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Simulation

chicorytip

I was struck by the notion-whilst witnessing the antics of Di Maria last night-of a blindingly obvious solution to the problem of "diving".
Why not make this an instant red card offence?
Sure, officials will continue to err in
deciding what exactly constitutes a genuine foul but at least it would create a significant deterrent of incurring a three match ban, which would be an approriate punishment, in my opinion.

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[Deleted User]

chicorytip wrote: »

I was struck by the notion-whilst witnessing the antics of Di Maria last night-of a blindingly obvious solution to the problem of "diving".
Why not make this an instant red card offence?
Sure, officials will continue to err in
deciding what exactly constitutes a genuine foul but at least it would create a significant deterrent of incurring a three match ban, which would be an approriate punishment, in my opinion.

So you think a dive is as bad an offence as violent conduct? I wouldn't agree, it's not that big a deal really.

G1032

chicorytip wrote: »

I was struck by the notion-whilst witnessing the antics of Di Maria last night-of a blindingly obvious solution to the problem of "diving".
Why not make this an instant red card offence?
Sure, officials will continue to err in
deciding what exactly constitutes a genuine foul but at least it would create a significant deterrent of incurring a three match ban, which would be an approriate punishment, in my opinion.

3 match ban with straight red is only for violent conduct. Diving isn't violent conduct.

But an after match video panel review board should be retrospectively banning players for diving regardless of what the ref did or didn't see

recylingbin

A few years ago in Italy they introduced retrospective punishment for diving. It sorted the whole thing out and no one has dived there since.

rob316

There should be retrospective banning by the fa. 3 games for a blatant dive.

Clubs should also be handing out 1 week wage fines too.

I'm not talking about going down easy its dives like last night that are blighting the game. Disgraceful antics.

[Deleted User]

rob316 wrote: »

There should be retrospective banning by the fa. 3 games for a blatant dive.

Clubs should also be handing out 1 week wage fines too.

I'm not talking about going down easy its dives like last night that are blighting the game. Disgraceful antics.

Not really to be honest. Diving isn't a big deal at all. The vast majority are seen and the embarrassment is enough of a deterrent. More of a British and Irish thing to vilify a player for a bit of gamesmanship more than a "hard man" who makes a living by kicking lumps out of players for 90 minutes.

kippy

The problem is you'll have idiots out there who don't understand that a fall to the ground isn't always a "dive" or a "foul".

eagle eye

Liam O wrote: »

Not really to be honest. Diving isn't a big deal at all. The vast majority are seen and the embarrassment is enough of a deterrent. More of a British and Irish thing to vilify a player for a bit of gamesmanship more than a "hard man" who makes a living by kicking lumps out of players for 90 minutes.

Diving is becoming a very serious issue. I don't agree that retrospective banning is the way to go either. If somebody dives in the box during a game they are looking to get a penalty for their team. If they get it then a team could be robbed of crucial points which could cost them a title, ecl spot or from surviving relegation.

I think there should be a straight red for a dive in the box and yellow for outside the box.

Kicking lumps out of people is not accepted anymore in the game and there is punishment handed out for it by referees during game and if they miss it the player can get banned retrospectively.

artanevilla

It's a fundamental problem in the game at the top level, and that obviously filters down through the leagues and you'll even have kids doing it now.

It might be hard for the ref to punish on the field and any association to punish after, but I think the buck should stop with the managers of the team to stamp it out.

Players should be fined by their clubs for diving and dropped for persistent offences. I know there's a lot at stake for clubs getting results, and people might argue that the players are just doing everything they can for the win, but I personally HATE cheating, and don't enjoy if my team won as a result of a dive or anything like.

It cheapens the sport, and any sport that has cheating as a fundamental part of it, which diving has become nearly, is not really a sport at all. In a sport you should be able to beat your opponent by talent, tactics or even sheer luck sometimes, but never by cheating.

ArmaniJeanss

chicorytip wrote: »

I was struck by the notion-whilst witnessing the antics of Di Maria last night-of a blindingly obvious solution to the problem of "diving".
Why not make this an instant red card offence?
Sure, officials will continue to err in
deciding what exactly constitutes a genuine foul but at least it would create a significant deterrent of incurring a three match ban, which would be an approriate punishment, in my opinion.

