Inspector Coptoor wrote: » If we can avoid accepting the swallowing of this, thin end of the wedge, bitter pill to swallow, why would we work to ensure it comes in. It is going to cost the government, through the SEC, to correct the 60% terminal exams, why not correct the 40% CA while they are at it? I facilitate my junior science students with their projects which are a form of CA, I dont WANT to have to mark them. I don't know how many other ways I can say it, it's iff the table as far as I'm concerned and if this line buffalo through, just watch the stampede of "new directives" that well further casualiae and denigrate our "profession" A real professional stands up for his/her profession and this is an example of just that
katydid wrote: » And why should you think that we should do what they do in the UK? There is huge pressure on schools over there to pass exams because their funding is dependent on results. I know teachers over there who finish projects for their students because their jobs depend on whether or not their students pass. Our schools are no dependent on exams for funding and the day they are would be a disaster for Irish education. As I've said all along, with the proper assessment procedures, proper support from the department in the form of external assessment and proper support from management, there is no reason that it should in any way be like the UK system.
katydid wrote: Why would you work to give your students who don't do well in exams a chance at a better grade in their state exams? I find that a strange question, to be honest.
katydid wrote: The only real issue here is WHO corrects the assessments, not whether or not CA is a good thing, surely?
poster2525 wrote: » I spent 7 years working in the further education sector in Ireland, and I have written/graded/assessed approx 10 modules. Some of the difficulties I have encountered include: - work being thrown at me after a deadline and having to accept and grade it - difficulty in allocating grades when giving students a choice in how they may present an assignment e.g. video v written - broad open ended assignments are very hard to grade, you're giving a student the mark 3/5 based upon your best judgement and must be prepared to stand over that if necessary - 'workbooks' can be easy to grade (they tick all the boxes, so to speak), but must be prepared in advance and are easily copied Other issues: - absenteeism from students, and then 'hey presto' a piece of finished work - spoonfeeding/carrying students through a course
Ekstar wrote: » Speaking as a student in second level, I completely disagree with the new Junior Cert. Yes I do see some benefits, but I feel that none of these outways the problems. First of all, Not every student is going to agree with the teacher's grade. You dont realise but students constantly complain about how the teacher unfairly marked them because 'They always hated me'. As well as that, there is different types of teachers in schools. In my school, we have a very relaxed, easy marker french teacher who would almost give you marks for your name even if she had to tell you how to spell it. Then theres another French teacher who you is very harsh when correcting. Now if there is two french classes that year, the class with the harsher class will complain the other class was marked far easier, and in turn the other class feel like they didnt deserve that mark, even if they did. Personally, I have done the state Junior Cert and I liked it. I know everyone says it falls all on one day and its unfair on some people, but its clear that the people who are keeping up with the work, studying throughout the year for every class test, naturally does better in the exam. In my opinion your work throughout the year is reflected in the current junior cert system.
