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Meath GAA discussion thread

Hammer Archer

Well Galway has a thread, Mayo has one, even Cavan has one so why not us?

Two one point defeats in a row means we're back into relegation trouble especially if we lose to Derry next week. Having said that, beat Derry next week and promotion is still a (remote) possibility. Joe Sheridan leaving for the States certainly isn't going to help.
Thought the performance yesterday was easily the worst of the league. Our away form is killing us still.

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HighKing33

Meath's footballing traditions barely exist in the senior team. We run the ball incessently. We no longer kick decent ball first time into the forwards and we can't sustain two halves of good football.

I understand that Mick O'Dowd had to go back to basics but we have no game plan beyond running the ball through the centre and looking for easy scores. If Damien Carroll was on song maybe that would be a different story.

Kickouts need to be addressed. Nothing wrong with Paddy's delivery but our set-up is strange and leaves our midfielders outnumbered when they go to field the ball.

The main positive is that our build-up play has improved hugely and also our defence but untill the issues above are dealt with we will remain a very frustrating team to follow.

dixiefly

I couldn't go myself as I've been sick for a few days but result is utterly depressing. Meath were ahead with wind at their backs in the 2nd half. People are saying that the tactics changed or was it that Laois upped their game and the players panicked / reverted to type and became defensive? Either way as said above we don't seem to be able to build on a lead against any sort of semi decent opposition.

I saw a comment on Hogan Stand saying there were only 3 outfield players from senior clubs at the end of the game. Not a complete sign in itself because all great teams have a mix but this, allied to the high number of under 20's & under 21's is possibly leaving us with just not enough players of sufficient experience / physical presence when the going gets tough.

Is this it regarding the panel for the year? Not looking for wholesale changes but hopefully he is still on the lookout for players in form / back from injury that could add a bit of experience and steel to the setup.

CrabRevolution

From what I can see you can never win in the number of senior/intermediate/junior players you play.

Play a team full of players from senior clubs and there'll be loads of calls about needing to play more junior/intermediate players, that the best players aren't necessarily in the best clubs, there's diamonds hidden in the rough of lower tiers etc.

Play 8+ juniors/ intermediates and there will be complaints of "how can they compete at the top level of inter county if they cant even compete at club level in their county", saying the top players play for senior clubs, used to a higher standard etc.

Hammer Archer

And the hurlers round off a miserable weekend for Meath teams by losing to Armagh by 1-17 to 1-15 in Trim. Another season in 2B beckons.

With regards to yesterday, I honestly have no idea what happened in the second half. We did very well in the first half and kept the scoreboard ticking over. The trend seemed to be continuing when we scored 2 in the first 5 minutes of the second half. Then it was like we thought the game was won ala Kildare last season. Biggy's influence on the game disappeared. Bray simply couldn't make balls into him stick. Our midfield, which was very poor up til then, completely disappeared. And we reverted to our habit of letting teams just run straight through us. It was infuriating to watch. Thankfully Eamonn was on to stick that late point.

Midfield is probably our biggest worry at the moment. In contested kickouts, I'd say Laois won well over 80% of them. We seem to have no plan when it comes to winning breaking ball. It seemed to be just bat it down and hope for the best, whereas Laois always had 3 or 4 men in good positions around the jumper to win the breaks. Even more worrying is that it looks as though both Menton and Tormey could be out after pulling up at almost the exact same time. Really need Gillespie and/or Rooney back. If they're not fit, we will have just one midfielder in the entire squad.

Edit: Having said all that, we are somehow still second after today's games. If we can somehow get a win against Roscommon next weekend, promotion is very much a possibility. Though after yesterday, I couldn't see us winning a game against Division 1 opposition.

Meath Centre Forward

Any update on Tormey ... I think he did a cruciate back 4 or 5 years ago but it looked to be a hamstring the way he was hobbling although I could be wrong.

I have to agree with the comments here so far ... remarkable that Meath are still in second place in the table and the 3 teams nearest are the 3 remaining games. That has be to be motivation going into the next 3 weeks.

I actually think Meath played quite well in the first half ... in fact probably the best half of football so far in the League in terms of how we defended and how we moved the ball forward.

The second half was the opposite - after a strong start to the half, we completely went out of it. I know people are blaming different things like tactics, fitness, shooting, management, etc, but i think it's a combination of all and the bottom line is with the players we have, second half performances like that can happen.

