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Life after suicide: tv programme tonight

Zippie84

Hope it's ok to post this in AH.

Thought about the TV forum, but it's as much related to suicide, and a subject that will no doubt be close to the heart of many, in different ways.

Tonight at 10:35pm, BBC1 is showing "Life after suicide"

In this heartbreaking documentary, Angela Samata, whose partner ended his own life 11 years ago, wants to find out why suicide is still something of a taboo. She travels the country to meet other people affected by it, including actor David Robb (Downton Abbey's Dr Clarkson).

'She just walked out of my life,' says David, whose wife jumped to her death in front of a train. 'It's as if she's been erased in a nuclear explosion.'

At times difficult to watch, this is a brave film that will hopefully achieve Angela’s aim of getting people talking and break down the 'wall of silence'

http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-guide/17-03-15/life-after-suicide

Sounds like a definite worthwhile watch, suicide after all being a subject that will likely be relevant to every single person's life in some way at some point.

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Zippie84

Also, here's an article on / interview with Angela Samata who's presenting the programme:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/real-lives/after-late-husband-took-life-8826264

I work in suicide prevention and while being glad to see this programme being made and more understanding being encouraged through such tv programmes, I am always at the same time hoping that it is done well and not in a way that causes more harm, even if while doing some good.

From what I've read of this so far, it looks like it could be done really well.

She's been head of SOBS (Survivors Of Bereavement by Suicide) and she's involved Professor Rory O'Connor, a leading suicide researcher, so the signs are good that she has a lot of insight through her own experiences through the loss of her partner, she seems to have done her research, as well as having had plenty of other experience (e.g. through SOBS) to bring to the making of the programme.

Lapin

Sounds like one to definitely miss.

Zippie84

Lapin wrote: »

Sounds like one to definitely miss.

There's such a lack of understanding generally about what lies behind suicide, so many misconceptions about suicide that cause a lot of harm, so much stigma that stops us talking about it.. which ultimately makes people less likely to reach out and get help when feeling that way.

Seems very important to change this, and hopefully this programme might be one more very tiny step for society generally in doing so.

Menas

I will record it....I reckon you would need to be in the right mood to watch this one.

Zippie84

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I will record it....I reckon you would need to be in the right mood to watch this one.

Yep, definitely agree, and think it's one to be wary of if people feeling vulnerable themselves.

Also, as such a sensitive issue, it'll be very close to home for some people, and maybe also need to be sensible about whether it's one for them to watch.

Many people will already have so much insight into the subject, and in a way they're perhaps not even the target audience.

So a lot to consider overall if deciding to watch, perhaps.

Lapin

Zippie84 wrote: »

There's such a lack of understanding generally about what lies behind suicide, so many misconceptions about suicide that cause a lot of harm, so much stigma that stops us talking about it.. which ultimately makes people less likely to reach out and get help when feeling that way.

Seems very important to change this, and hopefully this programme might be one more very tiny step for society generally in doing so.

Too painful to watch.

But I do hope some good comes of it.

Its not for me.

Zippie84

Lapin wrote: »

Too painful to watch.

But I do hope some good comes of it.

Its not for me.

Yep when you said it sounded like one to miss, I expected there was a good chance that it could be you meant for you personally rather than generally and for the reason you mentioned i.e. too painful to watch.

While I have no idea what your situation is, I can understand where you are coming from, and I hope you are as ok as can be.

quickbeam

Zippie84 wrote: »

'She just walked out of my life,' says David, whose wife jumped to her death in front of a train. 'It's as if she's been erased in a nuclear explosion.'

I don't think suicide per se is selfish, but I think this method is extremely selfish. Whenever I hear of people doing this my heart goes out to the train driver who has to live with it for the rest of his or her life.

beyondbelief67

I remember reading David's story and how he feels so guilty that his success in downton Abbey had led his wife to feel suicidal because she wasn't getting any parts anymore, and how he can't even remember her laugh or hugs.
It's always the ones left behind who feel the guilt and the why, and if only, what ifs, and no amount of time shakes them from the mind.
I don't know if it happens to others but for me unlike normal grieving ( if there is a normal) in some ways the questions get more, and as guilty as I feel even sometimes anger too.
No I don't think I'll be able to watch either as much as I'd like to as it might help, but no.

