seavill wrote: » What do you think the unions have been doing. They have been refusing hence why we were on strike. Yet the same proposals are on the table. Either you have no clue what's going on or you are just trying to wind everyone up at this stage
seavill wrote: » Again missing (or choosing to miss) the point. The jcsa is in. English has already started this year. Had we not gone on strike the first lot of assessment would be getting prepared at least. With no guidelines or none of your procedures. They are the only ones on the table. There is no "at the moment about it". Do you agree if we accept the proposals then we will have a very poor system in place that will be nowhere near what you describe. Have you looked at the proposals from the mediator? How do they match up with your system. That is what we are currently fighting. There is no go back and work together as it stands. That is what we are trying to make happen. By fighting it. If we accept we certainly don't have your system in place
katydid wrote: » A few classes off for a week now and then isn't going to give you much time for correcting, and you can't possibly leave it all until May. It needs to be all done by the time the students finish; the only thing left to correct at that stage would be the end of year exams, which you have to dash to correct before the externs come. Appeals are not to the school. They are to FETAC. Once you have submitted your marks in May, you have no more to do with it. And that's as it should be. There IS a system, it DOES work. The hard work that FE centres have put in to developing QA assured systems can be taken on board and used in further developments in other sectors, and even in FE itself.
seavill wrote: » They are reacting to the current proposals and dismissing them, and rightly so in my opinion. You are basically saying we have to start again and put a proper system in place which will not happen in the current situation. There is a set of proposals that we can accept or reject. If we accept we have the system no one wants that won't be like anything you describe. That is what people are against. yes you have gotten into a war of words in particular about FETAC but my reading of the arguments, as an outsider to the discussion, is that you are talking about one thing, they are talking about the current proposals. Several people have said in response to you that they are not against CA. Can you see that the system you are talking about has nothing to do with the proposals that are on the table - the only options available.
katydid wrote: » I know, but they are not asking for a better system, just refusing out of hand to even consider the idea. That's not going to get anyone anywhere. Why not start asking...no, demanding...a proper system?
seavill wrote: » The problem is there are no proposals for sorting any system. The proposals that are there are whats on the table, you are basically saying we go back to stratch and start all over again, which is correct, but thats not what is on the table. The people here are reacting to what is on the table currently, and what is there is not a proper system or not a proposal to put a proper system in place. Your proposals are all well and good but its not the reality of what is on the table. People here are against the current set of proposals which is all that there is an option on.
katydid wrote: » That's exactly what I've been saying all along. The system has to be sorted first, and THAT is what second level teachers should be insisting on before there is any introduction of change. They are putting the cart before the horse.
seavill wrote: » I think the point is being missed. I think most posters have said they are not against CA. Your points have been that if run properly the system can work. Which is fine. I think where the other posters are coming from is, the way the jcsa has been (or tried to be) implemented currently there is no proper system in place that you mention. And there is no plan that I have heard of to put it in place. For it to work properly as you say the correct systems and policies need to be there. Surely this is something that needs to be done day one before there are huge issues. The point being that no structures are in place for the new English course for example which is technically already in place. So the system has already failed. From reading the thread I think this is where the biggest issue is. Obviously people don't want to correct their own students if a proper structure was in place from day one the opposition might not be as strong but we can all see where this is going being rushed in with no concrete proposals. People's concerns are that it will be too late in two years time to try to fix all the problems that could be sorted with a properly thought through system which is not what we are getting currently
rainbowtrout wrote: » Again you are making assumptions about something you know nothing about. Not every centre has hundreds of FE students. There are loads of centres that only have 20-30 students, mine being one of them, and plenty of other centres local to me are similar. So having one extern is usually all that is required. Every folder in my centre is internally verified. As we know the extern will not scrutinise every one I can be assured that at least every folder has been checked by another tutor to ensure the marks add up and all the work is present that there is a mark for. So from that point of view we have 100% verification. I have no control over how many folders the extern moderates.
