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What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm

fclauson

The Government are about to announce the new Wind Farm Guidelines in which they will specify what the acceptable wind noise limits are

What do you think they should be?

WHO = World Health Organisation
WEDG06 = Irish Wind Energy Design Guidelines 2006

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fclauson

Just done a quick calc

42db(A) which is the proposed wind farm guidelines is a Lden of 48.3

You can check my maths by doing (remember to use logarithmic maths)
that ((42*12) + (42+5)*4 +(42+10)*8)

So looking at the Noise map posted - its all those areas in yellow next to those busy roads

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//WaterWasteEnvironment/NoiseMapsandActionPlans/Documents/DCCLden2012.pdf

Old diesel

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?

Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.

Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789

LOL at background +5dB

http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).

Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans

In terms of the space argument - what I meant was - if you have a wind farm - and the turbines on it are spread over 1000 acres of land - how do you produce more wind power in that 1000 acres.

Another way to look at it would be - how might one REDUCE the percentage of land in the country that's required for wind farms

Heres one TDs description of what he found when he visited 2 houses where residents reported issues.

https://www.facebook.com/johnhalliganwaterford/posts/796506477080054

The description is the TDs OWN based on what HE found

Thing is - its not wind energy itself that concerns me - but when I hear of issues being reported - id like to see those with the relevant expertise in these matters actually get to the bottom of them.

Its what ive come to expect - in other areas - if the car gives issues - you expect them to be fixed (for example)

fclauson

For those who want know about traffic noise then this might be of interest

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/louder_motorways_can_drown_wind_turbine_noise_47si9_en.pdf

Birdnuts

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?

Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.

Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789

LOL at background +5dB

http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).

Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans

Utterly irrelevant comparison given the normal background noise in rural areas compared to a city. As for windfarms and tourism. Try telling this lady her business can function next to a wind farm

http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/business/turbines-appalling-says-castle-owner-1-6260094

As for space takin up by wind farms. 250,000 acres of windfarm sprawl is needed to match the theoretical output of a conventional power station. Wind farms need an extensive network of pylons and service roads which adds to their ugly footprint in sensitive landscapes.

http://www.cfact.org/2013/11/02/u-k-takes-down-infographic-showing-footprint-of-nuclear-vs-renewables/

fclauson

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.

All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.

unfortunate wrong the Carrickaduff in Donegal requires felling of 121.4 hectares of trees

http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Environmental/EIS/Chapter%2011%20-%20Landscape.pdf

the digging out of 566,750 cu of peat
3675 lorries of concrete
98 artics of steel

Capt'n Midnight

fclauson wrote: »

Finally the prediction model for wind turbines does not work - at my site I should receive around 36dB(A)Laeq or 33dB(A) MAXIMIUM - but this is not the case we have plots where the measurements are around 36dB(A)L90 - 3db about the prediction.

you are getting 36dB

This Daytime map of Dublin only goes down to 40dB and only for the centre of the 500 Acres in the middle of the Phoenix Park. http://www.dublincity.ie

Anything coloured in this night time map is 9dB above what you are getting.

You'll have to explain the difference in the lden , especially the bit about penalties again , because it's easier to get used to continuous noise than changes in noise level

Capt'n Midnight

fclauson wrote: »

unfortunate wrong the Carrickaduff in Donegal requires felling of 121.4 hectares of trees

http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Environmental/EIS/Chapter%2011%20-%20Landscape.pdf

the digging out of 566,750 cu of peat
3675 lorries of concrete
98 artics of steel

that document doesn't even contain the words steel or concrete

and peat is mentioned as

Where possible, the peat that has been excavated and not used elsewhere will be
stored with the vegetated side facing up so as to promote the growth of vegetation
across the surface of the stored peat within the borrow pit area. Following these works
therefore, the predicted impact is therefore a Long term, Slight Negative impact.

so we're still at [Citation required]

BTW Coilte are in the business of harvesting trees not just felling them

Turns out the doc you were actually looking for is
http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Planning/Planning%20Documents/Planning%20Application%20Cover%20Report.pdf which says

The proposed development will involve identifiable change (permanent or temporary
habitat loss) of approximately 129.58 hectares of habitat, equivalent to approximately
3% of the study area. The vast majority of this (approximately 94%) will be low
biodiversity value forestry habitats (conifer plantation and recently-felled woodland
that will soon be replanted with forestry).

fclauson

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You'll have to explain the difference in the lden , especially the bit about penalties again , because it's easier to get used to continuous noise than changes in noise level

