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Child Item

Tobacco giant threatens gov with legal action

Kermit.de.frog

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tobacco-giant-issues-legal-threat-over-plain-packaging-1.2106300

One of the world’s largest tobacco firms has told the Government to immediately halt plain packaging legislation in the Dáil or face a High Court claim for damages.

JTI Ireland, owner of the Benson & Hedges and Silk Cut brands, has told Ministers James Reilly and Leo Varadkar that it will take legal action if they fail to promise by Friday that no further steps will be taken to enact the draft law (on plain packaging).

....

The firm’s legal threat to the two Ministers, which was copied to Taoiseach Enda Kenny, was issued a week ago via solicitors Arthur Cox.

Seems heavy.

Won't somebody please think of the children! their profits!

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wp_rathead

Don't be a maybe

TheDoc

Just a little Samba wrote: »

I'd be all for pictures of the effects of obesity and diabetis being put on McDonald's, coca-cola products and on cans of lindin village as well as ban on fast/junk food and alcohol advertising akin to the ban on advertising of tobacco products.

I'm a drinker who likes a burger now and then but is lucky enough to not have a problem with either issue but at the same time there's no harm in educating people without the same luck or knowledge as myself about the real dangers of over consumption.

There there in lies the difference.

The only time alcohol or junk food are an issue is when they are over consumed. Tobacco is negative effects on both the individual and those around them from even irregular use, having a pint after work on a Friday or a burger on a Tuesday doesn't.

Education is surely something that needs to be targeted. I'm out of school not even ten years, and in my final year it was common for teachers to have a sneaky smoke with students in the usual "smoking spots". While it wasn't frequent, it happened. And 10 years is not a lot for a cultural change to take place.

I smoke outside my back garden, never in my house. Even when I go to other peoples houses where it's a smoking environment, I still feel weird and go outside. I don't smoke in my car as I have a child.

I took that lead from my father. He was a heavy smoker, but never smoked around me, or in the car with me, and always went out the back. When he found out I had started smoking, he was pretty clear in that I was stupid, but he gave me one of those fatherly son education sessions ( ironically while we smoked out the back together).

He is off the smokes a good few years now, but never gives me grief. Just every so often saying if I want to quit let him know, he'll help me out etc.

There is simply **** all education in schools. Not once did I get any sort of class, lecture or comment on smoking. Yet I can recall designated curriculum time to tell me how to wash my face properly, and shower. (CSPE or some rubbish subject) Like come on.

And the kicker? We had our first child back there last summer. The girlfriend is a smoker also, and when going through the motions during checkups and then the eventual labour, the amount of pregnant woman smoking was UNREAL. I'd have never believed anyone if they told me how frequently it happens. I was going outside the hospital, down the road and around the corner to the carpark to have a smoke during my time there. But the rake of people smoking outside the hospital, pregnant woman, men around pregnant woman etc.

I don't know if every doctor says the same, but during checkups etc. when my girlfriend was asked about smoking she'd respond she did smoke but had stopped when she found out she was pregnant. The response from two different doctors was along the lines of " Well look if you have one or two every now and then it's fine, but obviously if you are on 20 a day you can't be doing that"

Education is smack in the face obvious to me as the route to tackle this.

TheDoc

Just a little Samba wrote: »

over 5 billion cigarettes sold, but what was the tax take on that?

That's 250 million packets of 20 at approx €10 a pop = approx €2.5billion total spent on smokes.

80% of 2.5billion is, funnily enough, €2billion.

So basically the money raised by taxing tobacco is barely (if even) enough to fund the current cost of treating tobacco related illnesses.

the latest revenue report indicated that illicit tobacco, at 14%, had an estimated value of €200m to the exchequer, so I guess we could work out the overall estimated take from that?

Had a quick glance on revenue and Dept. of Finance but don't know how you go about finding specific tax revenue intake for the previous year. Probably buried in one of the budget docs or exchequer docs ( but their monstrous).

also if I'm not mistaken the current HSE allocated budget is around €12 billion. I'd somehow think if €2 billion was being spent on Tobacco related disease, it would be much more of a thing.

The below was July 2011, where a Junior Minister claimed smoking costs the state €1m a day and would cost €23b over the next decade, however that was then debunked as scaremongering and wildly inaccurate if I remember correctly.

Does fit in with the 2bn figure being mentioned though

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/smoking-costs-the-irish-economy-e1m-a-day-minister-179422-Jul2011/

whisky_galore

TheDoc wrote: »

Education is smack in the face obvious to me as the route to tackle this.

Unless you're a complete dumb ass and an illiterate that can't read a health warning on a packet, the fact that cigarettes are harmful shouldn't escape you.