Jon Stark

quickbeam wrote: »

I don't think suicide per se is selfish, but I think this method is extremely selfish. Whenever I hear of people doing this my heart goes out to the train driver who has to live with it for the rest of his or her life.

Does selfishness really come into it when someone is in such a frame of mind that they'll end it in such a horrific way? No one in the right frame of mind would do it, that's why I think claiming selfishness is a bit of a non runner.

Zippie84

quickbeam wrote: »

I don't think suicide per se is selfish, but I think this method is extremely selfish. Whenever I hear of people doing this my heart goes out to the train driver who has to live with it for the rest of his or her life.

I agree in a way.

But possibly in a way different from what many people mean it when they say suicide is selfish.

I think that suicide sometimes is selfish, but I think of that in a factual way. I think in a non-judgemental compassionate way, or in so far as is possible.

I think of selfish maybe literally as 'only thinking of yourself, and not others', and that it can be the case with suicide that how bad you feel, that how desperate you are can leave you unable to see beyond that, unable to see beyond needing to find a way to end the pain you are in.

It breaks my heart to think of anyone in such pain, that they would be willing to that to themselves.

It equally breaks my heart to think of the train driver (of equivalent using other methods which affect other people in similar ways who are involved), the trauma it would likely cause them, the impact on their lives, I couldn't even begin to imagine what it would be like in their place.

I do think the way that I feel that suicide can factually sometimes be selfish in that you're in so much pain and turmoil and desperation that you sometimes can't see beyond that, is very different from how many people mean it when they say that people who take their own lives are selfish.

Comparing it with my family for example. I've attempted suicide, and they know this. They don't talk to me about it. Yet three times in the past I've been present with my family when one of them have heard that someone they knew has ended their own life. And on all three occasion someone immediately commented something like 'that really is the most selfish thing anyone can do', in a way that seems to show very little understanding of what it must have taken for a person to do that, and what lies behind suicide.

I know that the affect on those left behind is unbelievable, but it's just so far from the black and white that some people in my life seem to think it as being. And I want them to understand it more, but it seems to often be those who haven't felt actively suicidal (as far as I know) that have least understanding, so at the same time I never want them to get it - not if it means they would feel that way.

MarkAnthony

Jon Stark wrote: »

Does selfishness really come into it when someone is in such a frame of mind that they'll end it in such a horrific way? No one in the right frame of mind would do it, that's why I think claiming selfishness is a bit of a non runner.

I absolutely understand where you're coming from and perhaps 'selfish' isn't the right word. I just don't think it's fair to involve someone else in your suicide. It damages the individual concerned.

I think there is a lack of understanding in relation to mental illness full stop. Unfortunately suicide is the ultimate manifestation of that.

Zippie84

Jon Stark wrote: »

Does selfishness really come into it when someone is in such a frame of mind that they'll end it in such a horrific way? No one in the right frame of mind would do it, that's why I think claiming selfishness is a bit of a non runner.

When I look up the definition of selfish (' lacking consideration for other people') I am very inclined to agree.

Biggest issue is that we never know what a person will have felt in their head. If they did consider other people, but the pain was just too intense and over-rode everything else. If they couldn't consider other people.

When people say about it being selfish it's such a big judgement, but to be in such a frame of mind to be willing to end your own life in such a horrific way, something is so badly wrong, and things are pretty much as bad as they get, and I ultimately don't think I can judge that. Yet can see the other side too.

I'm just glad that when I attempted suicide I didn't have it in me to do it through a method such as train / jumping etc. It was too big a step to take.

But putting myself back somewhat in the mindframe I was in at the time, I was so desperate that I think if I did have it in me, I would have done it, I am not sure the affect on other people would have come in to it.

