Roger Hassenforder wrote: » you think the city should be extended out to Midleton?:rolleyes: Why not Mallow and Bandon while you are at it?
rebs23 wrote: » I think you will find the key word there "environs" which is the area surrounding the city and excluding the city council area. What point are you trying to prove with that link? It is as simple as this the Central Statistics Ofiice, link provided already states the population of Cork City and suburbs is 198,000. Many people however would consider that areas such as Carrigaline, Passage West, Carrigtohill, Blarney, Tower and possibly even Cobh or Midleton which are urban areas that ring the City and suburbs (but currently not enumerated as being suburbs by the CSO) should be included in any city boundary extension thereby giving the city the space for expansion and ensure that we won't have the same problem in 20 years time where the city boundary does not accurately reflect the actual population of the city. A proper extension of the city boundary to capture all the current urban centres that are close and ring the city would see a new Cork City with a population of between 250,000 to 300,000 people and would cater for future expansion and growth. As it stands Cork City and the surrounding urban area is larger than the combined populations of Waterford, Limerick and Galway City and suburbs and we need a proper extension to reflect the actual urban population of Cork so we can secure much needed public and private investment.
rebs23 wrote: » I only said possibly about Cobh and Midleton. Just think any extension needs to be big enough to last 50'years. Cobh and Midleton with the commuter rail service and their closeness to the city would justify being included in a boundary extension. Politically however that is probably not going to happen which is a pity. In fairness abandon and Mallow are much further out.
Reputable Rog wrote: » North and south environs are the built up area of Cork City under the jurisdiction of Cork County Council. Combined with the city proper this forms the Cork a Urban Area.
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » Current population of Metropolitan Cork, as already stated in thread is 289,739. Metropolitan Cork is City, North and South Environs, and the "satellite town" of Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtohill, Cobh, Glanmire, Midleton and Passage West. http://epublications.snap.com.au/ebook/ebook?id=10040632#/0 Population of the city on its own is 119,230http://epublications.snap.com.au/ebook/ebook?id=10036632#/18 Little talk of the green belt to the North of the City, the open space near Blarney. An Expansion of the City towards and to Tower, Blarney, , Ballincollig/Ovens, Whitechurch, Upper and lower Glanmire would spatially more than double the city's size. Increasing the spatial size of the City may not be a good thing. Why is there the need to grow out? Grow up. Design better. Urban sprawls with dependencies on roads are clearly not the answer. Your use of the term "capture" is interesting. The expansion is what it is, a land grab, but more importantly, a grab for a share of the rate base Cork County enjoys. It's almost Putinesque!
munstermagic11 wrote: » What if these towns (Cobh, Midleton, Carrigaline) don't want to be part of the City boundaries? Genuinely just asking the question, I can't say I've an issue either way.
mire wrote: » This last sentence about land grabs and Putin shows why this boundary extension needs to be sorted at a national level and how important it is to encourage a mature debate. Cork's boundary is 50 years out of date, and it shoudl have been changed many years ago. The councils don't 'own' the land, they administer the territory. This childish land grab stuff has no place in a proper debate about Cork
mire wrote: » It depends. How do you gauge this? A vote?
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » apologies for offending your senior sensibilities with my childish comments. However, not only do local authorities "administer" their functional areas, they also actually own parcels of land. its a bit more complicated see, but sure I'm only a child so you might have to explain it to me... :rolleyes: (it is a land grab BTW!) Why should this be sorted at a national level? By who, The Dail? Its a local issue. Abdication of decision to central authority is symptomatic of the current disconnect between local and central government. We've ratified the Lisbon (subsidiarity) treaty, but are one of the worst countries to implement it. a A local plebiscite is probably the way to go, but should this vote be confined to areas potentially affected, or to the entire county as well? its a Cork issue and should be decided by Cork people.
mire wrote: » When the debate descends to 'land grabbing accusations', it slips towards and irrelevant blather about lebelsraum, putinesque rubbish (your contribution) and childish jibes about who owns what. This matter has largely been ignored for the last 50 years because of that attitiude. Don't worry, I am not offended, but I'll admit that I find that stuff a bit depressing to read. It's so predictable. BTW, it is not simply a 'local' issue and is in my opinion too important to be decided simply on the basis of knee jerk localist parish pump politics. This issue has been detrimental for Cork and it is an issue of national importance - Cork is the state's second city - it deserves a governing unit big enough to represent its metropolitan area. Your point about land ownership is entirely irrelavant. When a boundary extension happens, one authority pays the other for any land and property transferred. In Ireland also, local authorities own very little land and property - relative to almost all countries in Europe. It's actually not an important issue at all. It's a techincal detail. Most cities expand their boundaries evry so often - it's what happens as cities expand. No big deal really. Although a local plebiscite sounds interesting I think it is impractical and has no real precedent. Government is elected to make these types of decisions. I do agree though that Cork should influence the decision and should not allow itself to be subjected to bad decisions - like waterford and limerick for example.