YFlyer

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know if every doctor says the same, but during checkups etc. when my girlfriend was asked about smoking she'd respond she did smoke but had stopped when she found out she was pregnant. The response from two different doctors was along the lines of " Well look if you have one or two every now and then it's fine, but obviously if you are on 20 a day you can't be doing that"

Education is smack in the face obvious to me as the route to tackle this.

Spanish medical doctors conference was cancelled in Dublin when the smoking ban began here in Ireland.

vienne86

I'd prefer them to ban fags altogether - probably draconian though. By all means put them in horrible unattreactive packaging.

Dravokivich

They can also sell branded cigarette holders.

TheDoc

whisky_galore wrote: »

Unless you're a complete dumb ass and an illiterate that can't read a health warning on a packet, the fact that cigarettes are harmful shouldn't escape you.

Can't remember if it was a University in Galway or Limerick, but they ran an interesting social survey that Newstalk shared there last year on the breakfast show.

They asked 100 smokers on the street if they could recount three health warning texts on tobacco products, and two images portrayed on tobacco boxes.

I won't give false stats, you can google it to find it, but there was a massively high % of smokers who couldn't resite the text warnings. There was a high % of those surveyed who could recount the images.

So the initial find was that the visual images were more impact then the text warnings. I think that's fair enough

The final question was to recount the text warning that accompanied the picture that they remembered. It was single digit % that recounted the text.

Do you read the contents,calorie intake and all that jazz on fizzy drinks, alcohol, food? I can't recall the last time I ever read the nutrition content on anything I bought.

Karl Stein

TheDoc wrote: »

Trademarks and branding is a pretty big deal to any company. It's their imagine, it's their identifying mark.

It's a big deal because branding is marketing and marketing is how you reach consumers. They're fighting it because they're worried that it will hit their bottom line and the health of their bottom line is inversely proportional to public health.

banning a company from using its trademark and logo is a seriously big deal in the corporate world.

I'm sure the government thought about that and weighed up the pros (public health) with the cons.

It is an argument, just because society has moral issues with the company or the product, should not mean that they should sit down and take what's being fed to them.

The public vote in the government to act on behalf of the public - nobody elects the board of directors of a company that deals in a lethal product.

I don't think it's outlandish to suggest there are maybe some ties in relation to the design and marketing of alcohol, similar to tobacco. Although granted Tobacco cant be advertised, or displayed publicly. I'd say the same sort of surveys being done to teens ( in low volumes remembering) would look pretty similar if rolled out in relation to alcohol.

Then any rational person would support it surely?

And again to re-iterate, there is no convincing evidence available that plain package smoking curbs overall smoking, or reduces take up in the teen bracket.

Which brings us back to my original point - why fight it tooth and nail then?

It's basically just someone with what is perceived as " a good idea", so why the same cannot be applied to alcohol, fast food chains etc. ?

It probably could and I've little doubt it will be in time. We're facing an obesity time bomb by all accounts and I'm sure that the proven harm reduction model that was used to reduce the impact of smoking related disease will be rolled out

I'd argue it's because a state wouldn't have the neck to try it,

Right now that's probably correct but in time there may well be inertia behind government measures that will tackle those issues too.

" evil tobacco companies"

Tobacco is a very harmful product and nicotine is incredibly addictive substance that has no nutritional value unlike food. Also, tobacco companies have shown themselves to be ethically bankrupt and without scruples.

Fuck 'em.

TheDoc

vienne86 wrote: »

I'd prefer them to ban fags altogether - probably draconian though. By all means put them in horrible un-attractive packaging.

The immediate problem to the state is are they happy to do without the revenue generated from the companies who supply tobacco here, and the tax revenue from consumers? The short answer is no.

The second problem, is that it sets precedent for the state to ban something where they feel there is enough moral support in order to "serve public health".

Karl Stein

vienne86 wrote: »

I'd prefer them to ban fags altogether

Prohibition doesn't work. Harm reduction does.

My name is URL

hoodwinked wrote: »

the only good thing about that is my eating mc donalds won't affect anyone else but me, where as smokers affect anyone who inhales their second hand smoke.

What about the terrible parents that feed their kids on nothing but processed, sugar filled fast foods? In that case it's not just the 'individual' that's been harmed, it's kids that have no other choice on the matter, and society in general via increased healthcare expenditure

Anyway, my point was just that it's understandable (to me anyway) why tobacco companies would vociferously contest such laws as it's damaging to their brand, just as it would be damaging and contested to the fullest extent if the same law and reasoning behind it was also applied to the likes of McDonalds etc.

whisky_galore

TheDoc wrote: »

Can't remember if it was a University in Galway or Limerick, but they ran an interesting social survey that Newstalk shared there last year on the breakfast show.