A couple of things I would say though, Donnacha Tobin gives the ball away an awful lot. Now in fairness to him towards the end, he was trying to drive Meath forward and he wasn't hiding. The same for Graham Reilly. He did take responsibility but he attempted some very ambitious shots and still wants to go it alone even when players are in better positions. Mark O'Sullivan missed two easy chances as well. There was a game a few years ago - possibly in the Banty era - where he done something very stupid towards the end too. Was it the Kildare qualifier in 2011 in Pairc Tailteann. He is a very classy player as can be seen by the level of comfort he has in possession but he needed to take those chances and he didn't. Adam Flanagan hasn't impressed that much in the last few games either. Positive would be Nicky Judge done well for a player having his first start at the level and Brian Power was better than he was last week. Also thought Mickey Burke done alright for the most part. Munnelly got a few possessions but he couldn't get round Burke bar once maybe.

All in all, very disappointing the way the game ended and lucky to get a draw.

Hammer Archer

Looked like he was holding the back of his leg so presumably it's "just" a hamstring injury.
Think you're thinking of the Donegal game last year MCF. As far as I remember O'Sullivan was one on one with the keeper with a couple of minutes left and just passed it straight to him. Donegal went on to draw level. I'd still like to see him get a few games under his belt as he's been used very sporadically which can't help him get his confidence up.

Judge did very well. I thought. Burke was OK. Still don't think he's a corner back. Disappointed with Tobin so far. He gave away so much possession on Saturday.

iDave

It was a draw but felt like a defeat. Once again we saw a Meath team unable to play for the full 70. Luckily against Westmeath this twilight zone we fall into was in the first half but on Saturday it was during that crucial 40-65 min phase where games are won and lost....or drawn.
Laois are a poor team and posed little attacking threat in the first half, at half time I just thought we needed to keep them at arms length and we could easily see it through. But once again this bizarre comatose phase Meath go through in every game happened and a 7 point lead wasn't enough.
We've played all the relegation candidates now and squeezed through on 5 points, I fear what will happen to us away to promotion candidates Tormey-less. Remember what happened the last time. Come the final game I expect to still be on 5 points with Laois and Westmeath and possibly Kildare looking to leapfrog us and send us down. We are definitely overpriced being second but that's by virtue of being at home to some other very weak teams. All from Leinster too.

HighKing33

Good points above. Tormey and Menton have linked up really well thus far - the Ashbourne connection. Nicky Judge had a good game. O'Sullivan is bright, always trying to be creative. Harnan doesn't influence the game as a half-forward - okay, he's more physical than the Ratoath lads but we desperately need a playmaker on the 40.

Kickouts are a huge problem. We play four midfielders strung out across the centre but time and again they were swallowed up by the opposition and only luck granted us a few breaks. Back to the drawing board here.

Positives going into the Roscommon game - Eamon Wallace looks sharp, I'd be tempted to start himself and O'Sullivan on the 40 and drop Harnan into a more defensive role at midfield.

Hammer Archer

Sunday's game appears to have been pushed back to 3pm.
Best of luck to the U21s tonight. Would be a boost to get back into a Leinster final.

iDave

I see Rooney has been named in tonight's panel.

Hammer Archer

Well that seemed very poor.
Can't remember a worse week results wise for Meath football and hurling teams.

Hammer Archer

Éamonn Wallace in for Tormey is the only change fromSaturday's starting team with Judge retaining his place.

HighKing33

Still think we lack creativity at midfield. Both Keogan and Power are happier defending than attacking. McGill played most of the last game as a half-back and yet offered more threat going forward than of any our backs. Judge is not afraid to pick a pass, deserves to hold his place, hopefully Dalton will get game-time soon.

Menton will run the ball, as will Biggy, likewise Wallace. Mark O'Sullivan is the only man in there who seems to enjoy kicking the football.

Feel we're sorely lacking Dalton, an in-form Carroll, Gillespie aswell has good distribution. Think O'Dowd is playing it safe and looking to pick up points which is fair enough but the running game is seriously pissing me off as a supporter.

Anyway...

Up the Royal!

Hammer Archer

Kev Reilly started. Didn't think he was anywhere close to a return. Officials having a nightmare. Could have been 2 black cards for Roscommon but we get one. Blatant 45 not given by the umpire 2 yards away.

Massively important to get the win. Lose, and we're a point above relegation.

Hammer Archer

Christ we have literally kicked promotion away in the last two games. Can't understand how great club freetakers (Newman and Ward) suddenly turn to sh!t playing for Meath.

What was Paddy thinking for the goal though.

Syferus

Leitrim men rarely do well at the Hyde against Roscommon, Hammer :pac:

Meath kick a lot of poor frees alright, we missed a massive amount in the first half too. Good competitive game. Meath resorted to fouling a little too much in defence whereas we tended to try to displace the ball from the carrier more. Little things win games like that.