I like to think that doesn't make me a bad person, just someone who was in an extremely bad place mentally.

At the same time, I spent a hell of a lot of time researching suicide methods that may look like an accident, to make it easier for my family, so I did care about people left behind, but there was other times when I just could not see beyond what I was feeling, and I could have so easily used one of the more drastic methods of suicide.

Zippie84

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I absolutely understand where you're coming from and perhaps 'selfish' isn't the right word. I just don't think it's fair to involve someone else in your suicide. It damages the individual concerned.

I think there is a lack of understanding in relation to mental illness full stop. Unfortunately suicide is the ultimate manifestation of that.

Yep I definitely think that suicide isn't quite the right word.

I think there's so many complexities and so many ways of looking at it, and of course it's different for every person. Meaning that there's no absolute rights or wrongs in any of this.

One of my main wishes would be for more people to really try to understand some of the complexities, rather than just looking at it in the very black and white way that it is often viewed.

Obviously that can be very painful for people to do in some instances - but I hope that the more people try to really understand it, the more we can move forward in reducing the number of deaths by suicide and in easing the pain of some who feel that way.

Jon Stark

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I absolutely understand where you're coming from and perhaps 'selfish' isn't the right word. I just don't think it's fair to involve someone else in your suicide. It damages the individual concerned.

I think there is a lack of understanding in relation to mental illness full stop. Unfortunately suicide is the ultimate manifestation of that.

I agree with you, I couldn't imagine involving someone like that. But that's me (reasonably!) talking as someone who has their head together so to speak. I don't think anyone who throws themselves in front a train is thinking reasonably.

You're spot on in regards to mental illness though, I think zippie's post about how his family has reacted to other people ending their lives sums up the lack of understanding in this country.

One eyed Jack

Zippie84 wrote: »

I know that the affect on those left behind is unbelievable, but it's just so far from the black and white that some people in my life seem to think it as being. And I want them to understand it more, but it seems to often be those who haven't felt actively suicidal (as far as I know) that have least understanding, so at the same time I never want them to get it - not if it means they would feel that way.

Jon Stark wrote: »

You're spot on in regards to mental illness though, I think zippie's post about how his family has reacted to other people ending their lives sums up the lack of understanding in this country.

I think it simply shows a different perspective tbh. As zippy quite rightly acknowledged above (the part I bolded), it's impossible to know sometimes what goes through another person's mind. Often times too, people will hide their true feelings and say what they think is the right thing to say, to mask their true feelings.

I don't think it's so much a lack of understanding, so much as the complete inability to view an issue from another person's perspective. Often times people's immediate response is from their own perspective, and only later having thought about it, is there any possibility that they may see beyond their own perspective to be able to understand how another person may have been feeling.

With suicide, it's too late, but if we allow ourselves to be open to other people's perspectives before our own, that may help them in ways we may not even be aware of.

Zippie84

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think it's so much a lack of understanding, so much as the complete inability to view an issue from another person's perspective. Often times people's immediate response is from their own perspective, and only later having thought about it, is there any possibility that they may see beyond their own perspective to be able to understand how another person may have been feeling.

I very much agree that very often with a lot of this stuff, there is an inability to view an issue from another person's perspective.

There is no one single perspective, but to be able to see the other possibilities, the potential reasons, the other ways that it might be, is fundamental to getting a better understanding of this stuff.

But so often we're driven just by one single way of looking at it - our own perspective. And can we really develop a true understanding of a subject, if we're unable to see beyond that own perspective?

I work in suicide prevention training, and it's remarkable quite how strong people often are on their own viewpoints at the beginning, and have very strong beliefs on certain areas - but by the end of it are thinking quite differently.

and obviously my job is not to convince them that their original viewpoints are wrong - which they may not be at all. But to learn about the bigger picture that is so often missed, the different perspectives.