Did you not start an identical thread a few months ago, so its hardly something you were just struck by last night?

As in your last thread I'd suggest that its not really regarded as that big an issue worldwide (many countries seem to regard it as an almost valid tactic), and its not the job of FIFA to pander to the sensibilities of outraged fans in UK and Ire when they decide what are automatic red card offences.

theoneeyedman

It is blatant cheating, is 'bringing the game into disrepute' imo and should be punished. It's laughable to suggest though that clubs should fine/suspend players, that'd never happen. It's clear that players are coached and practice creating contact with defenders, and attracting penalties.
As an aside, how come di Maria only received a yellow for grabbing the ref last night? I know there was little or no violence involved, but I always thought any manhandling of a referee was a big no-no. Should it not be an automatic red card?

kingtiger

football could learn a thing or two from Rugby, I would love to see a Sin bin being introduced

dive \ bitch at the ref \ fein injury \ etc = 10 mins in the Bin

brevity

Start with respecting the ref, the simulation will stop imo

The enforcement of the rule; yellow a card for aggression towards the referee e.g. surrounding him, mouthing off to him etc. I don't like comparing sports but if it was enforced like Rugby i think a great degree of respect would come into the game.

The players dive because they know they can con the ref and storm around him putting him under pressure.

Ferris_Bueller

Watching the United v Arsenal game last night was the first time it really hit me that diving is ruining the game, something really does need to be done. 15 years ago if you were watching the fixture last night you would have a real physical battle on the pitch with the likes of Keane and Vieira, last nights match was ridiculous, it has come to the point where it is ruining the flow of games because people are going down without any contact (although I did think last nights ref was very good).

A straight red card would probably be too hard to implement, what constitutes a dive? If a referee got a big call like that wrong in an important game and sent a player off when there actually was a foul there would be war. Retrospective banning seems like the best idea as if players were getting banned for 2 or 3 games you would imagine even their own managers would discourage it. Yet again though, for the panel involved in dishing out the bans you would need to define a dive, obviously when a player is not touched and goes down it is a dive, but the likes of Di Maria and Januzaj could argue there was a hand on their back or whatever.. Will be tough to define but something really needs to be done.

ShoulderChip

theoneeyedman wrote: »

It is blatant cheating, is 'bringing the game into disrepute' imo and should be punished. It's laughable to suggest though that clubs should fine/suspend players, that'd never happen. It's clear that players are coached and practice creating contact with defenders, and attracting penalties.
As an aside, how come di Maria only received a yellow for grabbing the ref last night? I know there was little or no violence involved, but I always thought any manhandling of a referee was a big no-no. Should it not be an automatic red card?

So weird I literally heard a commentator use that phrase "bringing the game into disrepute" recently, do we have a celebrity in our midst? I have never heard it used in casual conversation

kippy

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Watching the United v Arsenal game last night was the first time it really hit me that diving is ruining the game, something really does need to be done. 15 years ago if you were watching the fixture last night you would have a real physical battle on the pitch with the likes of Keane and Vieira, last nights match was ridiculous, it has come to the point where it is ruining the flow of games because people are going down without any contact (although I did think last nights ref was very good).

A straight red card would probably be too hard to implement, what constitutes a dive? If a referee got a big call like that wrong in an important game and sent a player off when there actually was a foul there would be war. Retrospective banning seems like the best idea as if players were getting banned for 2 or 3 games you would imagine even their own managers would discourage it. Yet again though, for the panel involved in dishing out the bans you would need to define a dive, obviously when a player is not touched and goes down it is a dive, but the likes of Di Maria and Januzaj could argue there was a hand on their back or whatever.. Will be tough to define but something really needs to be done.