Hammer Archer

Syferus wrote: »

Leitrim men rarely do well at the Hyde against Roscommon, Hammer :pac:

Meath kick a lot of poor frees alright, we missed a massive amount in the first half too. Good competitive game. Meath resorted to fouling a little too much in defence whereas we tended to try to displace the ball from the carrier more. Little things win games like that.

As far as I know, we had 10 wides in the game as well as loads dropping short. No offence to you guys, but we lost that game rather than Roscommon winning it. Had Paddy's kickout gone to its intended target, we would have won the game. Also, had it been Stephen rather than David Bray in full forward, again the result would have been very different.
Also, it was an absolute joke of a performance from all the officials. Tobin's black card was never one and if it was, Roscommon should have gotten at least two. Add to that the 45 that everyone in the ground saw except the umpire and ref. And a Roscommon 45 that was taken a good 15 yards infield from where it should have been. And the soft decisions that Roscommon got all day while we couldn't buy a free most times.
Can't use the officials as an excuse though. Our awful freetaking was the main culprit. And what Newman was thinking going for a point from the last two frees instead of dropping it into the square is beyond me.

Honestly having seen all but 2 teams in this division so far, whoever gets promoted is going straight back down next season (though maybe Down will surprise us). It is an atrocious standard of football this year in Division 2.

Congrats to the hurlers who made the Division 2B final again. They'll be monumental underdogs against Kildare in the final though with them having a comfortable 100% record.

Syferus

The referee was bad for both teams. O'Dowd's comments after the match were comical. Take it like a man.

HighKing33

The most crucial game of the year thus far for Meath and management elects to start David Bray, (who hasn't played competitive game of football since the O'Byrne cup group stage) and Kevin Reilly on the wing. The latter may have been a good option on kickouts but playing against the breeze in the first half he was anonymous, players around him did not trust him enough to pass to. A vital 35 minutes in the 2nd half and on comes Shane O'Rourke, again seriously short of football and we play long ball in which we have never done all year.

What was the logic? 2 points here would have been massive but instead O'Dowd prioritises warming lads up for the championship. Great, hazy summer days and all the Meath folk in Croke Park and the Dubs, etc., etc. except we'll get beaten out the gate because we're one of the worst teams in Division 2.

What was the county board doing appointing someone who had no track record in management worth speaking of. I know that sounds harsh but we have to expect some competence at this level because naivety has got us nowhere. We have some very good footballers at present but we're wasting their time with this kind of nonsense.

dixiefly

I wasnt at the game so I can only comment based on the radio and what I read. Seems like the referee had a nightmare only matched by Paddy O' Rourke and Mickey Newman.

mattie Kerrigan on LMFM was also critical of o'Dowd playing three players just back from longterm injuries. It sounds though that MOD doesnt really rate quite a few players in the squad based on the amount of game time some have got. I thought David Bray had played pretty well earlier in the year but he is another player that sounds to have been poor yesterday.

It really is difficult to see where the management is going with this team. Did Shane O'Rourke come back from injury or did he just decide to return himself? I dont even think that promotion would be all that good for the team as it isnt a settled team and division 1 football next season would be very difficult.

We are sorely lacking leaders on the pitch, hopefully Reilly will give some once back and Menton can give leadership also. Regarding the management, the inexperience looks to be a factor. All the talk when MOD took over was of his great backroom team but it just doesnt seem to happen for them and we are losing / drawing games we should be winning.

Hammer Archer

Syferus wrote: »

The referee was bad for both teams. O'Dowd's comments after the match were comical. Take it like a man.

Eh....
http://www.hoganstand.com/meath/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=187518

And I'd argue he was far worse for us. I'd argue that Tobin's foul was not a black card. Graham Reilly was tripped shortly afterwards which is a textbook black card offence and the offending player didn't even get a card of any colour. Almost identical foul to Tobins committed by a Roscommon player in the second half then merited only a yellow. So many times all a Roscommon player had to do was go to ground and he got the free. At one stage, Kevin Reilly got a free against him despite the fact that he was 2 yards behind the Roscommon player going down on the ball. Add to that the countless mistakes by the umpires and linesman meant it was a very poor day for the officials as a whole.

HighKing33

dixiefly wrote: »

I dont even think that promotion would be all that good for the team as it isnt a settled team and division 1 football next season would be very difficult.

We are sorely lacking leaders on the pitch, hopefully Reilly will give some once back and Menton can give leadership also. Regarding the management, the inexperience looks to be a factor. All the talk when MOD took over was of his great backroom team but it just doesnt seem to happen for them and we are losing / drawing games we should be winning.