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » Yea, let it expand a bit, it's overdue, but lets not lose the run of ourselves, this talk of expanding to Ringaskiddy, Midleton etc is nuts.
rebs23 wrote: » Letting it expand a bit will only mean in 20 years time the boundary we will be in the exact same position as we are now. A situation where the city boundary does not reflect the actual population of the City and Suburbs. You are clearly in favour of a boundary extension so after that its a matter of opinion but whats best for Cork attracting inward investment both private and public? What sounds better a City with a population of 198,000 (an extension to include all the areas the CSO define as the City and Suburbs) or a City with a population of say 298,000 (an extension to include all the outlying towns and suburban areas that are close and linked by a continuous urban corridor)?
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » I'm in favour of that which makes Cork a better place to live, not a desire to have the population reach some figure. That's what is so attractive about Cork, it's small and compact, isn't a Dublin sprawl. An expansion is needed, but I fear this quality will be lost.
http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/billion-euro-loss-for-the-county-in-metropolitan-boundary-change/ In its submission the county council examined five separate options before recommending a single combined city and county council. Option one was a do-nothing approach and maintaining the current boundary. Option two was the addition of urban areas directly connected to the city such as Douglas and parts of Ballyvolane. Option three adds the suburban areas of Ballincollig, Glanmire and Little Island to the city but keeps areas such as Carrigaline and Blarney in the county. Option four expands the city to cover the entire metropolitan area stretching from Ovens to Midleton and from Blarney to Ringaskiddy. The final option they examined was a fully combined city and county council.While favoured by County Hall a combined super council has been rejected by the city council. The chief executive of Cork City Council Ann Doherty said recently that a combined council would not allow the city of Cork to grow to its full potential.
Dannyboy83 wrote: » I would be interested to hear the reasons why a combined super council is objectionable to the city council and why it would prevent Cork growing to it's full potential. Does anyone have further info?
alaimacerc wrote: » None at all, but I'm guessing if you suggest this to a City politician, it sounds a lot like "we're abolishing the city council". Why, that'd be to imply Cork was no more super-special-snowflake than the likes of -- gasp! -- Waterford!
KCAccidental wrote: » City rates would be drained by having to budget for the entire county as well. It would paralyze the city. There is no local authority in the state that has to cater for a population any where near 480,000. It makes me laugh to see the county council play the poor mouth on this. They have been leeching off of the immediate suburbs for years to the detriment of the City.
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » on a lap top, can finally post proposed expansion:
alaimacerc wrote: » That's the old proposal, back from 2006. Unless I'm wildly misunderstanding!
KCAccidental wrote: » City rates would be drained by having to budget for the entire county as well.
It would paralyze the city. There is no local authority in the state that has to cater for a population any where near 480,000.
http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentReform/News/MainBody,40018,en.htm “The option of unifying the city and county structures in Cork should also be considered in view of the potential benefits such as strengthening local government, elimination of administrative duplication, improved service delivery, greater efficiency, economies of scale and more cohesive and effective economic development,” said Mr Kelly
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » on a lap top, can finally post proposed expansion: Funny they don't want Ballincollig or Carrigaline, but do want Little Island, the Airport when they want to grow the City's population... Douglas, Togher, Glanmire and Frankfield should be part of the city though, makes no sense not to be. interesting use of the term "leeches", wonder do you know where the leeches might actually be? from: Report of the Local Government Efficiency Review Group No. staff/1000 population at end of 2009 Cork City: 11.9 report notes: "an excessive level of senior management staffing when compared with levels nationally" Cork County: 6.5 from 2008 to 2013, 879 staff have left Cork County Council — a 29.6% reduction. However, Cork City Council has seen its number drop by a more modest 263 employees — a drop of 17.2%. Ref. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fireland%2Fstaff-levels-at-local-authorities-fall-25-234278.html&ei=9FwkVYO1ItX1auzZgPAO&usg=AFQjCNEIHK3I428_priFsyo0xw-2LwK_mg&sig2=6q_o8UUdF2bvLd4beFAFNg&bvm=bv.89947451,bs.1,d.ZGU some comparable KPIs (albeit 2010) from here % days lost as sickies: City: 1.17 County: 0.89 Unaccounted for water: City: 55.2% County: 49.5% Time to re-let housing stock: City: 31.5weeks County:16.3weeks Drill into the stats, you'll see one organization is lean, comparable staffing levels, and fairly efficiently run, the other, well, not so... I agree merging the two would be an absolute shambles. Rural needs are very different from Urban. You'd have Cllrs from Alihees rowing with Cllrs from Mayfield about road surfacing allocations V. housing repairs. There's an argument for absorbing Cork City into Carrigaline Municipal District all right...
Roger Hassenforder wrote: » I think it's the same? Can't find latest one
