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narcissistic children

suicide_circus

So a study from the University of Amsterdamdraws a link between constant praise and narcissism in children. It has been in vogue for some decades now for parents to leave their children in little doubt that they are the most specialest snowflake in all the land. While this is well intentioned, it seems that it is having a negative impact.

The study evaluated more than 560 children between the ages of seven and 11 over 18 months. It found that parental overvaluation was the largest cause of narcissism in a child, but did not necessarily provide them with good self-esteem.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-moriarty/why-overpraising-may-be-responsible-for-a-generation-of-narcissistic-children-31075427.html

As with most cringe worthy vacuous trends,this seems to have been a US import. As I child, when I excelled I was told"well done" but not to be conceited - when I didn't do well, I was commiserated but also commended for my effort and encouraged to try harder next time - that's as far as it went, I was never allowed to develop"notions".

Any opinions? It stands to reason that if achild is constantly praised and cajoled that that they will develop inaccurate image of themselves and their place in the world - destined to failure and disappointment once they get out in the real world.

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The Corinthian

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Well he was gorgeous so that helped. There were no more relations after that session though.

Been there, done that... but not from your perspective naturally.

jimgoose

I've been around just long enough to be able to appraise somewhat the results of this New Parenting thing that became a thing around the early '90s, i.e. constant praise, encouragement, never being allowed to fail, days filled with being driven around by Mommy dearest to soccer/Taekwon-Do/Jolly hockey-sticks/etc, and I have concluded that it has produced a generation of selfish, entitled, bullying little monsters the likes of which has not been seen.

conorhal

The Corinthian wrote: »

Been there, done that... but not from your perspective naturally.

But rather from the perspective of your reflection in the mirror?

That story is the truest tale of narcisism I've ever heard, after all narcisism is a term coined in reference to the Greek, Narcissus who saw his own reflection in a pool of water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus drowned.

Good enough for him I say!

syklops

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

There was a similar study done about using 'child talk' and speaking to kids in that childish voice everyone does when addressing kids. Apparently speaking to kids like this can slow down their social skill development and kids who are spoken to by adults in normal conversational manner learn to hold good conversations and socialise better.

Inb4 people starting speaking to their children about the economy over breakfast

Overheard in Dublin. Five year old on the Luas goes "Mammy whats a bond holder?"

I nearly wet myself.

The Corinthian

conorhal wrote: »

That story is the truest tale of narcisism I've ever heard, after all narcisism is a term coined in reference to the Greek, Narcissus who saw his own reflection in a pool of water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus drowned.

It's more common in Italy than many care to admit. My great-grandfather in particular was constantly checking himself out in mirrors.

It reminds me of a story my great-aunt told me once. During the war, RAF and American pilots shot down over Italy were put into POW camps. Occasionally there was an escape, but very few were not spotted within 24 hours and recaptured.

"How were they so easily spotted?", I asked. "They were too badly dressed to be Italian, so they made a terrible brutta figura in public" was her answer.

seamus

I think primarily what constant praise for everything does for children is not turn them into assholes, but instead turn them into persistent underachievers.

The aspiration to succeed, the drive to accomplish comes from the knowledge that you've beaten failure. It is through failure that you learn the most important lessons and that you experience the harshest setbacks. But in doing so you come to understand the true value of succeeding, of celebrating your successes and working hard to achieve them.

If people are constantly praised for what they do, then you diminish their drive to succeed. After all, if success is easily won, you won't chase it. It also means that failure becomes that much more devastating when it does come, that it can really badly shake your confidence. If failure is not normal, then having failed must mean that you really fncked up.

I was thinking about this last night in the context of public speaking. The ability to speak in public comes from confidence. But not cockiness or arrogance. But from the confidence that you believe in what you are saying, while not being afraid to say something incorrect. Growing up, my primary fear in public speaking was that I'd say something stupid and people would immediately judge me. But if you realise that saying something incorrect is not a "bad" thing - it's a normal thing, no-one's perfect - then you become less afraid to speak publicly and say what's on your mind. And being corrected or told you're wrong isn't an insult or a judgement.

It is of course, a balancing act. If children are instead constantly berated for failure and only marginally praised for succeeding, then they will learn to fear failure. And rather than use that as motivation to not fail, it becomes motivation to not even bother trying. Since trying usually leads to failure in one form or another, then you're better off not trying at all.

The key is celebrate actual successes and commiserate on failures, while encouraging them to try again.

