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DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

rlogue

WestBriton informs me that he obtained good DAB reception on a portable DAB radio in the foothills of the Dublin mountains.

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watty

No, the point of DAB+ isn't more quality at all. The ONLY reason anyone deploys DAB+ is to reduce cost by having bit rate. At higher bit rates (192 and especially 256) there is no advantage to DAB+. DAB+ really exists so as to have 64K stereo. You'll get a little extra quality having 160K DAB+ instead of 160K DAB. But much better quality with 192 and really to have a system as good or better than decent FM you need 256K. That's WHY there is a 256K mode!

DVB-T2 makes more sense than DAB or DAB+

SimonMaher

Just to give my two cents on this from a broadcasters perspective.....

Back in the Phantom days, we were involved in the "commercial" multiplex tests on DAB in Dublin. At the time (2007 to November 2008!), some electrical retailers were doing a decent push on DAB receivers and we were getting quite a decent response back, particularly after people got their DABs for Christmas!

After the trial finished, there was an expectation that a commercial MUX would be up and running quite quickly in 2009 but for various reasons that didn't happen and DAB drifted out of peoples consciousness again. The reasons included the economic conditions of the time, the opposition of some (but not all!) commercial broadcasters to DAB and of course, the unwillingness of the BAI to progress DAB as a platform.

Since then, we have had the RTE Mux, the Total DAB mux in the South East (which Phantom was also part of) and the Db Mux in Dublin and Cork. All still operate under trial licences from DCMNR and we still don't have a firm view from the BAI or a permanent mux/muxes.

As broadcasters, we tend to focus a lot on the technology (whether that be DAB, Dab +, DRM, DTT or whatever) but in my experience of the trials (and from discussions with listeners in the UK), listeners really don't care about the technology. They only care about content. Rightly so I might add. For your average listener, 48k Stereo DAB+ is perfectly adequate - lets be honest, the majority of listeners barely even notice if you're broadcasting in Stereo!

The success or otherwise of Digital Radio in Ireland depends on the BAI, the IBI/RTE and some decent content. It's not an "instead of", it's an "in addition to" format. My two cents

Simon
8Radio.com

Capt'n Midnight

natashaob6 wrote: »

The reason RTE won't roll out DAB is that they want the commercial radio sector to come on board but they say it's too expensive. I can't understand why RTE don't go ahead like you said and roll out DAB across the main transmitters and maybe add a couple of extra stations to encourage take up.

Given the way that TV3 aren't stumping up for HD carriage on Saorview it's probably a bit of a sore point getting RTE to fund a network on a "build it and they will come". UTV aren't on HD on saorview either and more to the point they own a few local stations here.
Saorsat means there's now almost total coverage , except of course for TV3 who didn't want to shell out on transmission costs. Another example of "build it and they will come" not working out. UTV are already free to air on Astra so no need for them to go on Saorsat.

Local stations are geographically limited by their license. And more than a few had their chances of chancing more power / better transmitter site taken down a peg. Local stations won't be able to transmit further because they aren't allowed. The clue is in the word 'local'

Saorview mean way better picture quality for most people and there's been better coverage too. So it's down to stations that are carried nationally.

DAB is still a solution looking for a problem. 3G means there aren't that many places where DAB offers better coverage than internet radio.

mackersdublin

http://www.a516digital.com/2015/01/rte-plans-to-go-live-across-uk-on-dab.html

Sam Russell

Mentioned in the article is an 80% coverage. How is that 80% coverage defined? Is it roof height aerial or would it be 80% in a car installed DAB radio?

[Deleted User]

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mentioned in the article is an 80% coverage. How is that 80% coverage defined? Is it roof height aerial or would it be 80% in a car installed DAB radio?

Brilliant, so the UK will have a better coverage of the RTE stations on DAB than we do. I am in Sligo and still no digital radio available via DAB.

lottpaul

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mentioned in the article is an 80% coverage. How is that 80% coverage defined? Is it roof height aerial or would it be 80% in a car installed DAB radio?

