyone has a credit / debit card"

Simple, stop at your nearest Payzone affiliated retailer and pick up a 3V voucher for the amount and use that.

you missed the point even when it is ordered online it can still take over two weeks to get it.

Vizzy

JillyQ wrote: »

you missed the point even when it is ordered online it can still take over two weeks to get it.

But surely that is not the fault of motortax.ie ?
They simply process the application and post out the disc, it doesn't matter if you live in Ballyfermot or Ballydehob.

Sheldons Brain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

From reading that chart Irish teachers are paid more than Korean teachers initially and after 15 years while Korean teachers have a higher maximum salary.

Also it takes 22 years to reach maximum salary in Ireland while in Korea it takes 37 years.

That implies to me Korean teachers are paid less than Irish teachers for working a longer year.

You have the unique ability to interpret and misprepresent data of an Indo journalist.

My original point was that Korean teachers were better paid relative to graduate salaries in their country, so just comparing the absolute salaries does not invalidate my point.

The length of the scale is a relevant point, if you are proposing that Irish teachers be paid more but only after longer service then that too is a plan.

Calina

JillyQ wrote: »

you missed the point even when it is ordered online it can still take over two weeks to get it.

You're missing the point. I never do anything other than renew online. It has never ever EVER taken over 2 weeks for it to be returned to me. Max 3 days.

JillyQ

Vizzy wrote: »

But surely that is not the fault of motortax.ie ?
They simply process the application and post out the disc, it doesn't matter if you live in Ballyfermot or Ballydehob.

Its the relevant councils that issue them

Calina

JillyQ wrote: »

your lucky that you can get it within 2 days, where i am it can take over 2 weeks to get it. Also if you happen to be Unfortunate enough to have to go into the motor tax office at the start of the month it can take up two hours to get it done while some of the counters are closed and other staff just get up and walk off while there is a queue of people there waiting. That to me is not efficient.
efficient.

Absolutely every single private services company is trying to encourage people to carry out their duties online. Banks. Airlines. Travel agents. Mobile phone companies. Try getting hold of a human being navigating some of the phone contact numbers for these organisations.

If you think that privatising the motor tax system would lead to a situation where you've nice efficient no queuing renewal offices operated by a private operator, I'm sorry, you're wrong. NCT is run by a private operator. I'm not sure anyone would agree that it's better and more organised than Motor Tax Renewals given the issues people occasionally have getting an appointment for a legally mandated test.

JillyQ

Calina wrote: »

Absolutely every single private services company is trying to encourage people to carry out their duties online. Banks. Airlines. Travel agents. Mobile phone companies. Try getting hold of a human being navigating some of the phone contact numbers for these organisations.

If you think that privatising the motor tax system would lead to a situation where you've nice efficient no queuing renewal offices operated by a private operator, I'm sorry, you're wrong. NCT is run by a private operator. I'm not sure anyone would agree that it's better and more organised than Motor Tax Renewals given the issues people occasionally have getting an appointment for a legally mandated test.

My car was NCT'd last friday it was in & out in 25 mins. Booked it in six weeks ago. I saw someone in there who needed a retest for a minor issue have there car booked in for 7am the following morning are you under the impression that you would get anyone in the motor tax office to start work at 7am in the morning.

Calina

JillyQ wrote: »

My car was NCT'd last friday it was in & out in 25 mins. Booked it in six weeks ago. I saw someone in there who needed a retest for a minor issue have there car booked in for 7am the following morning are you under the impression that you would get anyone in the motor tax office to start work at 7am in the morning.

In a lot of countries, JillyQ, you don't have to book six weeks in advance. In this country it can be difficult to get an appointment three months in advance at certain times of the year. Not only that, not everyone can get that 7am appointment.

You can do your motor tax online at any time of the day or night and this holds for most people. The vast majority people do not have to go anywhere near a motor tax office and this is how it should be.

JillyQ

Calina wrote: »

In a lot of countries, JillyQ, you don't have to book six weeks in advance. In this country it can be difficult to get an appointment three months in advance at certain times of the year. Not only that, not everyone can get that 7am appointment.

You can do your motor tax online at any time of the day or night and this holds for most people. The vast majority people do not have to go anywhere near a motor tax office and this is how it should be.

Maybe your right i used it as an example try dealing with any administrative side of any government department outside of 9.30 am to 4pm & you are on to a looser.

[Deleted User]

JillyQ wrote: »

Maybe your right i used it as an example try dealing with any administrative side of any government department outside of 9.30 am to 4pm & you are on to a looser.

Try dealing with a lot of private businesses outside of office hours and you wont get any joy either, hence why they are called "office hours". There is absolutely no need for the motor tax office to be open at 7am.

Vizzy

JillyQ wrote: »

Its the relevant councils that issue them

Wrong again !!

Nothing to do with the Local Council, the disc is issued from Shannon and as I say it doesn't matter what part of the country you are living in, you should get your disc in a matter of days.

JillyQ

Yara Old Backyard wrote: »

Try dealing with a lot of private businesses outside of office hours and you wont get any joy either, hence why they are called "office hours". There is absolutely no need for the motor tax office to be open at 7am.

Really if i call the likes of UPC, Vodafone, banks, my insurance company etc i will actually get through to someone up to about 10pm at night time all be it in a call centre. There is absolutely no reason why something like the motor tax cant be done like that.

[Deleted User]

JillyQ wrote: »

Really if i call the likes of UPC, Vodafone, banks, my insurance company etc i will actually get through to someone up to about 10pm at night time all be it in a call centre. There is absolutely no reason why something like the motor tax cant be done like that.

There is no need for it, the vast majority of people just renew online or go to the office during office hours. Renewing your tax is not a complex procedure requiring call centres open all hours of the day and night, internet providers and phone companies etc are different there can be problems that need sorting on the spot at anytime etc.

I renew my tax online every year and have done for years without ever having to go near the office. The only time I was having to go to the office was when I was going 3 months on 2 months off and getting the car signed off the road regularly. Nowadays taxing a commercial for the first time or some other rare occurrence with arrears etc are the only reason you would need to do anything other than what's offered on line.

Also phone banking out of hours is the same as internet banking. You can do everyday tasks but you wont be organizing a loan or a mortgage or taking to the manager of your branch.

Jawgap

JillyQ wrote: »

you missed the point even when it is ordered online it can still take over two weeks to get it.

Order it early then.

Or we follow the NI model and do away with discs and invest in ANPR technology.

There's loads of things we can do to streamline our public services but as long as people are wedded to having them delivered from physical locations they'll continue to be costly. Politicians don't see any votes in closing council offices, Garda stations, HSE facilities etc

evolving_doors

JillyQ wrote: »

your lucky that you can get it within 2 days, where i am it can take over 2 weeks to get it. Also if you happen to be Unfortunate enough to have to go into the motor tax office at the start of the month it can take up two hours to get it done while some of the counters are closed and other staff just get up and walk off while there is a queue of people there waiting. That to me is not efficient.
efficient.

It sounds like they are understaffed to me...

Anyhow... did my road tax online last week, took 2 minutes, disc in post this morning. Perfect system... and you want to privatise it!!

JillyQ

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It sounds like they are understaffed to me...

Anyhow... did my road tax online last week, took 2 minutes, disc in post this morning. Perfect system... and you want to privatise it!!

Its a cost that they can get rid of by either privatising it or sub contracting it out. I would love to see the use of the ANPR's rolled more. As that would be beneficial to private sector.