2011abc wrote: » How could anybody who has worked more than a wet week in the Irish education system suggest that we DONT copy everything the British do ? After school /lunchtime subject department meetings , minuted of course 'Heads' of subject departments , teachers ( especially young ones) 'on site' at 8am AND 530pm .Acronyms for EVERYTHING ( Traver's A.S.S !!!!!!!) .League Tables.( International) Demise of 'faith schools' , Best Practice Going Forward etc etc You can't help but notice that every second 'talking head' rolled out by a government dept or Quango these days is British .Its like our 'rulers' have some kind of post colonial inferiority complex .The dogs on the street knew that our education system was ( is?) the envy of the world (and CERTAINLY the UK )up until very recently . Sure this carry on is so well known we even mock the fact they adopt practices when the British are giving them up as failures . You haven't noticed this Katy? ( By the way the British education system seems to be in its death throes as far as I can see , the American system is DEAD .Teachers status and conditions have been downgraded beyond belief .Only children of the rich are served by these changes .(Semi)Privatisation of schools is endemic in UK . )
katydid wrote: » There are ways round all those issues. - Don't accept work late without a medical cert (I know that it can be a problem if someone is absent on a cert and then produces the work) -don't give them a choice in how to present the work, be clear from the beginning -Use workbooks in such a way that they are prepared and filled out in class, after a class discussion on the contents, so no copying can be done
poster2525 wrote: » - I've seen work being accepted the week before the external examiner was due to arriive! Managment can put teachers under pressure to do so. Granted, they'd get the student to jump through a few hoops! I personally would accept work from a student if I felt that they had a strong chance that this would be a terminal point in their education. - I've worked with very intelligent students who had difficulty putting pen to paper, but were very articulate, and could present their ideas well. I gave a choice of video presentation in these instances. The more you differentiate, the harder life becomes as you have to correct and stand over the work. - the workbook format can be very helpful in allowing students to work independently, and at their own pace....if you provide 20 pages, as opposed to 1 page at a time it facilitates independent learning and group work....students can approach you as needed There are a lot of merits in CA...I'm not saying it's all bad. I'm just saying it's not all roses. I personally like to work in this way, but a lot of extra work is currently being put on the table!
katydid wrote: » No, management can't put pressure on anyone to accept work after the due date if there is a clear, school wide policy on this matter. Where I work, it is written down in a code of practice we have developed on our internal assessment system and both teachers, students and management know it. If a teacher were to bend the rules, the students who had their assignments in on time would be the first to kick up a stink, and complain to management. If there were a clear policy and you were to break it and accept work from a student, you would be undermining your colleagues and being unfair to the students who took the trouble to get the work in on time. You may think this is pie in the sky, but it is how we operate it, and it works. The students know, and don't even try it on because they know the answer they will get.
katydid wrote: » I do understand why you might give students an option of methods of presentation, but you are not doing any of the students any favours by that, or yourself, as you are setting yourself up for querying of the results you gave. You have to be able to stand over your results and if there is a difference in assessment methods between students, someone is bound to feel aggrieved. In any case, in the current FETAC system, there is, as far as I know, no leeway to offer different assessment methods to different students. For those who are better at different kinds of assessment, all you can do is incorporate within the overall assessment of the subject opportunities for differing assessment methods, so that all students have an opportunity to shine.
acequion wrote: » @2011abc, you're wasting your time arguing with katydid. This poster doesn't want to hear our concerns,appears to be in favour of a bureaucratised system,pretends to sympathise, yet ignores our fears about the ever increasing pressure cooker that the job has become, and will always come back with the last word anyway. For the zillionth time, I want to make it clear that for me this dispute is every bit as much about protecting what is left of our job conditions as defending an education system,which is well functioning,if not perfect. And by job conditions, let me make it clear that teachers correcting 40% or any % of the JC,with or without all these "marvellous" external supports, only heaps an incredible amount of extra work and pressure on already overworked teachers. FACT! And the idea that we should do this without any extra pay and definitely with an erosion of our holidays, is a complete joke and a total non runner. Even with extra pay,it would be horrible,which is why a large percentage of teachers don't correct state exams. How,after the enormous erosion of pay and conditions and the demoralised state of the profession,any teacher would even give the whole thing five minutes consideration is beyond me. NO MEANS NO. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. But,cue a certain poster who'll basically tell us to get over ourselves and trot off now and do what we're told! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
katydid wrote: » I am certainly not ignoring your fears; I have said repeatedly that this system has to be operated properly or not at all. It has to be properly monitored and it has to be open and transparent, and yes, it should be paid. Nobody should do extra work for nothing, and it's to the second level teachers' credit that they haven't even made this an issue. My point is that instead of fighting it tooth and nail, teachers should be insisting that it goes ahead on their terms. By resisting it, they just look like they don't want change. Yet, they will admit that CA is important for those for whom exam stress is an issue, and for others such as practical learners who find it hard to reproduce what they know in an exam setting. This is a chance for teachers to look at how it works elsewhere - in this country, amongst their own colleagues - and to insist that the practices that govern other state certification such as FETAC/QQA be adopted at second level. Continuous assessment works and it's great for many students. It can be administered fairly and objectively, and if it is set up right, and guidelines are adhered to, pressure from students or their parents is not an issue. Instead of rejecting it out of hand, this is the time to make it work for the student - and the student is at the centre of this - and to make it work in a way that will satisfy everyone. The present proposals are not the answer, but they are a starting point.