They asked 100 smokers on the street if they could recount three health warning texts on tobacco products, and two images portrayed on tobacco boxes.

I won't give false stats, you can google it to find it, but there was a massively high % of smokers who couldn't resite the text warnings. There was a high % of those surveyed who could recount the images.

So the initial find was that the visual images were more impact then the text warnings. I think that's fair enough

The final question was to recount the text warning that accompanied the picture that they remembered. It was single digit % that recounted the text.

Do you read the contents,calorie intake and all that jazz on fizzy drinks, alcohol, food? I can't recall the last time I ever read the nutrition content on anything I bought.

They might not be able to recite a line of text or recall a pic, but surely to god they know intrinsically that cigs aren't perfectly ok?

In fact I do look at calorie contents on occasion, and I've got enough smarts to know that eating chipper food every day of the week will turn me into a fat b*stard. Doesn't take an Einstein to work that out.

Roger Hassenforder

TheDoc wrote: »

There is simply **** all education in schools. Not once did I get any sort of class, lecture or comment on smoking. Yet I can recall designated curriculum time to tell me how to wash my face properly, and shower. (CSPE or some rubbish subject) Like come on.

And the kicker? We had our first child back there last summer. The girlfriend is a smoker also, and when going through the motions during checkups and then the eventual labour, the amount of pregnant woman smoking was UNREAL. I'd have never believed anyone if they told me how frequently it happens. I was going outside the hospital, down the road and around the corner to the carpark to have a smoke during my time there. But the rake of people smoking outside the hospital, pregnant woman, men around pregnant woman etc.

I don't know if every doctor says the same, but during checkups etc. when my girlfriend was asked about smoking she'd respond she did smoke but had stopped when she found out she was pregnant. The response from two different doctors was along the lines of " Well look if you have one or two every now and then it's fine, but obviously if you are on 20 a day you can't be doing that"

Is this some kind of endorsement of smoking, that there's loads of pregnant women smoking around maternity wards? Who advocates for the rights of the foetus not to be born underweight, premature, have a cleft lip, not to die from SIDS, not to be miscarried, not to have cerebral palsy or retardation.

The 2011 'growing up' survey found all kids were aware smoking is bad for you.
So the state failed to educate you with regard to dangers, but now is infringing your rights to smoke, or make it less desirable?

Your kid will no doubt see you smoking, and think it's OK. I'm glad to hear your old man has given then up, hopefully he will be around to see his grandkids grow up, and not dead before 70 with gangrenous legs, lung cancer, COPD etc
as will 50% of smokers. He could well be outlive you based on your support for Philip Morris et al.
For your kids sake, give them up.
They won't thank you, but your wallet will.

TheDoc

Karl Stein wrote: »

Good response, just cutting it out to stop quote spam

My main response would be in relation to what was my opening statement in the thread that no doubt raised some eyebrows.

Banning the use of a trademark or logo on a theoretical/good idea with no concrete evidence or basis of fact, is a dangerous game to play.

I just don't feel it's an acceptable measure to take, and be easily dismissed just because it's a tobacco company.

I don't need to get into hypothetical, but it wouldn't be acceptable for any other company or industry. Sure there are obvious differences and tobacco has pretty obvious issues, but it just feels like an excuse and copout for the state, to avoid having to be innovative, or tackle the issues properly.

al22

Should all juce and sugary drinks be plain or ugly labelled?
Shugar Is Bad To You! ;-)

TheDoc

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Is this some kind of endorsement of smoking, that there's loads of pregnant women smoking around maternity wards? Who advocates for the rights of the foetus not to be born underweight, premature, have a cleft lip, not to die from SIDS, not to be miscarried, not to have cerebral palsy or retardation.

Dear god no!. I was using it as a personal example to outline my point of education. Sorry if it wasn't clear. To re-iterate that example is not to promote smoking and using that as an example of "ah its grand" but to highlight what I feel is a total lack of education and awareness, that a building operating as a maternity hospital had such a high volume of smokers outside, of whom were the mother, or an individual or group smoking in the presence of a pregnant mother.

The 2011 'growing up' survey found all kids were aware smoking is bad for you.
So the state failed to educate you with regard to dangers, but now is infringing your rights to smoke, or make it less desirable?

I'll google for that survey to see volumes. I'm not advocating that at all. I'm not doing the "irish" thing of pointing my finger blaming elsewhere. I made a very conscious choice to smoke at an age where I was fully aware of the dangers and issues, and I went ahead with it.

The state isn't infringing my right to smoke( thats not a real thing), I won't be affected by this, nor was I affected by the smoking ban or annual tax increases, or anything else. I'm an adult, I'm making a conscious decision. I'll stop smoking when a circumstance arises when I want to quit, I'd imagine.