This is what I mentioned above.
When a player goes to ground it doesn't have to be a dive or a foul.
It's a contact sport - there are going to be times when players go to ground and its neither a dive nor a foul but a good tackle, accidental contact or tangle etc etc

If you want to do something, as mentioned above, generate more respect for the referee and his decisions by coming down hard on clubs and players that give stick to the ref and attempt to force him into making decisions. Then give the ref some assistance in making the big decisions. Something basic like a TV replay...... United and players like Neville in their time and now Rooney, are particularily bad at this but other clubs like Chelsea and Terry and others have all been guilty of it in the past.
Then look at retrospective punishments for players who are found to have dived in a match review.

Ordinary man

The funny thing about diving is it's only a big issue when it's a rivals teams player that does it. And it's been around for a long time, pires, gerrard,ginola and others made their careers by falling at the right times

theoneeyedman

Ordinary man wrote: »

The funny thing about diving is it's only a big issue when it's a rivals teams player that does it. And it's been around for a long time, pires, gerrard,ginola and others made their careers by falling at the right times

Platini won a European tourney for France in which he was 'fouled' a lot back in the day.....

kippy

Ordinary man wrote: »

The funny thing about diving is it's only a big issue when it's a rivals teams player that does it. And it's been around for a long time, pires, gerrard,ginola and others made their careers by falling at the right times

It's a big issue any time as far as I am concerned.
I think at this stage it's becoming acceptable at all levels of soccer and thats' a major problem

recylingbin

kingtiger wrote: »

football could learn a thing or two from Rugby, I would love to see a Sin bin being introduced

dive \ bitch at the ref \ fein injury \ etc = 10 mins in the Bin

No, it really couldn't.
Rugby is a dull, boring game.

[Deleted User]

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Watching the United v Arsenal game last night was the first time it really hit me that diving is ruining the game, something really does need to be done. 15 years ago if you were watching the fixture last night you would have a real physical battle on the pitch with the likes of Keane and Vieira, last nights match was ridiculous, it has come to the point where it is ruining the flow of games because people are going down without any contact (although I did think last nights ref was very good).

Roy Keane: "I still think Overmars dived for that". From a game 16 years ago.

It's hardly a new phenomenon. Most places have moved on and accepted that it's part of the game, some even see it as a skill. A yellow for a dive outside the box and red for one inside the box as EE mentioned above is a decent idea actually but you can't go more harsh than that imo.

Ferris_Bueller

kippy wrote: »

This is what I mentioned above.
When a player goes to ground it doesn't have to be a dive or a foul.
It's a contact sport - there are going to be times when players go to ground and its neither a dive nor a foul but a good tackle, accidental contact or tangle etc etc

If you want to do something, as mentioned above, generate more respect for the referee and his decisions by coming down hard on clubs and players that give stick to the ref and attempt to force him into making decisions. Then give the ref some assistance in making the big decisions. Something basic like a TV replay...... United and players like Neville in their time and now Rooney, are particularily bad at this but other clubs like Chelsea and Terry and others have all been guilty of it in the past.
Then look at retrospective punishments for players who are found to have dived in a match review.

Yeah I agree, that's why it's a difficult one because it's not as black and white as saying it's either a foul or a dive. There definitely should be more respect for referees also, but I would think that is a seperate issue.

Liam O wrote: »

Roy Keane: "I still think Overmars dived for that". From a game 16 years ago.

It's hardly a new phenomenon. Most places have moved on and accepted that it's part of the game, some even see it as a skill. A yellow for a dive outside the box and red for one inside the box as EE mentioned above is a decent idea actually but you can't go more harsh than that imo.

Not a new phenomenon but I would definitely say it's the worst it's ever been in this part of the world at least. I was formerly of the opinion that it could be seen as a skill in itself but it has gotten to the point where it is ruining games IMO, last nights being the perfect example. I think the majority of people would agree that it is not a good thing.

kippy

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Yeah I agree, that's why it's a difficult one because it's not as black and white as saying it's either a foul or a dive. There definitely should be more respect for referees also, but I would think that is a seperate issue.

If you ACTUALLY respect someone, you're less likely to try make an idiot out of them.

