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Off Topic Thread too point uh

RuggieBear

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dregin

.ak wrote: »

I think it is a shocking attitude also. Recreational drug use has been a habit of humans for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's part of us, it's part of our vices, whether we like it or not. And it will continue to be.

If you're part of this generation and frequent clubs/gigs and you HAVEN'T done a pill or MDMA then you're probably in the minority.

The fact is most young people do them, I know a lot of people who don't drink but will do MDMA because they consider it safer. That's the sort of attitude we're dealing with. People are taking these drugs in an environment where they're considered safe, and their peers consider them safe because they have experience with them, they're cheap too. They cost between €5-10 for a pill and for an 18 year old like Ana she'd only need the one for the night.

So what does this mean? Demand. The problem with that is you get Cowboys making these things. For those that don't know a pill is supposed to be MDMA and usually a bonding agent, but primarily MDMA. Now adays only about 10% of the pill is MDMA and the rest is garbage, yet they're 'stronger' than they were 10 years ago. You do the math. When possible these kids should be buying pure MDMA and not pills and to buy test kits, they're cheap and can be bought on eBay. IF they're going to do them they should be safe.

Was a gun pointed at Ana's head? No. Was she forced into doing it? No. Did she feel safe doing it? Probably. At the end of the day it's an on going investigation so we cannot speculate, but speaking from experience a lot of young people do their research before they put anything into their body, and I suppose one telling stat you get straight away is the recorded deaths from alcohol vs MDMA.

I think if you're educated on the culture here you'd also be shocked at that posters attitude and the amount of thanks the post received, very sad and telling of how backwards this country can be. It's an indictment of the government too, these things need to be regulated before it's safe.

I think it says a lot that people who frequent the above need pills to enjoy themselves. I know far too many people who've gotten into drugs through pills and ended up on heroin to entertain the thought of doing pills. I probably wouldn't have as much an issue with them, if they were actually regulated. After all, BEEEEEEERRRRR.

[Deleted User]

OldRio wrote: »

Utter bollox. Prof. Nutt is well named.

Perhaps you should google who he is.

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Development_of_a_rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_of_potential_misuse_%28physical_harm_and_dependence%2C_NA_free_means%29.svg

OldRio

No need to find out who he is. I read your original link and came to my own conclusion.

[Deleted User]

OldRio wrote: »

No need to find out who he is. I read your original link and came to my own conclusion.

Okay. So perhaps you might realise that he's pretty well placed to analyze and understand the data that they had available to them regarding drug harm? And that the conclusions are well supported?

Ecstasy is about as safe a drug as you can get.

OldRio

In regard to Prof Nutt. Intelligence and common sense are not the same bedfellows.

[Deleted User]

Intelligence and common sense don't really have anything to do with drug harm though, and that's Professor David John Nutt DM FRCP FRCPsych FMedSci

a British psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist specialising in the research of drugs that affect the brain and conditions such as addiction, anxiety and sleep.

.ak

Podge_irl wrote: »

When you say clubs what exactly do you mean ak? Genuinely curious, I wouldn't have a scooby about this kind of thing.

Nightclubs, music venues etc.

Podge_irl

Just normal nightclubs? If it's going on all around me fair enough, but I honestly would not have had a clue. I know some of my friends have dabbled but very much a minority.

[Deleted User]

Podge_irl wrote: »

Just normal nightclubs? If it's going on all around me fair enough, but I honestly would not have had a clue. I know some of my friends have dabbled but very much a minority.

Yeah, I must have hung out with a fairly quiet crowd. No one ever took anything beyond a drink, and we would have gone out a reasonable amount. I honestly wonder am I really nieve because I have never encountered drug culture within my group of friends nor have I had any interactions on nights out with anyone selling or taking drugs (that I noticed).

I don't have a problem with what anyone else is into, but I've zero experience of it myself and am amazed at times to hear that it is so apparently widespread. Maybe I was a generation too soon (am early 30's).

LostArt

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have a problem with what anyone else is into, but I've zero experience of it myself and am amazed at times to hear that it is so apparently widespread. Maybe I was a generation too soon (am early 30's).

I'm 30 and have always been aware of it, but certainly in the last 5 or so years I've noticed it to be far more widespread

.ak

Buer wrote: »

I think you're making a massive assumption there, .ak, when you say:

You're right. I wrote that in haste and didn't mean it - I meant people who frequent nightclubs, music venues and festivals. That element of our current generation.

Most young people in a particular social circle do them, largely concentrated around the club scene (as opposed to your average Saturday night in the local nightclub where people take them but far fewer). You can go to clubs or gigs and not encounter anyone taking pills. I know a few of my friends did them, on occasion, but the majority of us didn't and we were all avid gig and festival attendees.

It's not part of us. It's something that has exploded in the past 25 years in Ireland. Before that, it was unusual for people to have had anything more than a joint.

The type of vice may have changed, but it has been around for a lot longer than that. What I mean by that is you can go back hundreds of years and find humans using some sort of intoxicating substance. It wasn't that long ago that opium was a house hold thing.