rainbowtrout wrote: » Of course they can and they do. It's great that it works in your school, but by and large it's not the case. Even the SEC push the boundaries. Two years running when I had JC Science, I recieved phone calls in August from the school, as the SEC had gotten in contact with them saying that (the first year) two students had not ticked off the list of mandatory experiments on their coursework booklet and would lose 10% but if I sent in a letter/fax on school headed paper they would give them the marks. I told them in no uncertain terms would they be getting such a letter as the two students had not done the work. The following year similar happened, except the students in question only did a few of the experiments, so only ticked off say 7/30 experiments. Again I got the call asking me for a letter like the previous year. 1. Another teacher might have signed off knowing the students didn't do the work. 2. It was months past the deadline. 3. There are plenty of principals who will put pressure on teachers to accept late submissions. This is a reality. In pretty much every FETAC module I've ever come across it says under the assessment section 'Learners may submit project in a variety of forms, written, video, poster, oral etc' If a tutor was to put that on their assignment brief then the student can submit it in any of those forms. More work for the teacher though. I usually don't give mine an option.
katydid wrote: » It can work the same way in every school if common guidelines are set down and adhered to by everyone.If you get phone calls from management, you simply say that it is not your concern. If your work had been moderated, it would be clear that the work submission matched the booklet, it has nothing to do with you. As I said, if the procedures are above board and transparent, and the work is both internally and externally verified, you won't find teachers trying to beat the system. They can't. If the work isn't there, it isn't there.
katydid wrote: » . Certainly, some FETAC modules allow for flexibility, but it's up to you, the teacher, to decide what format the assessment takes, and it has to be the same for all students. You can't have one student doing it on video and another on paper, that would be unfair on all students, and impossible for you to mark objectively. There is of course room for difference, for example, someone could keep a written work experience diary and a classmate could keep a video one, but the bottom line is that what you would be marking in both cases is how the student analysed the experience, and you would have a clear set of markers as to what points they made, and base your marks on that. And of course it would be up to you to say to the students that you wanted all diaries to be in written form. Flexibility doesn't mean a free for all.
rainbowtrout wrote: » Sorry now katydid, but that's incredibly unprofessional. If students have done work in my third year class and I get a call asking to check that then it needs to be checked. There are no moderation procedures in place for JC coursework, not in my school or any other school I'm familiar with. As for internal and external verification, don't make me laugh. Teachers barely have enough time for everything else going on in the school day let alone meetings on verification. And external verification only exists in subjects where there is an external monitor. Don't you think you are contradicting yourself here?? How can you say that all assessment formats need to be the same and in the next sentence say that it's perfectly acceptable for a written work experience diary and video format??? If it can work for a work experience diary, then it can work for plenty of other assignments, where the module descriptor allows for it.
Marshall Some Second wrote: » Our FETAC assessment guidelines are set at ETB level and unfortunately they are insistent (despite much representation from actual teachers) that work must be accepted right up until the external assessor comes. It is a huge pain in the ass and makes a mockery of the students who bothered to get the work done on time. The modules I teach are also explicit that for each component (skills demo, assignment etc) that a specified list of presentation modes must be accepted. Personally I have found the external assessment process to be very poor. There has *never* been an extern in my centre who is capable of assessing my subject in any meaningful way. At best they are a specialist in the overall field of the major award (but this seems to only be required ever couple of years, so they may know nothing about the area at all) but generally they haven't studied my subject area in much greater depth than the level they are assessing at. I have spoken to these externs and they freely admit they're just stamping pages and checking the evidence fulfils the basic criteria, they don't really know a whole lot about what they're supposed to be verifying. Really, FETAC systems are poor. I just can't accept JC standards dropping so low. I want meaningful CA (not bullsh!t projects on "a science job") with external assessment. I have a lot of experience of assessing my FETAC students. I see absolutely no benefit above that available to my second level students whose work I correct and give feedback on already.