katydid wrote: » Jeez, you don't need to take it personally, unless you are a CEO or something! The idea is to extern as much as possible, not to deliberately limit the amount of externs. If that is what your ETB is doing, it is not operating the system correctly; it's as simple as that. There is no centre where there is 100% moderation. That is just impractical, given that most moderators are teachers who are themselves run ragged trying to get tehir own paperwork done. As I explained, it's not necessary to have it as long as teachers don't know until the last minute who will be moderated and what won't be.
rainbowtrout wrote: » You have some cheek saying my ETB doesn't operate correctly when work is going unmoderated in your centre. You've been presenting your centre as the model FE centre for the last day or two. It clearly doesn't operate properly when student work isn't checked.
rainbowtrout wrote: » I've never had a problem sourcing them, FETAC provide a list. Ring someone on the list. My centre isn't big enough to justify two authenticators. My centre doesn't operate that policy, to the best of my knowledge that's a policy created at ETB level.
acequion wrote: » Wow! So,now I'm like a five year old by calling you for what you are! Fine,I'll happily be a five year old while you continue to hog this thread. Enjoy!
katydid wrote: » We always have problems sourcing enough, and some years some material has to go unmoderated. But we teachers don't know until the very last minute what moderators we will be getting, so there's no temptation to cut corners or even cheat. If your ETB doesn't operate the system as it should be, that needs to be addressed. As I said, the system isn't perfect, but it can and does operate properly.
katydid wrote: » You are supposed to get as many externs as possible; the problem is sourcing them. If your centre operates a policy of having a different kind of extern every year, that must be its own policy. It shows the need for a coordinated system.
katydid wrote: » I am basing what I say on my experience. You can bury your head in the sand all you want and put me on ignore, but it doesn't change the fact that my experience is valid. You are free to disagree with me, as I disagree with you, but there's no need to carry on like a five year old.
man_no_plan wrote: » Not forgetting that in most centres plc students are off for work xperience and wind up early befor teh summer allowing TIME for all the marking and moderation. Apeals are to the school!!!! Who re marks them? Only one teacher of Rurais favourite subject mandarin Chinese, appeal is lodged - who looks at it? Same teacher? External teacher? Katydid I appreciate where you are coming from and agree that it could work in theory oaf there was a proper system. The fact is that there is no system, there is no thought, it is make it up as you go along and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it Its not good enough and it will never be good enough.
rainbowtrout wrote: » No they don't, you are supposed to get in an extern from a different specialism every year, so each one gets scrutinised in turn. What that means for my centre in the main is that sometimes we have a sports person in and sometimes a business person in as that is where most of our modules and certificates are based. However until recently I was teaching a programming module. Programming is specialist and with the best will in the world, even with a detailed marking scheme, a person who can't program won't have a bull's notion what they are looking at when they are presented with several pages of code in a programming project. They have no idea what kind of standard it is. Our extern told me the same. She was thorough in the modules she was familiar with/taught herself and queried a few things with the tutors which is a good thing, but told me she knew nothing about programming and just stamped them and signed off.
katydid wrote: » T External assessors are not always experts in your subject area, but they have the marking schemes and the evidence in front of them, and have to have some idea of what they are looking at. If there are discrepancies, they would normally come to light.
acequion wrote: » You are like a propaganda machine! In fact you're uncannily like our employers! I reckon you don't read beyond the first line of a post before bulldozing in with your own view which you will impose regardless. Just look at how you've hogged the last few pages of this thread! The fact is that I don't agree with you and I resent your dogged imposition of your viewpoint at a time when my profession is under constant attack. No doubt you'll be back hogging page after page with your own entrenched views. Off you go! For those of us who are very tired of you,it looks like time for the "ignore button".
ustazjoseph wrote: » "The whole basis of this kind of assessment has to be consistency and fairness. If you are inconsistent - setting a date for an assignment and then bending the rules for certain students, or if you confuse them by offering different assessment methods for the same assignment, the system will not work." of course your right but.... there is not as yet a country wide fair consistent system, FETAC 5 from a very well run training centre ( old FAS) v centralised , is not guaranteed to be the same as fetac 5 same subject in a small adult ed centre. There s lots of emphasis on QA and on having checklists and tons of paperwork but little enough about the actual quality of teaching and learning. i accept some centres might be excellent many are not.