It's probably not in the "sports" best interest to do away with all the major talking points in the game so I'd say it will be a long time before there are further steps brought in to deal with diving or indeed to start using video evidence etc.

rob316

Liam O wrote: »

Not really to be honest. Diving isn't a big deal at all. The vast majority are seen and the embarrassment is enough of a deterrent. More of a British and Irish thing to vilify a player for a bit of gamesmanship more than a "hard man" who makes a living by kicking lumps out of players for 90 minutes.

What has it got do with been a hardman?

I'm talking about a player going 2 yards past there man and just falling to the ground. Its ****ing pathetic.

Deterrent? How comes its the same culprits time and time again so?

Auto red card would be harsh as there is an element of human error and it could really hurt the outcome of games if the decision was wrong.

Diving is a huge problem and I see it a lot in recent years creeping into underage football.

Retrospective bans is the way to go.

[Deleted User]

Yeah retrospective bans would help.

Would it sort it completely? I don't think so due to players who are barely touched and go down very easily. Some aren't as clear cut as the other night particularly the Januzaj one

MythicalMadMan

What about retrospective bans for handballs unseen by the ref, those swalliwag handballers have been bringing this fine game into disrepute, since the good old days when Vinnie Jones was playing this phyiscal mans game and ripping off peoples bollocks. It brings a tear to my eye now wondering what Vinnie would think about all these foriegners diving all over the place and faking injuries. Its even started to infect our own lads now.
Poor boys had no chance all they wanted to do wass kick the ****e outta the foreign lads to show them they were men but they just kept diving before they even had a chance.
O the humanity.

I also reckon shorts should be lengthed so u can see no knees.

Retrospective bans for offsides.
Dont forget the retrospective ban for jersey pulling 10 games in ur own box, 6 in ur own half an 2 if you own up to the ref before the final whistle.

[Deleted User]

chicorytip wrote: »

I was struck by the notion-whilst witnessing the antics of Di Maria last night-of a blindingly obvious solution to the problem of "diving".
Why not make this an instant red card offence?
Sure, officials will continue to err in
deciding what exactly constitutes a genuine foul but at least it would create a significant deterrent of incurring a three match ban, which would be an approriate punishment, in my opinion.

Not feasable unless the referee is supported by video technology. Diving in football can be very difficult for a referee to judge. Then to give somebody a red card within any form of supporting evidance just won't work.

Another point on this;
Somebody mentioned retrospective banning. I believe this wouldn't work either. For arguments sake a player dives and is awarded a penalty, the team score from that penalty and it effects the outcome of that game. The decision has already been made during the match. Then after match its deemed that the player has dived and is retrospectively given a red card. What good is that to the opposing manger and of course the player who has made the tackle, was the player who made the challenge sent off also for example? This would also bring dispute to all other decisions after each match. You would end opening up a constant barrage of decisions being disputed and would only end up adding more confusion.

On respect it needs to start from the top down. If managers have **** all respect for referees then why would an overpaid professional footballer give two ****s either. Add to that the referee has nothing but his own judgement during a match only for goal line tech (which took long enough to implement) there's always the potential for argument and surounding / harassment of the referee. Video technology is in only way to gain that respect as it gives no leverage for players to argue.

[Deleted User]

brevity wrote: »

Start with respecting the ref, the simulation will stop imo

The enforcement of the rule; yellow a card for aggression towards the referee e.g. surrounding him, mouthing off to him etc. I don't like comparing sports but if it was enforced like Rugby i think a great degree of respect would come into the game.

The players dive because they know they can con the ref and storm around him putting him under pressure.

This also for sure

CSF

I'm just surprised the thread managed to go 3 pages with only one mention of rugby.

CSF

Also, there are way bigger things going without justice in football.

Priority number 1 being making sure the likes of Ashley Barnes are punished properly, not allowed away with it because an incompetent ref says he saw the incident.

[Deleted User]

CSF wrote: »

I'm just surprised the thread managed to go 3 pages with only one mention of rugby.

It's always a legit comparison though.

The refs have the respect from the players.
The refs have the technology to support there decisions.
Rugby players don't feign injury / simulate.

Cian Healy took at head to the face against France, got back up straight away.
Soccer player has a hand brush of his chin and he's rolling around like he's shot.