So what was the goal for year 3 of O'Dowd's term in management? Avoid getting promoted to Division 1, play bad football and hope for a bit of a hooley in the summer?

Syferus

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Eh....
http://www.hoganstand.com/meath/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=187518

And I'd argue he was far worse for us. I'd argue that Tobin's foul was not a black card. Graham Reilly was tripped shortly afterwards which is a textbook black card offence and the offending player didn't even get a card of any colour. Almost identical foul to Tobins committed by a Roscommon player in the second half then merited only a yellow. So many times all a Roscommon player had to do was go to ground and he got the free. At one stage, Kevin Reilly got a free against him despite the fact that he was 2 yards behind the Roscommon player going down on the ball. Add to that the countless mistakes by the umpires and linesman meant it was a very poor day for the officials as a whole.

Evans doing it doesn't make it any less egregious. Meath lost because they kicked a ball straight our FF inside their defence, because they were too easily dispossessed and because they couldn't kick frees. Everything else is nothing but the generic noise you hear after any match. Far from the worst refereeing performance I've seen. Listening to O'Dowd you'd swear there was a conspiracy against Meath.

homeofhurling

yes O'Dowd seems to like to blame anyone or everything on meaths defeats than on himself, i seem to remember him saying that one of Dublins goals in last years final was a foul, is he for real there was 26 points in that game.

i think most in meath will agree the talent is not there, that was there in the 80's and 90's, just on a note when were meath last in division 1.

dixiefly

HighKing33 wrote: »

So what was the goal for year 3 of O'Dowd's term in management? Avoid getting promoted to Division 1, play bad football and hope for a bit of a hooley in the summer?

I dont know his goal for the year but, for me and I have said it before that the goal should be promotion to Division 1. All I was saying there is that the way they are playing that they may be as well off in div 2 next year the way things have worked out as they are just not good enough for division 1 at the moment. Hopefully less injuries and allow the management (be it MOD or whoever) to identify and build on a settled team.

Thats all I was saying.

Hammer Archer

Syferus wrote: »

Evans doing it doesn't make it any less egregious. Meath lost because they kicked a ball straight our FF inside their defence, because they were too easily dispossessed and because they couldn't kick frees. Everything else is nothing but the generic noise you hear after any match. Far from the worst refereeing performance I've seen. Listening to O'Dowd you'd swear there was a conspiracy against Meath.

If a referee makes an absolute mess of a performance like he did yesterday, I think a manager has every right to question it. I don't mind when a referee is consistently bad for both sides but that was not the case yesterday.
I remember the game in 2013 and Evans was 100% right to come out afterwards about the referee. The incident he talked about was clear to every person in the ground that day and he had every right to bring it up after that game. Funnily enough, the other goal that day was also of the fluke kind like yesterday with Kevin Reilly's goal from the halfway line.

homeofhurling wrote: »

yes O'Dowd seems to like to blame anyone or everything on meaths defeats than on himself, i seem to remember him saying that one of Dublins goals in last years final was a foul, is he for real there was 26 points in that game.

i think most in meath will agree the talent is not there, that was there in the 80's and 90's, just on a note when were meath last in division 1.

He didn't make any such comment after the Dublin game. He has to take a good bit of responsibility for previous losses, but to be honest he was let down by a good few players yesterday so it was somewhat out of his control.

Meath haven't been in Division 1 since the league went back to 4 divisions in 2008. They were in Division 1B back in 2006 as far as I remember.

Hammer Archer

dixiefly wrote: »

I wasnt at the game so I can only comment based on the radio and what I read. Seems like the referee had a nightmare only matched by Paddy O' Rourke and Mickey Newman.

mattie Kerrigan on LMFM was also critical of o'Dowd playing three players just back from longterm injuries. It sounds though that MOD doesnt really rate quite a few players in the squad based on the amount of game time some have got. I thought David Bray had played pretty well earlier in the year but he is another player that sounds to have been poor yesterday.

It really is difficult to see where the management is going with this team. Did Shane O'Rourke come back from injury or did he just decide to return himself? I dont even think that promotion would be all that good for the team as it isnt a settled team and division 1 football next season would be very difficult.

We are sorely lacking leaders on the pitch, hopefully Reilly will give some once back and Menton can give leadership also. Regarding the management, the inexperience looks to be a factor. All the talk when MOD took over was of his great backroom team but it just doesnt seem to happen for them and we are losing / drawing games we should be winning.