Figures like that can be very misleading. 80% UK coverage can be obtained easily by having transmitters within range of about 10 of their biggest cities - London, Birmingham, Glasgow etc. It would still leave approx 12 million people in areas like Scotland, Wales and rural England with no coverage at all.

reboot

SimonMaher wrote: »

Just to give my two cents on this from a broadcasters perspective.....

Back in the Phantom days, we were involved in the "commercial" multiplex tests on DAB in Dublin. At the time (2007 to November 2008!), some electrical retailers were doing a decent push on DAB receivers and we were getting quite a decent response back, particularly after people got their DABs for Christmas!

After the trial finished, there was an expectation that a commercial MUX would be up and running quite quickly in 2009 but for various reasons that didn't happen and DAB drifted out of peoples consciousness again. The reasons included the economic conditions of the time, the opposition of some (but not all!) commercial broadcasters to DAB and of course, the unwillingness of the BAI to progress DAB as a platform.

Since then, we have had the RTE Mux, the Total DAB mux in the South East (which Phantom was also part of) and the Db Mux in Dublin and Cork. All still operate under trial licences from DCMNR and we still don't have a firm view from the BAI or a permanent mux/muxes.

As broadcasters, we tend to focus a lot on the technology (whether that be DAB, Dab +, DRM, DTT or whatever) but in my experience of the trials (and from discussions with listeners in the UK), listeners really don't care about the technology. They only care about content. Rightly so I might add. For your average listener, 48k Stereo DAB+ is perfectly adequate - lets be honest, the majority of listeners barely even notice if you're broadcasting in Stereo!

The success or otherwise of Digital Radio in Ireland depends on the BAI, the IBI/RTE and some decent content. It's not an "instead of", it's an "in addition to" format. My two cents

Simon
8Radio.com

I recently tried to buy a Dab radio in Newcastle Co.Down for a friend . The store is quite large and part of a large group around the North. The assistant told me the reason they don't stock Dab radios is that there are no transmitters in the Area. I took him to the shop window and pointed to the transmitter at the rear of main street,which has been transmitting Dab light for 2 years.I think if you went to that store today,many months on,you would hear the same story from him? Whose fault is this, and what will be done about it?

Mr. Rabbit

reboot wrote: »

I recently tried to buy a Dab radio in Newcastle Co.Down for a friend . The store is quite large and part of a large group around the North. The assistant told me the reason they don't stock Dab radios is that there are no transmitters in the Area. I took him to the shop window and pointed to the transmitter at the rear of main street,which has been transmitting Dab light for 2 years.I think if you went to that store today,many months on,you would hear the same story from him? Whose fault is this, and what will be done about it?

Newcastle is one area mentioned in the local DAB roll out in 2015 and 2016. Not sure if Digital One from Divis gets into the town ?

Absolute Radio 90's, Absolute Classic Rock, and Kisstory were added to the NI local mux in December/start of January.

Downtown Radio are also about to launch a country station, Downtown Radio Country, fairy soon, apparently.

reboot

Mickie Mike wrote: »

I have been following DAB reports for a few years now and really its not looking great. Tests and trials have been going on since 2006. What does it say about it, basically this platform is a heap of ****, that's my understanding in the short and long run, they don't know what there doing.
AM broadcast will definitely go in a few years, long wave 252 was to stop on the 19th Jan. I hope FM radio will stay with us for many years until a credible format is put in place.
My best bet is Digital Radio Mondiale Plus (DRM+) VHF Band 1 for Ireland. This technology must not be over looked as it is much cheaper and greener than DAB and will sort this mess out for once.
What do you think guys?[/QUOT
Agreed, New technology, same old people. I can quote postcodes if "They" took even a vague interest, in giving us what we pay for.
At a location in Annalong there if no Fm reception of BBC services,No DVB T2, tiny 200 watt Tx from IOM, with no reception of HD. At Castlewellan there is Broadband speed UP To 1Mbit, and 2G mobile service Outside the property. Don't start me on Electric Vehicle charge points that have never worked in the area since they were installed two years ago, (Sorry off thread but plenty on its own thread on Boards)

reboot

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Newcastle is one area mentioned in the local DAB roll out in 2015 and 2016. Not sure if Digital One from Divis gets into the town ?