Baggy Trousers

Kids these days have become complete praise junkies for sure.
I also think they are way more confident which is a good thing in many ways.

suicide_circus

The computer game industry might play in to this as well. Games built around successive achievements all designed to fire the synaptic reward nodes - kids (and adults) gaining a sense of accomplishment as they go from level to level, all the while achieving nothing real or tangible. A kid feels great after completing the latest Call of Duty, his prize? Obesity and the thumbs of an octogenarian.

bullvine

Seen a friend on Facebook the other day saying how he couldn't be prouder of his 5 year old daughter getting 13 medals at a Irish Dancing competition, no wonder these kids are fecking narcissistic, what sort of nonsense do you get 13 fecking medals for!

Egginacup

A woman I know constantly pampered and fawned over her son. Telling him he was super, and brilliant, etc. He was/is a nice kid but he is tbh mediocre. Anyway this never deterred his mother who slathered him with praise.

One time the mother was called down to the school for a "chat" when the kid was maybe 9 or 10. As it turned out the school had purchased a new piano. The kid let it be known that he could play very well and the teachers agreed that the following day he would play while all the others stood in the assembly hall in attendance. He got up on the stage and couldn't play a fucking note.

When his mother got him home and asked him why he said he could play the piano he told her that she always told him he could do anything and everything.

Such was her pumping up of him that he had no grasp of reality.

He seems a bit more grounded now that he's a teenager, but still he would have been better off had she not ruined him in his earlier years

[Deleted User]

I have rarely or every come across parents who over praise children in fact I can only think of one parent who behaves like that, is it that common, you will also find its more common with parents who have issues with how they themselves were raised.

A much bigger thing I see is parents who have chips on their shoulder re their education or where they grew up and so on, trying to fix things through their children, i.e. ..I dint do well in school but your going to work in school and as a result putting the child under enormous pressure.

Philo Beddoe

Egginacup wrote: »

A woman I know constantly pampered and fawned over her son. Telling him he was super, and brilliant, etc. He was/is a nice kid but he is tbh mediocre. Anyway this never deterred his mother who slathered him with praise.

One time the mother was called down to the school for a "chat" when the kid was maybe 9 or 10. As it turned out the school had purchased a new piano. The kid let it be known that he could play very well and the teachers agreed that the following day he would play while all the others stood in the assembly hall in attendance. He got up on the stage and couldn't play a fucking note.

When his mother got him home and asked him why he said he could play the piano he told her that she always told him he could do anything and everything.

Such was her pumping up of him that he had no grasp of reality.

He seems a bit more grounded now that he's a teenager, but still he would have been better off had she not ruined him in his earlier years

And that child....was Albert Einstein.

Egginacup

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

And that child....was Albert Einstein.

Nah, but he does seem to have a talent now for writing sci-fi / fantasy and has published a few eBooks.

TheBeardedLady

The Corinthian wrote: »

Been there, done that... but not from your perspective naturally.

You had sex with someone while looking at yourself in the mirror? :eek:

I refused him. Vanity to that extent is a serious turn-off for me. Confidence is nice but that kind of narcissism is not normal. He tried to befriend me on Facebook a year ago (this all happened about 12 years ago). Not sure what he expected there.

[Deleted User]

A true narcissist is not someone with an over inflated ego.

This study shows over entitled kids, not narcissist.

Littlekittylou

Deleted User wrote: »

A true narcissist is not someone with an over inflated ego.

This study shows over entitled kids, not narcissist.

A narcissist in my books is someone who does feel empathy. They don't see the uniqueness of others. Praising your kids is fine if you balance it with showing them the value of others in the world around them. They learn others are a unique snowflake too.

Although most individuals have some narcissistic traits, high levels of narcissism can manifest themselves in a pathological form as narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), whereby the patient overestimates his or her abilities and has an excessive need for admiration and affirmation.
Positive: Narcissists think they are better than others.[21]

Inflated: Narcissists' views tend to be contrary to reality. In measures that compare self-report to objective measures, narcissists' self-views tend to be greatly exaggerated.[22]

Agentic: Narcissists’ views tend to be most exaggerated in the agentic domain, relative to the communion domain.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify"]clarification needed[/URL][/I [21][22]

Special: Narcissists perceive themselves to be unique and special people.[23]

Selfish: Research upon narcissists’ behaviour in resource dilemmas supports the case for narcissists as being selfish.[24]

Oriented toward success: Narcissists are oriented towards success by being, for example, approach oriented.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify"]clarification needed[/URL][/I [25]

Narcissists tend to demonstrate a lack of interest in warm and caring interpersonal relationships. [Campbell and Forster (2007)[20]]. There are several ongoing controversies within narcissism literature, namely: whether narcissism is healthy or unhealthy; a personality disorder; a discrete or continuous variable; defensive or offensive; the same across genders; the same across cultures; and changeable or unchangeable.