LDEN =LOG(1/24*((10^(42/10))*12+(10^((42+5)/10)*4)+(10^((42+10)/10)*8)))*10

1/24 = to give it as an hourly figure
42 = the Laeq(1hr) noise level of the period
12 = hours daytime (7am->7pm)
4 = hours evening time (7pm->11pm)
8 = hours night time (11pm ->7am)
+5 = evening penalty
42+10 = night time penalty (the only 10 which is nothing to do with the log base)
all of the other 10's because its log base 10 we are calculating in

Lnight is a calculation just of the night time portion of the above (i.e. contains no penalty)

the proposed 42 db(A) Laeq limit - which will be converted to a 40db(A)La90 limit

(for those who do not understand La90 it typically takes a 10 min period uses the lowest 90 percentile i.e. of a 10 min period measuring in 100ms slices only 10% of those slices are used for doing the measurement and its the lowest valued slices which get selected - this is to try and obtain the noise with out dogs barking, birds chirruping etc and just measure what is believed to be the constant noise of a wind farm)

Old diesel

fclauson wrote: »

unfortunate wrong the Carrickaduff in Donegal requires felling of 121.4 hectares of trees

http://www.carrickaduffwindfarm.com/carrickaduffWF/pdf/Environmental/EIS/Chapter%2011%20-%20Landscape.pdf

the digging out of 566,750 cu of peat
3675 lorries of concrete
98 artics of steel

This highlights how turbines on the wind farm are actually spread out - and its this "spread out" nature that brings the turbines closer to homes.

While we are talking noise here - the question also merits asking AGAIN - how do we calculate a satisfactory setback distance from homes - and how do we design turbines to actually work well near homes/in communities.

That's part of the issue I think - does the guy DESIGNING the turbine INTEND them to be 500 metres from homes when the turbines are 160 metres high.

The one thing ive NEVER read in all the various claims about wind farms being fine - is a manufacturer claiming that their model x660 160 metre 2.5 metre turbine is DESIGNED to operate at a 500 metre setback.

Youd think this would be a GREAT selling point for a turbine designed to be 500 metres away from homes - so why haven't I heard a manufacturer claim this????

Old diesel

At the end of the day - its a tricky situation - we DO need to address climate - but people in homes actually have to live.

So how do we get the balance right - even if we may have to consider moving some people from their current one off houses - that's an issue in itself - because if someone needs to move out of their home - where do they move to - and who will pay for it.

Those supporting wind will say - residents can live in their current homes - that's fantastic

So how do we ensure that if we say people can continue living in their homes - how do we ensure this is the case.

After all - all we are doing in that scenario is ensuring that what we promise - is in fact delivered on.

The claim is that wind turbines won't interfere - soensuring this should thus be no problem

Capt'n Midnight

Old diesel wrote: »

At the end of the day - its a tricky situation - we DO need to address climate - but people in homes actually have to live.

So how do we get the balance right - even if we may have to consider moving some people from their current one off houses - that's an issue in itself - because if someone needs to move out of their home - where do they move to - and who will pay for it.

Those supporting wind will say - residents can live in their current homes - that's fantastic

So how do we ensure that if we say people can continue living in their homes - how do we ensure this is the case.

After all - all we are doing in that scenario is ensuring that what we promise - is in fact delivered on.

The claim is that wind turbines won't interfere - soensuring this should thus be no problem

At this stage I'd nearly ask if you are a SF supporter because you keep asking the same questions without proposing any sort of solutions other than "No Surrender"

The balance is simple. A good compromise is when everyone is equally dissatisfied, and with pylons and turbines we have objective measurements of distance, noise, electrical field etc. I suppose where we differ is that when I refer to everyone I include those in urban areas who have to put up with similar stuff and whose bills are affected.

Just to reiterate, you can't put wind turbines closer together because it affects the air flow.

Same way if you landing at an airport in a learjet you want to stay at least 8 miles behind an Airbus 380.

The only way to get more power is to interact with more air. This usually means taller turbines with longer blades, there's also more energy higher up so you get that bonus too.
Yes you can add ducts or add more blades but then you are seriously into eyesore territory , you also get more noise because more turbulence , and it's also more expensive. There's a reason why three blade turbines totally dominate the wind industry.

As for moving people the last resort would be a compulsory purchase order. Not an ideal option but it means people can't stonewall forever. Other options are treble glazing and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees and of course compo. Sometimes I think the last option is key to some protesters.

Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.

I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.

Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.

Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz

Capt'n Midnight

Here's a nice little app https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=radonsoft.net.spectralview

it displays sound levels but only relative to the maximum reading on the phone and the free version only goes to 8KHz , an android phone will go to 24Khz , but wind turbine noise is low frequency, and most of the time I've used it there's been a low frequency background

Old diesel

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

At this stage I'd nearly ask if you are a SF supporter because you keep asking the same questions without proposing any sort of solutions other than "No Surrender"

The balance is simple. A good compromise is when everyone is equally dissatisfied, and with pylons and turbines we have objective measurements of distance, noise, electrical field etc. I suppose where we differ is that when I refer to everyone I include those in urban areas who have to put up with similar stuff and whose bills are affected.

Just to reiterate, you can't put wind turbines closer together because it affects the air flow.

Same way if you landing at an airport in a learjet you want to stay at least 8 miles behind an Airbus 380.

The only way to get more power is to interact with more air. This usually means taller turbines with longer blades, there's also more energy higher up so you get that bonus too.
Yes you can add ducts or add more blades but then you are seriously into eyesore territory , you also get more noise because more turbulence , and it's also more expensive. There's a reason why three blade turbines totally dominate the wind industry.

As for moving people the last resort would be a compulsory purchase order. Not an ideal option but it means people can't stonewall forever. Other options are treble glazing and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees and of course compo. Sometimes I think the last option is key to some protesters.

Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.

I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.

Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.

Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz

No what id like is for solutions - not just wind - to actually improve.

The problem isn't ME, rural residents, people with concerns about wind.

The problem is a shoddy poor wind industry - that's what needs to change.

Wind turbines are here to stay - regardless of what me or anyone else thinks of them.

I actually want the damn things to develop over time - I don't expect to see a wind turbine 10 feet from another - that's unrealistic.

That's why i said when we have wind turbines spread over 1000 acres - that that we look at how to get more power from that 1000 acres.

You and I disagree - its no problem - we have a different outlook on things - i may well be wrong

I have just become accustomed to things ALWAYS improving whether its cars, tractors, lorries, computers and other stuff.

I accept we need to change - that's why i alluded to people moving - and moving away from one off houses.

If you were to reduce the amount of communities out there - you might actually free up space for wind turbines - whether that's a good idea or not is something open to debate - and the question - is how would one do this fairly.

Old diesel

Anyway - regarding long term solutions.

Really the long term solutions are likely to involve a number of different scenarios being designed TOGETHER.

So we would plan for energy and living together - rather then completely in isolation from each other.

The reason i don't have solutions - is i don't have the actual expertise to DESIGN the solutions - i really wish i had.

In terms of everyone being equally dissatisfied - is that not an unbelievably negative way of looking at things - why not design solutions - that allow us all to live in harmony with energy, our environment - present and future.

One of the big questions - is how do we design the living solutions of the future - communities and homes of the future - and design them to work BOTH for people and the energy solutions of the future.

The current difficulty with wind is that its being looked at on its own - rather then as part of a wider context of living, community, peoples needs and so many other factors.

We probably will have less communities going forward - which needs to be planned for too.

Its a wider issue then just turbines and Rural Ireland

djpbarry

fclauson wrote: »

Have you voted as yet - will answer you questions once you have

I don't have to vote to participate in the discussion.

I'm actually struggling to understand what your argument is at this stage. People living in rural areas should never have to experience any noise whatsoever?

Old diesel

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't have to vote to participate in the discussion.

I'm actually struggling to understand what your argument is at this stage. People living in rural areas should never have to experience any noise whatsoever?

No not any noise whatsoever

but IDEALLY - not noise that interferes unacceptably with normal everyday living and sleeping in their homes.

The problem of course is how do you define what is acceptable and what is not acceptable

Hence the question of the OP - What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm.

Unfortunately - and I know im to blame at least partially for this - the discussion is going around in circles.

There is a massive debate needed on how we move forward energy wise - the problem begins when we look at wind in complete isolation from EVERYTHING else.

Rather then planning all the vital elements for planning a better including LIVING - low carbon future together.

For example - what would a SUSTAINABLE community look like - how would we design that community to be actually lived in.

So many issues to be tackled - we won't get it down in this thread - but as a society - we might tackle them all by working together.

Its certainly not about giving everyone what they want - but ensuring the best outcome that can be achieved for everyone in a PROPER single tier society moving towards low carbon - might be a good start

fclauson

djpbarry wrote: »

...
I'm actually struggling to understand what your argument is at this stage. People living in rural areas should never have to experience any noise whatsoever?

From you info you live in Wandsworth - which is a far cry from rural Ireland.

As an ex Londer who lived in Hammersmith for 20 years I know that you put up with aeroplanes, tube trains etc plus the general rumble of London.