Absolute Radio 90's, Absolute Classic Rock, and Kisstory were added to the NI local mux in December/start of January.

Downtown Radio are also about to launch a country station, Downtown Radio Country, fairy soon, apparently.

Thanks for that, no Digital one and no Divis. Not even Radio Ulster on the Dab light,but the Asian service romps in.

Mr. Rabbit

At a location in Annalong there if no Fm reception of BBC services

Does the BBC Kilkeel FM transmitter not get well into the town along with Q radio on 101.2 ?

Last time I was down there I could receive all the local BBC FM radio services along with numerous stations from Dublin and along the east coast.

Granted, for some odd reason Kilkeel hasn't been included in the BBC roll out of DAB, nor the local mux expansion. Newry and Rostrevor have been left out as well, a decision which I find puzzling.

Does the Dublin RTE DAB mux not reach as far as Annalong ? Signals from Dublin on FM are very strong indeed in the town.

Sam Russell

Is DAB from Wales or NI receivable in Dublin?

I would presume a roof high directional yagi or log-periodic.

reboot

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Does the BBC Kilkeel FM transmitter not get well into the town along with Q radio on 101.2 ?

Last time I was down there I could receive all the local BBC FM radio services along with numerous stations from Dublin and along the east coast.

Granted, for some odd reason Kilkeel hasn't been included in the BBC roll out of DAB, nor the local mux expansion. Newry and Rostrevor have been left out as well, a decision which I find puzzling.

Does the Dublin RTE DAB mux not reach as far as Annalong ? Signals from Dublin on FM are very strong indeed in the town.

RTE DAB ,will appear sometimes,(RTE GOLD ) great little station, I don't want to start again with Aerials ,amps and power supplies,as I don't live in my friends house,and as you know the lack of F plug aerial I/P on most portables is an ongoing annoyance.

watty

reboot wrote: »

RTE DAB ,will appear sometimes,(RTE GOLD ) great little station, .

Waste of Licence payers money.
Easily duplicated on MP3 player it's rubbish quality, coverage and technology. You can't even buy a DAB radio outside of a car with decent audio easily.

ITV2

I have a Bush Dab radio from Argos, I get pretty good coverage of RTE Gold in a double decker bus from Drumcondra nearly all the way to Enniskerry (lose signal via the Scalp) beats having to listening to endless adverts and news on FM stations.

reboot

watty wrote: »

Waste of Licence payers money.
Easily duplicated on MP3 player it's rubbish quality, coverage and technology. You can't even buy a DAB radio outside of a car with decent audio easily.

Agreed,But, relating to RTE Gold music quality,Better to light a candle, than curse the darkness?
When this music was first heard,it was probably on a 45 rpm single. Maybe played on a Dansette with a single valve triode / pentode. On a PPM it would have peaked 6 permanently to get the max level from the disc.
The Audio bandwith of BBC radio one incoming to Belfast was 5 khrz and radio 3 transmission from an OB required split band carrier.
With CD quality still 11 times that of mp3, the public don't seem to care, and we may still be talking about the lack of audio quality when we can't here much above 4k as we get older?
Still I have to agree with you on your main point. Thanks.

Prisoner6409

ITV2 wrote: »

I have a Bush Dab radio from Argos, I get pretty good coverage of RTE Gold in a double decker bus from Drumcondra nearly all the way to Enniskerry (lose signal via the Scalp) beats having to listening to endless adverts and news on FM stations.

That's all very well but the selection of stations on DAB is pityfull. In Ireland DAB is just not being supported by the majority of radio stations.

Mr. Rabbit

Prisoner6409 wrote: »

That's all very well but the selection of stations on DAB is pityfull. In Ireland DAB is just not being supported by the majority of radio stations.

Which is a shame.

Pity virtually all the stations up here on Digital One are in mono now, but if we had two less stations at 80 kbps we could have 6 stations on D1 at 118 kbps in stereo. To be honest, I really can't see the point in either Teamrock or Smooth Extra, since Planet Rock and Magic play much the same genre of music.

I also can't figure out why there aren't more stations on Saorview. I think there were some commercial stations at one stage, weren't there ? It would be nice to have all the Dublin stations at least on Saorview.