But I often find that those who come on training are already somewhat open minded - the fact that they've come on training shows they're already willing to engage. There's so many we'll never reach through training, who have very strong viewpoints of just their own perspective, and are missing so much more, and unable to see beyond that one way of looking at it.

Sorry for going on btw...

Jon Stark

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think it simply shows a different perspective tbh. As zippy quite rightly acknowledged above (the part I bolded), it's impossible to know sometimes what goes through another person's mind. Often times too, people will hide their true feelings and say what they think is the right thing to say, to mask their true feelings.

I don't think it's so much a lack of understanding, so much as the complete inability to view an issue from another person's perspective. Often times people's immediate response is from their own perspective, and only later having thought about it, is there any possibility that they may see beyond their own perspective to be able to understand how another person may have been feeling.

With suicide, it's too late, but if we allow ourselves to be open to other people's perspectives before our own, that may help them in ways we may not even be aware of.

If I had a family member who attempted suicide, I wouldn't be casually going on about people who have successfully have done it as being selfish, like in zippie's situation. That's what I mean when I say lack of understanding.

Zippie84

Jon Stark wrote: »

If I had a family member who attempted suicide, I wouldn't be casually going on about people who have successfully have done it as being selfish, like in zippie's situation. That's what I mean when I say lack of understanding.

Yep, that's what I thought you meant. I really can't understand it to be honest. Just having never really spoken to me about my suicide attempts, but ultimately by casually saying that when I'm in the room (and more than once too), giving me a strong message of what they think of suicide, and ultimately perhaps me by attempting it.

I doubt I'm the only one who has experienced similar, but I think what people so often miss in this case, is that they would ideally like the person to reach out to them if they are feeling that way again, rather than keep it to themselves /act on it - but by casually saying that it's the most selfish thing ever, they are seriously decreasing the chances of the person reaching out to them if they feel that way in future.

123balltv

On at 23:15 I'll record it don't feel like watching tonight especially after having
a few drinks, I lost a close family member through suicide recently.

Zippie84

123balltv wrote: »

On at 23:15 I'll record it don't feel like watching tonight especially after having
a few drinks, I lost a close family member through suicide recently.

Very sorry to hear of your loss 123balltv. Sounds like one to skip tonight, esp if had a few drinks.

Out of interest, where is it on at 23:15? I've only seen it as 22:45 on BBC England*, and a later time of 23:40 on BBC Scotland.

*although the link in my original post shows it as 23:35, tv listings for BBC (non-Scotland) have it as 23:45... not at all confusing :P

Wacker The Attacker

Is the title a paradox?

Zippie84

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

Is the title a paradox?

No, not as far as I'm aware.

It's life after a suicide for those left behind.

Wacker The Attacker

Zippie84 wrote: »

No, not as far as I'm aware.

It's life after a suicide for those left behind.

Fair enough

colossus-x

quickbeam wrote: »

I don't think suicide per se is selfish, but I think this method is extremely selfish. Whenever I hear of people doing this my heart goes out to the train driver who has to live with it for the rest of his or her life.

It's ludicrous of the highest order to expect someone to be selfless at exactly the same time that they are about to KILL themselves.

While I'm at it why is it people talk about being selfish as if it were the worst possible thing one could ever do. I find this view exceptionally ODD.

One eyed Jack

colossus-x wrote: »

It's ludicrous of the highest order to expect someone to be selfless at exactly the same time that they are about to KILL themselves.

While I'm at it why is it people talk about being selfish as if it were the worst possible thing one could ever do. I find this view exceptionally ODD.

Because in deeming the act of suicide selfish act, they're suggesting that the person was thinking only of themselves.

It's quite ironic moreso than it is odd really.

EDIT: Just on your first point, it's not as ludicrous as it sounds, often times people who choose to take their own life will see what they are doing as a selfless act, the mentality that other people's lives would be better without them, or that in their absence, other people's circumstances will improve.