We are not saying that rural living people should never experience noise whatsoever - but the noise level change has to not impact the amenity a dwelling.

If you refere to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuisance_in_English_law and the famous quote from 1879
"what would be a nuisance in Belgrave Square [a residential area] would not necessarily be so in Bermondsey [a smelly industrial area]".

A noise nuisance in Wandsworth would be different to a noise nuisance in rural ireland.

The question is what is an acceptable level - hence the poll

fclauson

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

... Other options are treble glazing

does not work
a) you should be allowed to open you windows when you want
b) triple glazing will not stop for example a frequency of 167Hz which has a wave length of 17,000Km !!

and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees

that can take 30 years

... Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.

as an ex Londoner - you have to look at the whole soundscape - in London there are all sort of noises - in the country there are very few - so there is little to mask the noise of wind turbines.

I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.

may well be true in some cases - but not all by any means

Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.

won't work due to frequency (and making you go to the loo all night !!)

Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz

But I want to open my windows

Markcheese

"But I want to open my windows"

Do so .

Rural Ireland is a changing soundscape - different sounds now tractors - slurry tankers- milking machine vacuum pumps( there's a sound that travels) , forestry can be fairly noisey too - neighbours dogs drive me nuts - I'd agree that noise reduction and remediation are a good move but would question wether wind development should cease or be made unfeasable because of reasonable noise -
Also since most turbines are high up and in isolated areas they're going to impact relatively few people - so planting and noise reduction fences can help but not if someone one insists on sleeping on a high platform as near as possible to a turbine with a gramophone trumpet in each ear waiting to be disturbed by something -anything -
That said if the turbine has been poorly installed/ sited and causes a major disturbance to a neighbour there has to be some comeback -

fclauson

Markcheese wrote: »

"But I want to open my windows"

Do so .

Rural Ireland is a changing soundscape - different sounds now tractors - slurry tankers- milking machine vacuum pumps( there's a sound that travels) , forestry can be fairly noisey too - neighbours dogs drive me nuts - I'd agree that noise reduction and remediation are a good move but would question wether wind development should cease or be made unfeasable because of reasonable noise -
Also since most turbines are high up and in isolated areas they're going to impact relatively few people - so planting and noise reduction fences can help but not if someone one insists on sleeping on a high platform as near as possible to a turbine with a gramophone trumpet in each ear waiting to be disturbed by something -anything -
That said if the turbine has been poorly installed/ sited and causes a major disturbance to a neighbour there has to be some comeback -

But should I still be able to hear them inside an super insulated house
walls 450mm wall (100mm block/250mm full fill cavity/100mm block)
500mm of pumped cellulose in the roof
and triple glazing

probably not !!

and I am 1.3km/1 mile from them

Old diesel

Markcheese wrote: »

"But I want to open my windows"

Do so .

Rural Ireland is a changing soundscape - different sounds now tractors - slurry tankers- milking machine vacuum pumps( there's a sound that travels) , forestry can be fairly noisey too - neighbours dogs drive me nuts - I'd agree that noise reduction and remediation are a good move but would question wether wind development should cease or be made unfeasable because of reasonable noise -
Also since most turbines are high up and in isolated areas they're going to impact relatively few people - so planting and noise reduction fences can help but not if someone one insists on sleeping on a high platform as near as possible to a turbine with a gramophone trumpet in each ear waiting to be disturbed by something -anything -
That said if the turbine has been poorly installed/ sited and causes a major disturbance to a neighbour there has to be some comeback -

Its not a case of saying wind turbines should stop - in fact I expect them to keep coming on line - regardless of what I or others might think of them

Rather its a case (for me) of how do we improve them in terms of any issues they might cause.

And taking a wider approach in terms of our general planning - looking at energy, looking at how people live - and so on.

I think ive already mentioned in this thread - about the need to move away from one off houses.

Something causing noise - BUT NOT interfering with important things like sleep - that's fine.

If something causes issues with sleep (for example) - then that's an issue because sleep is important.

Again the thread was about what the noise levels should actually be.

Its a case really of defining what exactly is okay - and whats not okay - one can't always have what you want - but being able to live okay in your own home and sleep in it - that should be a reasonable expectation.

House in the wrong place - ie a one off house - fair enough - BUT the people in it still need to be able to get on with their living without SERIOUS issues

Capt'n Midnight

fclauson wrote: »

b) triple glazing will not stop for example a frequency of 167Hz which has a wave length of 17,000Km !!

Actually it's 2 meters.