The Cush

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I think there were some commercial stations at one stage, weren't there ?

No.

SimonMaher

Took a trip to Northern Ireland over the weekend and made sure to have the DAB plugged in (Pure Highway) for the journey.

First off, coverage was generally good - not many drop out areas until I took the scenic route to Downpatrick around the coast via Warrenpoint, Newcastle etc. Decent enough selection of stations too, I presume on the NI Muxes with Planet Rock, Kisstory, Absolutes and the like alongside the BBC's. Stopped off for Petrol on the A25 and the shop had BBC5 Live on for the football commentary (Roberts radio behind the counter!).

Different story south of the border of course with a pretty small selection, although once again, they sound well (even to a nerd like me). Content on RTE Gold and 2XM was pretty good too. Yep, they're mono, yep they're old technology and MP2 and all the rest but rest assured no average listener cares! If your favourite music is available on the radio in your kitchen but happens to be in 80k Mono, you'll listen!

Mr. Rabbit, there were commercial stations on the DTT tests (before Saorview was finalised) but at this point, the costing model makes it utterly impractical to use as a platform for most radio stations. Even carriage on the DAB Test Muxes is pretty expensive and nobody is going to make an investment in the platform while there is no certainty of its existence after the current trials and no joined up policy. A real missed opportunity but particularly in the major urban centres, it's not too late.

Simon

Mr. Rabbit

Mr. Rabbit, there were commercial stations on the DTT tests (before
Saorview was finalised)

Yep, that's what I obviously remembered.

Thanks for that Simon.

I notice there are quite a few blank place holders in the radio section of Saorview now so maybe a few more stations at some stage ? It would be nice to have Today FM and Newstalk at least.

If I remember correctly, FM 104 and 98 FM were both on the tests.

Mr. Rabbit

First off, coverage was generally good - not many drop out areas until I took the scenic route to Downpatrick around the coast via Warrenpoint, Newcastle etc. Decent enough selection of stations too, I presume on the NI Muxes with Planet Rock, Kisstory, Absolutes and the like alongside the BBC's. Stopped off for Petrol on the A25 and the shop had BBC5 Live on for the football commentary (Roberts radio behind the counter!).

With DAB in the car now I found coverage reasonably good as well, though I've encountered a few drop outs around Donaghadee/Groomsport. Notice there's no "burbling" (as on portable radios). It's either there or it isn't.

Really enjoying Absolute Classic Rock which started on the local mux in January. Reminds me a bit of the music Arrow Classic Rock used to play when they were on 675 kHz MW.

Alsalmo

Is there a problem with the Kippure transmitter?
I live in Kildare and assume that my DAB signal comes from this source.

A few days ago I noticed that RTE+ had disappeared from my Pure Evoke Flow. Today, no station is available.

I have tried autotune in case the stations had "moved" but even doing it outdoors, 'tho I had a good signal indoors previously, gave a result of no stations available.

Alsalmo

Alsalmo wrote: »

Is there a problem with the Kippure transmitter?
I live in Kildare and assume that my DAB signal comes from this source.

A few days ago I noticed that RTE+ had disappeared from my Pure Evoke Flow. Today, no station is available.

I have tried autotune in case the stations had "moved" but even doing it outdoors, 'tho I had a good signal indoors previously, gave a result of no stations available.

Panic over, eleven stations have arrived back, including R1 and 2FM on trial DAB+.

Jonathan

Alsalmo wrote: »

Panic over, eleven stations have arrived back, including R1 and 2FM on trial DAB+.

Is this a new RTE DAB+ trial or is it the DAB trial running down in the south east of Ireland?

Mr. Rabbit

Downtown Country launching soon (possibly Mon. April 13th) on the Northern Ireland mux. 80 kbps.

StreetLight

Upbeat Radio now testing on the former All 80s slot on DAB in Dublin.

Mickey Mike

Does anybody know when a national rollout of DAB+ taking place, I'm sure enough test and trials are done at this stage, I live in Co, Kerry.

The Cush

Mickie Mike wrote: »

Does anybody know when a national rollout of DAB+ taking place

No national policy on DAB rollout yet.