But there is a healthy level of narcissism according to most

Healthy narcissism is a structural truthfulness of the self, achievement of self and object constancy, synchronization between the self and the superego and a balance between libidinal and aggressive drives (the ability to receive gratification from others and the drive for impulse expression). Healthy narcissism forms a constant, realistic self-interest and mature goals and principles and an ability to form deep object relations.[12] A feature related to healthy narcissism is the feeling of greatness. This is the antithesis of insecurity or inadequacy.

Some people lack this too ....

It's not seeking attention that is the issue it's when that overrides your concern for others. When your urge for greatness overrides concern for others all the time. Obviously sometimes it's ok it's a balance.

Narcissistic rage is a reaction to narcissistic injury, which is a perceived threat to a narcissist's self-esteem or self-worth.Narcissistic rage occurs on a continuum from instances of aloofness, and expression of mild irritation or annoyance, to serious outbursts, including violent attacks.[33] Narcissistic rage reactions are not limited to personality disorders and may be also seen in catatonic, paranoid delusion and depressive episodes.[33] It has also been suggested that narcissists have two layers of rage. The first layer of rage can be thought of as a constant anger (towards someone else), with the second layer being a self-aimed wrath.

Acquired situational narcissism is rare and usually brought on by wealth or fame in youth. Most narcissim is genetic.

The narcissist is goal-orientated. Like a sophisticated cruise missile it homes in on Sources of Narcissistic Supply, "conquers" them, conditions and moulds them and proceeds to extract from them attention, adulation, admiration and affirmation. This process demands the persistent investment of inordinate amounts of energy and time. The narcissist appears to be hell-bent, obsessed, smitten and addicted to the pursuit of his Sources of Supply.
Yet, a curious transformation occurs once he has secured and "chained" them.
The narcissist - often abruptly - loses all interest. It is as though, having acquired them, the narcissist takes his sources for granted. He treats them as he would inanimate objects, devoid of will and unable to free themselves from his mesmerizing mental grip.
Many Sources of Supply, weighed down by the tiring relationship with the narcissist, break loose and escape his venomous influence. The delusion that he is in total control crumbles as the narcissist is abandoned time and again by spouses, mates, friends and colleagues.

Healthy narcissism is a required element in normal development. But it has to be real. I luuuurve complements but i appreciate them... i love giving them too and i mean them. The narcissist takes his sources of narcissistic supply for granted - until he loses them.

You need a little bit of narcissism to be healthy.

But those with a narcissistic disorder have a lack of empathy a lack or boundaries a lack of remorse and a lack of true intimacy.

[Deleted User]

Littlekittylou wrote: »

A narcissist in my books is someone who does feel empathy. They don't see the uniqueness of others. Praising your kids is fine if you balance it with showing them the value of others in the world around them. They learn others are a unique snowflake too.

But there is a healthy level of narcissism according to most

Some people lack this too ....

It's not seeking attention that is the issue it's when that overrides your concern for others. When your urge for greatness overrides concern for others all the time. Obviously sometimes it's ok it's a balance.

Acquired situational narcissism is rare and usually brought on by wealth or fame in youth. Most narcissim is genetic.

The narcissist is goal-orientated. Like a sophisticated cruise missile it homes in on Sources of Narcissistic Supply, "conquers" them, conditions and moulds them and proceeds to extract from them attention, adulation, admiration and affirmation. This process demands the persistent investment of inordinate amounts of energy and time. The narcissist appears to be hell-bent, obsessed, smitten and addicted to the pursuit of his Sources of Supply.
Yet, a curious transformation occurs once he has secured and "chained" them.
The narcissist - often abruptly - loses all interest. It is as though, having acquired them, the narcissist takes his sources for granted. He treats them as he would inanimate objects, devoid of will and unable to free themselves from his mesmerizing mental grip.
Many Sources of Supply, weighed down by the tiring relationship with the narcissist, break loose and escape his venomous influence. The delusion that he is in total control crumbles as the narcissist is abandoned time and again by spouses, mates, friends and colleagues.

Healthy narcissism is a required element in normal development. But it has to be real. I luuuurve complements but i appreciate them... i love giving them too and i mean them. The narcissist takes his sources of narcissistic supply for granted - until he loses them.

You need a little bit of narcissism to be healthy.

But those with a narcissistic disorder have a lack of empathy a lack or boundaries a lack of remorse and a lack of true intimacy.

Oh I had no idea. That's why I wrote my reply

Did you grow up with a naracist too? Then I can understand why you are posting aggressively!

porsche959

syklops wrote: »

Overheard in Dublin. Five year old on the Luas goes "Mammy whats a bond holder?"

I nearly wet myself.

Why?

RedemptionZ

What about narcissists who didn't get any praise from their parents? Where do they get it from? Because they most certainly exist.

percy212

20 billion? Surely you mean trillion? Nobody counts in billions any longer state side.