Regarding the incident, yes, it's a tragedy and I feel sorry for her family. But I've limited sympathy for her. The dangers of drugs are hugely documented and communicated to us throughout our youth. The alcohol argument employed by users is a red herring and is a topic for a completely different discussion; we all know alcohol carries its own dangers. But that has got nothing to do with the fact that people are taking an illegal and unregulated substance that has known dangers.

Regarding the testing kits, people aren't going to use testing kits on a night out if they purchase a pill in a club. Also, going on the comments from a consultant on Newstalk this morning, the testing kits are nowhere near sufficient. To accurately test these substances, they require proper lab work and testing. The online kits are very hit and miss, according to him.

That's fine, and I agree with your point, but that's not the point I'm making. I'm just saying that people can be more intelligent about it IF they are going to do it in the first place. The idea of buying of some randomer in a club is going to lead you into trouble at some stage. Young people can be far more intelligent about it.

A friend of mine is a lab technician and a pharmacuitical chemist he said the test kits, when concerning MDMA, are generally accurate because the MDMA sequence is quite basic in its make up. When you're testing for particular types of other drugs, i.e; when a test kit reads this may contain fillers such as X, Y, and Z that's when the accuracy drops significantly. Ideally you should just be looking for an MDMA content though.

In other countries, such as Germany, there are websites which consistently test pills in a lab, put up pictures and reports of them, where they were bought, what they contain etc. etc. so people can check what's being distributed, what to avoid, etc. etc.

People won't stop taking these, so I'd like to see an effort to make them more safe rather than looking down our noses when a young girl suffers from it.

.ak

Podge_irl wrote: »

Just normal nightclubs? If it's going on all around me fair enough, but I honestly would not have had a clue. I know some of my friends have dabbled but very much a minority.

Well depends on your view of 'normal' nightclubs, but I've worked in nearly every major music venue in Dublin, without naming the venues themselves, and it's very much a done thing. The thing is, most people are intelligent about it and don't go broadcasting it to the world or upsetting other people around them. But there is always an element that don't subscribe to that...

.ak

dregin wrote: »

I think it says a lot that people who frequent the above need pills to enjoy themselves. I know far too many people who've gotten into drugs through pills and ended up on heroin to entertain the thought of doing pills. I probably wouldn't have as much an issue with them, if they were actually regulated. After all, BEEEEEEERRRRR.

That's terrible for them, if that's the case, but they'd be the exception rather than the rule.

A study was done recently about the effects of addiction from drug use. Only a tiny minority of people become addicted after recreational drug use. The idea that the 'lighter' drugs are a stepping stone to the harder stuff is a myth.

.ak

Also, FWIW, the tragic case involving Ana, has yet to be confirmed that MDMA was the cause of the issue. Only the Irish Mirror are running with that from what I can see.

.ak

Burgo wrote: »

But they area banned already.

They are but I think it highlights the issues - making these illegal means they're unregulated and being filled with garbage.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. Fine, keep them illegal, but make them more safe because people won't stop taking them.

Buer

I do think that some level of regulation should be examined (but I doubt it will ever come to pass) as the safest approach.

But the problem is that it does lead to normalizing drug culture and can bring things down a dark path. It taking a pill becomes as normal as having a pint, there will undoubtedly be an increase in people willing to try something that is far more addictive and harmful such as cocaine.

Bridge93

I thought I heard that she thought it was E but it appears to be something far more dangerous instead. PMA I think it was called?

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

I think you're making a massive assumption there, .ak, when you say:

Most young people in a particular social circle do them, largely concentrated around the club scene (as opposed to your average Saturday night in the local nightclub where people take them but far fewer). You can go to clubs or gigs and not encounter anyone taking pills. I know a few of my friends did them, on occasion, but the majority of us didn't and we were all avid gig and festival attendees.

It's not part of us. It's something that has exploded in the past 25 years in Ireland. Before that, it was unusual for people to have had anything more than a joint.

Regarding the incident, yes, it's a tragedy and I feel sorry for her family. But I've limited sympathy for her. The dangers of drugs are hugely documented and communicated to us throughout our youth. The alcohol argument employed by users is a red herring and is a topic for a completely different discussion; we all know alcohol carries its own dangers. But that has got nothing to do with the fact that people are taking an illegal and unregulated substance that has known dangers.

Regarding the testing kits, people aren't going to use testing kits on a night out if they purchase a pill in a club. Also, going on the comments from a consultant on Newstalk this morning, the testing kits are nowhere near sufficient. To accurately test these substances, they require proper lab work and testing. The online kits are very hit and miss, according to him.

I dont think it's fair to say most people do them on a normal weekend at a club, in fact I think if you were to do a survey on how many do you'd get pretty low numbers, but if you were to ask how have done it once, or ocassionally at music festivals, the numbers would be a lot higher. And it really only takes one 'mistake' for something to go wrong. It's easy to say now that you know the dangers and you get what's coming to you etc, but I really think that's 2020 hindsight talking

.ak

Buer wrote: »

I do think that some level of regulation should be examined (but I doubt it will ever come to pass) as the safest approach.