Was very surprised that Kevin Reilly played. Honestly had no idea that he was anywhere close to playing. Having said that, he actually did OK I thought. Shane O'Rourke did OK too when he came on. He's been playing with Simonstown for a while so he's not just back from injury. Gillespie looked good when he came on. Think he should have come on earlier as Menton was obviously still struggling with last week's injury. David Bray's days in a Meath jersey are numbered I fear. He simply isn't the same player as before his injury nightmare. Almost every ball that was played into him either ricocheted off him or went through his hands. We sorely missed Stephen in the full forward line.

Meath Centre Forward

I'm wary of saying the wrong thing here as I was not at yesterday's game however I have been at the other 4.

My tuppence worth on O'Dowd.
1. I agree it was a peculiar decision to start Reilly and get O'Rourke into the action early enough too. Clearly the idea was to generate an extra bit of momentum with the returning stars. The fact Meath lost, such a big decision is obviously being viewed negatively. Had we won, nobody would give it a second thought. We'd probably praise the decision. But we did lose and the decision must be viewed in that context.
2. My only other criticism of O'Dowd is this ridiculous naming of dummy teams. Jim Gavin and Conor Counihan are famed for this rubbish. The Meath team that's named never actually starts. It's pointless even taking it seriously anymore.

Other than that, O'Dowd is doing fine as far as I'm concerned. I'm not surprised people are getting on his back though. Generally since Boylan left, Meath supporters have been optimistic and generous towards a new manager in his first year but if there isn't immediate success in year two, the supporters will complain. O'Dowd has done well to reach year three but the consequence of this is he has to get the team into Division One or win a Leinster.

The expectation levels are huge. Trying to look at it objectively - we are third in Division Two (eleventh in the county essentially) consistent with the stage we have exited the last three championships and would I say we are better? On a good day we could be competitive in Division One or in a Quarter Final but we could not sustain that level of performance over a period of games - absolutely no way. We are where we are and that's about as good as most managers would have us in my opinion. A manager of Jim McGuinness / Eamonn Fitzmaurice standard would probably eek out a bit more but managers like that rare and if there are any in Meath currently, they aren't obvious.

Meath Centre Forward

Micko has done a lot of good things. If you look back to the Banty days what were the common complaints? Team lacking in strength, explosiveness, power, etc. This has been addressed and is continually improving. The likes of Keoghan, Menton, Harnan, Tobin, Bray and Newman are very athletic. Even young players like McGill, Flanagan and Rooney have had no problem in adapting to the speed of the game or the strength/size of opposition. Another one was the need to try younger players. Micko has been very proactive in searching the county for talent and has used - at a guess - around 80 players - between O'Byrne Cup, League and Championship in his two and a half years. Problem is the new talent is not better than what was previously there.

Also disagree that there's a lack of tactics. It's a common argument to throw at a team when they're losing. There's been an improvement in our defending along with an increased effort in dealing with counter-attacks. There's obvious kick-out tactics and they have been drilled in working the ball out of defence too.

That would be my take on it. Part of the problem is that despite all the hard work Meath have put in under Micko, the same hard work has been going on in counties like Cavan, Galway & Roscommon - counties around our level currently but who have had much more success at u21 level. Remember Micko is picking largely from a group of players who between them won one u21 match between 2008 and 2013.

Problems this year would be the mistake count has gone up. Some players give up possession very cheaply and some use it very naively. Whether the pace of the game is contributing to this, who knows. We have also regressed attacking-wise since last year as far as I can tell. Maybe this is due to the lost of form of Mickey Newman and Damian Carroll, inconsistent free-taking, injuries to players like Bryan McMahon & Andrew Tormey.

That's my assessment of things. I could be wrong. I would not be getting my expectations up but at the same time, I would recognise that we are capable of beating Down and Cavan. Should that happen, I imagine the narrative around O'Dowd and Meath will probably change again until we disappoint in Leinster again.

HighKing33

I've been to most of the games and the football Meath play under Mick O'Dowd is just bad. We have no game plan beyond running the ball down the centre presumably with a view towards winning scorable frees. Yesterday (admittedly playing against an unpredictable breeze), none of our forwards bar Graham Reilly had the balls to shoot for the posts. Remember, this is year 3 of O'Dowd's term. I wouldn't pay to watch this stuff at club level.

He has set his stall about building a Meath team for the future but against Roscommon we saw Kevin Reilly wasted at midfield in a team that was sorely lacking creativity. If the aim was to avoid promotion to Division 1 then it may be a qualified success.

We have good players, some of the best young defenders in the country. They were not successful at underage level but then most of the Kerry team that won last year's All-Ireland had experienced successive hammerings at the hands of Cork and never even threatened a Munster title.