Katgurl wrote: »

It wasn't my experience when working there in a senior management position for a multinational. They were certainly confident but frequently too busy talking about their alleged achievements (I'm way too busy to follow protocol on this issue, I'm just about to close a twenty billion dollar deal) to get much done.

I was surprised that I found my irish colleagues much more productive.

blatantrereg

Littlekittylou wrote: »

A narcissist in my books is someone who does feel empathy....

But those with a narcissistic disorder have a lack of empathy a lack or boundaries a lack of remorse and a lack of true intimacy.

Good post.

My understanding is that the difference between someone with NPD and a sociopath is that someone with NPD does have a conscience - though think they probably don't express guilt or remorse in conventional manners. A sociopath is a narcissist who's unburdened by a conscience.

I'm not familiar with the notion that narcissism is genetic. Is there evidence to support that? I reckon it is mainly to do with environmental factors when someone is a child - a notion the study being discussed here would support.

I didn't read the journal paper fully, but I think they are talking about narcissism as a trait in general, not only narcissistic personality disorder. [I didn't get the impression you thought otherwise, but I thought it was worth clarifying.]

Eugene Norman

Ok not technically narcissistic. Self entitled. Let's move on.

Littlekittylou

blatantrereg wrote: »

Good post.

My understanding is that the difference between someone with NPD and a sociopath is that someone with NPD does have a conscience - though think they probably don't express guilt or remorse in conventional manners. A sociopath is a narcissist who's unburdened by a conscience.

I'm not familiar with the notion that narcissism is genetic. Is there evidence to support that? I reckon it is mainly to do with environmental factors when someone is a child - a notion the study being discussed here would support.

I didn't read the journal paper fully, but I think they are talking about narcissism as a trait in general, not only narcissistic personality disorder. [I didn't get the impression you thought otherwise, but I thought it was worth clarifying.]

It was just something I had read tbh.

It's harder to talk about narcissism as a general trait. It's something you do actually need a little of. Healthy narcissism is necessary. It's balance.

The paper stressed overvaluing children in relation to undervaluing others was the issue not overvaluing intrinsically. Viewing yourself as uniquely superior was the problem not viewing everyone as unique valuable. Teaching that every child is special is different to teaching a child that they are more than special. Teaching them that showing kindness to their classmates is actually a special trait to have etc. Narcissim is not strong self esteem but is part in a very small way of a healthy person as far I understand. But you have to rein it in.

Eugene Norman

I suspect this self entitlement is working its way into university culture. Hence the no platforming because it might cause "trigger alerts". Don't be upsetting the kids.

The One Doctor

suicide_circus wrote: »

So a study from the University of Amsterdamdraws a link between constant praise and narcissism in children. It has been in vogue for some decades now for parents to leave their children in little doubt that they are the most specialest snowflake in all the land. While this is well intentioned, it seems that it is having a negative impact.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/sinead-moriarty/why-overpraising-may-be-responsible-for-a-generation-of-narcissistic-children-31075427.html

As with most cringe worthy vacuous trends,this seems to have been a US import. As I child, when I excelled I was told"well done" but not to be conceited - when I didn't do well, I was commiserated but also commended for my effort and encouraged to try harder next time - that's as far as it went, I was never allowed to develop"notions".

Any opinions? It stands to reason that if achild is constantly praised and cajoled that that they will develop inaccurate image of themselves and their place in the world - destined to failure and disappointment once they get out in the real world.

You do realise that narcissism is part of a mental illness, right? I doubt the Indo has grasped that fact. And you further realise that most Indo journalists have brains the size of an atom, I hope?

blatantrereg

The One Doctor wrote: »

You do realise that narcissism is part of a mental illness, right? I doubt the Indo has grasped that fact. And you further realise that most Indo journalists have brains the size of an atom, I hope?

It's not necessarily part of a mental illness. In extreme forms it may be part of a personality disorder, which is different to a mental illness. Something resembling narcissism could manifest as parts of certain mental illnesses, for example during mania, but that's not what the study is about.

I don't rate the Independent either, but the article is based on a journal paper which is availabel online. I linked to it earlier in the thread.

Zillah

seamus wrote: »

I think primarily what constant praise for everything does for children is not turn them into assholes, but instead turn them into persistent underachievers.

100% spot on, and science has proven it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9862693/Praise-childrens-effort-not-their-intelligence.html
http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

The short version is this:
It turns out that if you praise children for being inherently brilliant then they will be underachievers because they are afraid of risking failure and therefore running the risk of shattering the illusion of their brilliance, whereas if you praise a child for hard work or effort they will be eager to try new things and tackle challenges because they're eager to do hard work.

Always say "Well done, you must have worked really hard on that".
Never say "Well done, you must be really smart".

The latter will sabotage them.