And I mentioned the dampening stuff that you use in sound studios to mitigate any noise that gets in.

fclauson

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Actually it's 2 meters.

You are right of course - sound does not travel at the speed of light :rolleyes: but if it did I would still have been wrong as its 1784478.917meters

djpbarry

fclauson wrote: »

From you info you live in Wandsworth - which is a far cry from rural Ireland.

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything?

fclauson wrote: »

We are not saying that rural living people should never experience noise whatsoever - but the noise level change has to not impact the amenity a dwelling.

Fair enough, but you’re comparing the noise from a wind turbine with the noise from road traffic. In a rural area. At night. When there is presumably little to no traffic. And, therefore, little or no noise from traffic. That’s not a reasonable comparison.

fclauson wrote: »

The question is what is an acceptable level - hence the poll

Most of the levels in your poll are fairly arbitrary, right? I mean, audible perception is pretty subjective. As I’ve already stated earlier in the thread, a difference of the order of 5dB is unlikely to make a massive difference to anyone’s quality of life. Roughly doubling the minimum guideline distance between turbines and dwellings, and significantly reducing available land for turbines in the process, for the sake of reducing ambient noise by about 5 – 7 dB, doesn’t seem like a sensible trade-off to me.

fclauson

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything?

because when I come from Hammersmith to here I think its quiet initially - until the ear adjusts

Most of the levels in your poll are fairly arbitrary, right?

no they are based on the current noise guidelines used to build wind farms and the ETSU-R-97 guidance documents

I mean, audible perception is pretty subjective. As I’ve already stated earlier in the thread, a difference of the order of 5dB is unlikely to make a massive difference to anyone’s quality of life.

not so 6db is a 1.5 the loudness
double the sound pressure
and 4 time the sound intensity

Roughly doubling the minimum guideline distance between turbines and dwellings, and significantly reducing available land for turbines in the process, for the sake of reducing ambient noise by about 5 – 7 dB, doesn’t seem like a sensible trade-off to me.

Now that is the big "depends"
depends if you live in a city and think the country is quiet
or
as people round here have
live in the country for 100's of years and hate the city as its a place with its continuous cacophony of noise with no peace

Old diesel

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/doctors-call-for-reductionin-turbine-noise-317947.html

The 30 db idea gets a mention - and its referred to as a WHO recommendation

At the end of the day - what is a good outcome for residents - and what can the wind industry do better to help ensure a good outcome

Old diesel

To me ensuring wind turbines DON'T cause issues - shouldn't be an issue for those who support wind - for the simple reason that all they would be doing is ensuring the turbines perform as they say they will.

In other words wind developers and the wind industry are claiming the turbines won't cause issues - so it should be okay then to ENSURE this is the case.

Its like a car manufacturer claiming that its cars are very reliable - how do they ensure the cars thus perform for reliability as youd expect from a car that's very reliable.

The wind energy scenario is the same - you say they won't cause issues - fabulous - now work to ensure that's what actually happens - that's what will build confidence in the technology

djpbarry

fclauson wrote: »

no they are based on the current noise guidelines used to build wind farms and the ETSU-R-97 guidance documents

They’re still arbitrary. Similarly, recommended limits on alcohol consumption are based on medical evidence, but they’re still arbitrary.

fclauson wrote: »

not so 6db is a 1.5 the loudness
double the sound pressure
and 4 time the sound intensity

Yeah, I know how logarithms work, thanks. It doesn’t counter my point though. If something really quiet becomes 50% louder, it’s still going to be really quiet.

fclauson wrote: »

Now that is the big "depends"
depends if you live in a city and think the country is quiet
or
as people round here have
live in the country for 100's of years and hate the city as its a place with its continuous cacophony of noise with no peace

So despite all the figures you keep throwing around in an attempt to ground your argument in science, this is what it all boils down to?

Old diesel

A big issue here - is why are we breaching WHO guidelines

Are WHO guidelines too low - and if they are - what is a REASONABLE noise limit to ensure residential amenity is protected - and people can live happily - normally - in their homes.

Its hard for someone to trust the guidance of someone - policy maker, wind developer and others whose interest is getting as many wind turbines in place - if that guidance is higher then WHO limits.

At best theres a question mark - and its for someone proposing higher limits to PROPERLY demonstrate why their higher noise levels are okay when the WHO is recommending a LOWER limit.

How do we resolve the question mark - and ensure that turbines are in fact trouble free - which is what the industry THEMSELVES would claim - so ensuring trouble free operation shouldn't be an issue

fclauson

Medical support for the numbers: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/doctors-call-for-reductionin-turbine-noise-317947.html