But the problem is that it does lead to normalizing drug culture and can bring things down a dark path. It taking a pill becomes as normal as having a pint, there will undoubtedly be an increase in people willing to try something that is far more addictive and harmful such as cocaine.

I don't think so. It's as easy to get as a pint now! I think there is a link between intelligence and addiction though, as simple as that sounds but there are correlations already there, I'm trying to find the study I read on it recently.. But the point is that people vulnerable to addiction already have access to them and that won't change.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

But the problem is that it does lead to normalizing drug culture and can bring things down a dark path. It taking a pill becomes as normal as having a pint, there will undoubtedly be an increase in people willing to try something that is far more addictive and harmful such as cocaine.

This is based of nothing whatsoever, but I wonder if there is at all the possiblity of the opposite effect? So many illegal drugs are safer than alcohol that perhaps the warnings lose all impact as people just don't take them seriously and this could make them more likely to try drugs such as cocaine.

.ak

Bridge93 wrote: »

I thought I heard that she thought it was E but it appears to be something far more dangerous instead. PMA I think it was called?

All speculation at this stage.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

The idea that the 'lighter' drugs are a stepping stone to the harder stuff is a myth.

It's not a myth, really, although there's arguments against it. There are studies supporting both sides of the argument but there's certainly evidence supporting the idea that accessibility to softer drugs, particularly at a younger age, leads to people trying harder stuff.

There's studies against it too but it's certainly a very valid debate and all these studies are done in an environment where drugs are illegal and more difficult to come by.

[Deleted User]

.ak wrote: »

That's terrible for them, if that's the case, but they'd be the exception rather than the rule.

A study was done recently about the effects of addiction from drug use. Only a tiny minority of people become addicted after recreational drug use. The idea that the 'lighter' drugs are a stepping stone to the harder stuff is a myth.

It is and it isn't, there's certainly credence in the claim that people who buy pills/weed are more likely to see opportunities to try harder stuff. Introduced to different circles etc.

But that's a social dynamic and not got much to do with any sort of 'gateway claim' laid at the foot of the drug itself. Similar consideration would be the idea that a newbie training at a 'Leisure Centre' Gym would be less likely to get involved with Steroids etc than if they'd started at a 'meathead' gym. It's not to do with the actual physical gym, nor the exercise chosen, but the interactions that the individual gyms can create.

Here's a fantastic article on the failure of the War on Drugs that I think you'd like. There are a lot of drug myths that people are far too afraid to talk about and dispel.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

I don't think so. It's as easy to get as a pint now! I think there is a link between intelligence and addiction though, as simple as that sounds but there are correlations already there, I'm trying to find the study I read on it recently.. But the point is that people vulnerable to addiction already have access to them and that won't change.

But you're using your experience and the social circles you experience as your barometer. If you asked me to get you some pills I'd have to ring a guy I know and ask him if he knows anyone and, if successful, meet them somewhere. It takes effort to get drugs. Most people wouldn't know someone who could sell them one.

Having to phone around and agree to meet someone (assuming you know who to call) is not nearly as available as dropping around the corner to your local pub or shop to get a pill. There's also the stigma attached with them being illegal. A lot of people won't touch them because of it. Make them legal and you'd have far more people trying them out due to curiosity.

I know a good few people who wouldn't dream of touching an illegal pill who took pills from head shops simply because they were completely legal to consume.

[Deleted User]

Here's my speculation: this girl would still be alive if a large percentage of common designer drugs were decimalised and regulated.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's my speculation: this girl would still be alive if a large percentage of common designer drugs were decimalised and regulated.

Cocaine is one of the most common designer drugs and is horribly addictive and damaging.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's my speculation: this girl would still be alive if a large percentage of common designer drugs were decimalised and regulated.

I don't think weighing them in grams rather than ounces will make them less dangerous... or maybe you meant decriminalised?

[Deleted User]

Worth reading about Portugal's efforts when discussing decriminalisation too.

[Deleted User]

Zzippy wrote: »

I don't think weighing them in grams rather than ounces will make them less dangerous... or maybe you meant decriminalised?

I am a staunch advocate of the metric system!

.ak

Buer wrote: »

But you're using your experience and the social circles you experience as your barometer. If you asked me to get you some pills I'd have to ring a guy I know and ask him if he knows anyone and, if successful, meet them somewhere. It takes effort to get drugs. Most people wouldn't know someone who could sell them one.

Having to phone around and agree to meet someone (assuming you know who to call) is not nearly as available as dropping around the corner to your local pub or shop to get a pill. There's also the stigma attached with them being illegal. A lot of people won't touch them because of it. Make them legal and you'd have far more people trying them out due to curiosity.

I know a good few people who wouldn't dream of touching an illegal pill who took pills from head shops simply because they were completely legal to consume.

But doesn't that mean it's more to do with the social circle, education and vulnerability itself rather than the pill being a stepping stone?