katydid wrote: » That it is not operated properly in some centres doesn't take away from the fact that many FE centres have put a great deal of effort into drawing up and operating proper systems that would pass the scrutiny of any QA survey.
poster2525 wrote: » I agree Kathy - it is not operated properly in some centres - a great deal of effort into drawing up and operating proper systems That's why I favour external marking
ustazjoseph wrote: » "The whole basis of this kind of assessment has to be consistency and fairness. If you are inconsistent - setting a date for an assignment and then bending the rules for certain students, or if you confuse them by offering different assessment methods for the same assignment, the system will not work." of course your right but.... there is not as yet a country wide fair consistent system, FETAC 5 from a very well run training centre ( old FAS) v centralised , is not guaranteed to be the same as fetac 5 same subject in a small adult ed centre. There s lots of emphasis on QA and on having checklists and tons of paperwork but little enough about the actual quality of teaching and learning. i accept some centres might be excellent many are not.
acequion wrote: » You are like a propaganda machine! In fact you're uncannily like our employers! I reckon you don't read beyond the first line of a post before bulldozing in with your own view which you will impose regardless. Just look at how you've hogged the last few pages of this thread! The fact is that I don't agree with you and I resent your dogged imposition of your viewpoint at a time when my profession is under constant attack. No doubt you'll be back hogging page after page with your own entrenched views. Off you go! For those of us who are very tired of you,it looks like time for the "ignore button".
katydid wrote: » T External assessors are not always experts in your subject area, but they have the marking schemes and the evidence in front of them, and have to have some idea of what they are looking at. If there are discrepancies, they would normally come to light.
rainbowtrout wrote: » No they don't, you are supposed to get in an extern from a different specialism every year, so each one gets scrutinised in turn. What that means for my centre in the main is that sometimes we have a sports person in and sometimes a business person in as that is where most of our modules and certificates are based. However until recently I was teaching a programming module. Programming is specialist and with the best will in the world, even with a detailed marking scheme, a person who can't program won't have a bull's notion what they are looking at when they are presented with several pages of code in a programming project. They have no idea what kind of standard it is. Our extern told me the same. She was thorough in the modules she was familiar with/taught herself and queried a few things with the tutors which is a good thing, but told me she knew nothing about programming and just stamped them and signed off.
man_no_plan wrote: » Not forgetting that in most centres plc students are off for work xperience and wind up early befor teh summer allowing TIME for all the marking and moderation. Apeals are to the school!!!! Who re marks them? Only one teacher of Rurais favourite subject mandarin Chinese, appeal is lodged - who looks at it? Same teacher? External teacher? Katydid I appreciate where you are coming from and agree that it could work in theory oaf there was a proper system. The fact is that there is no system, there is no thought, it is make it up as you go along and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it Its not good enough and it will never be good enough.
katydid wrote: » You are supposed to get as many externs as possible; the problem is sourcing them. If your centre operates a policy of having a different kind of extern every year, that must be its own policy. It shows the need for a coordinated system.
katydid wrote: » A few classes off for a week now and then isn't going to give you much time for correcting, and you can't possibly leave it all until May. It needs to be all done by the time the students finish; the only thing left to correct at that stage would be the end of year exams, which you have to dash to correct before the externs come. Appeals are not to the school. They are to FETAC. Once you have submitted your marks in May, you have no more to do with it. And that's as it should be. There IS a system, it DOES work. The hard work that FE centres have put in to developing QA assured systems can be taken on board and used in further developments in other sectors, and even in FE itself.