Dramatik

I had a friend who passed recently from this and I was quite shocked at the reactions of some of my other mates. They weren't exactly using the word "selfish" but some were hinting towards that kind of direction, I expected everyone to be extremely simpathetic over the whole situation but they weren't. Some even seemed to be angry because of what happened, maybe it was just the intial shock that was causing them to react this way or maybe these people simply have never experienced the extreme lows and dispair that these people feel on a day to day basis so they are unable to understand it from the point of view of someone who is suffering.

My mate did actually try to get help on a number of different ocasions but was told that there was nothing wrong with him and was discharged each time. I think this made him feel even more isolated as even the people who were supposed to help him couldn't. Eventually he took matters into his own hands.

One thing I realised about this is people always say the best thing for people who are suffering is to talk to someone but I remember him talking to me about his feelings and I found it very difficult talk to him about it as it's such a delicate conversation to have with someone as you don't want to pry to much into the matter and make them feel more uncomfortable and you're also very aware that you might say the wrong thing and make matters worse. So I think because people react this way the person who is suffering might take this as the person doesn't really care but it's really just because they are trying to be carefull of a really delicate situation.

I do often think back to that day and wonder if I should have asked him more questions and maybe tried to get to the root of the problem. I still don't know the exact reason for it and I've come to the conclusion that I don't need to know either. Trying to think of reasons ect. just starts a cycle of never ending thoughts, instead I just try and think of all the funny things he said/did and all the good nights out ect rather than the reasons.

K4t

Dramatik wrote: »

My mate did actually try to get help on a number of different ocasions but was told that there was nothing wrong with him and was discharged each time. I think this made him feel even more isolated as even the people who were supposed to help him couldn't. Eventually he took matters into his own hands.

This is very important; too often we see cases of suicide which come near out of the blue or in the case of your friend, come from cases of failed medical help. Some of this is due to the stigma surrounding mental health, and also due to the lack of professional help for the increasing demand for mental health treatment. Suicide PREVENTION should be the words on everybody's lips. Mental health problems such as depression need to be considered just like any other medical ailment, for example a broken limb or a bad cough etc., and treated as early as possible, without any fear or embarrassment on the part of the patient.

colossus-x

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because in deeming the act of suicide selfish act, they're suggesting that the person was thinking only of themselves.

It's quite ironic moreso than it is odd really.

EDIT: Just on your first point, it's not as ludicrous as it sounds, often times people who choose to take their own life will see what they are doing as a selfless act, the mentality that other people's lives would be better without them, or that in their absence, other people's circumstances will improve.

I meant selfishness in general not in the specific case in suicide. Of course I understand selfishness in the context of suicide as you explained it but I think you missed my point which is WHO CARES whether it was selfish or indeed selfless. That point is utterly trivial to me , I can't understand how people bring this point up all the time in relation to suicide. I actually find it quite nasty and thoughtless of people to do so. It's like expecting someone to water the plants or empty the bins before they go through with it . Ludicrous, as said earlier.

One eyed Jack

colossus-x wrote: »

I meant selfishness in general not in the specific case in suicide. Of course I understand selfishness in the context of suicide as you explained it but I think you missed my point which is WHO CARES whether it was selfish or indeed selfless. That point is utterly trivial to me , I can't understand how people bring this point up all the time in relation to suicide. I actually find it quite nasty and thoughtless of people to do so. It's like expecting someone to water the plants or empty the bins before they go through with it . Ludicrous, as said earlier.

I think it's important to acknowledge attitudes in society that suggest whether suicide is a selfish or selfless act, because while it may not matter much to you personally, to me it does.

If suicide is regarded as a selfish act, it may not seem to be a compassionate attitude, but if it acts as a deterrent to someone taking their own life, I see that as a good thing.

If it is regarded as a selfless act, this may seem like a compassionate attitude, but the danger is that it could mean that it makes it more acceptable in society for a person to take their own life. I don't think it should ever be seen as acceptable by society for a person to take their own life.

The stigma is a double-edged sword, but I'd sooner err on the side of caution and try and encourage understanding, than encourage blind acceptance in society.