I appreciate that any campaign or initiative is trying to cut off the initial exposure of smoking to teens/youngsters. I just think it's obscure there isn't more targeted stuff.

Your kid will no doubt see you smoking, and think it's OK. I'm glad to hear your old man has given then up, hopefully he will be around to see his grandkids grow up, and not dead before 70 with gangrenous legs, lung cancer, COPD etc
as will 50% of smokers. He could well be outlive you based on your support for Philip Morris et al.
For your kids sake, give them up.
They won't thank you, but your wallet will.

I don't know who Philip Morris is, but hopefully you havn't painted me as some fringe element/group supporter. I'm not a smoking advocate, I just hate these toothless initiatives that get celebrated as some form of progress or achievement.

I also don't think my child will think it's "ok" to smoke. Just like my child won't be of a generation where she needs to question is being a gay couple "ok" or is being a racist "ok". Thankfully a new generation is a chance to shape new cultures and values.

In my immediate circle of friends, I'm one of I think three full time smokers. In a group of 20. That would be the opposite in say my fathers generation. So there is probably real and tangible progress being made in some regards. But there will always be those who make a conscious decision.

I think it's a bit of a myth in recent times of "monkey see monkey do" when it comes to smoking. Sure I saw my Dad smoking. I saw him smoking out the back or out playing golf or whatever, for the guts of 7 years, before I actually had my first cigarette. I think it's disingenuous to a teenager to think they arn't cognitive enough to make a conscious decision, rather than copy a parents choices. Meh, maybe I'm in the minority on that one?

TheDoc

whisky_galore wrote: »

They might not be able to recite a line of text or recall a pic, but surely to god they know intrinsically that cigs aren't perfectly ok?

In fact I do look at calorie contents on occasion, and I've got enough smarts to know that eating chipper food every day of the week will turn me into a fat b*stard. Doesn't take an Einstein to work that out.

I think what is always omitting from this discussion is that people are human beings, with cognitive functions, who make choices.

Like just as an abstract example, over the weekend passed I had a take out pizza and a chipper in the space of three days. I'm fully aware that it's not "good" for me, and that I probably would have been better served eating a healthy meal, but I made a choice to not do so, and order two meals that I wanted.

At some point when you have exhausted all avenues of educating and the likes, you need to accept that there is such thing as choice, and people will make a decision that might be totally illogical to someone else.

I for the life of me will never understand why someone takes Ecstasy, snorts cocaine or injects heroin. I tried a joint when I was about 15 (ironically hadn't smoked at the time) and yeah could see why people did it, but wasn't for me. I never touched of a drug again or even felt the incling to try.

How do you go about reducing the use or purchase or intake of something, illegal or legal, by removing the element of choice?

darlenmol

degrassinoel wrote: »

Stupid idea is stupid - if people want to smoke, a blank ciggie package wont stop them. Sure they cant advertise cigarettes in shops, billboards, magazines etc.. anymore anyway, that's been law for at least 10 years now.

imo it's just FG trying to score votes again with a crappy idea

Not so sure about that. I think the more little things we can do to help people quit the better. They all add up and help tip you over the brink into packing them in. I think it was the case for me when I gave up a year ago.

ThisRegard

Ironically named poster of the year has to go to TheDoc.

And it's laughable that it's everyone's fault but smokers that they smoke.

Roger Hassenforder

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm making a conscious decision. I'll stop smoking when a circumstance arises when I want to quit, I'd imagine.

I just think it's obscure there isn't more targeted stuff.

I just hate these toothless initiatives that get celebrated as some form of progress or achievement...
...
...
...So there is probably real and tangible progress being made in some regards.

I used to smoke, and yea, they were lovely. Especially after a feed, or with booze. But, I'm glad i gave them up. It wasnt I wanted to, but saw my mates friend dying in a hospital (dies the day after I saw her), walked out and tossed 18 Rothmans into a bin.

You're kind of acknowledging these measures are having an effect, less of your peers are smoking. very few of my friends now smoke, those that do are almost pariahs. i think the only thing that could be more targeted is a ban of the damn things! which would be pointless, as people would still smoke, and the tax take would be down.

FloatingVoter

I've been smoking for 25 years. I can blame many things for making me start and continue...most of them self-inflicted. Never in all that time did I smoke one cigarette because the packaging looked cute. Or because I had a crush on the Marlboro Man. Or because Bacall looked cool with a cigarette. Marketing doesn't work.
Apologies to all of you who work in marketing - but I'm guessing you're just collecting the cheques and hoping nobody catches up with you before retirement.
Addictive drugs do work. Have done since the dawn of time. Last time I checked we had a heroin problem.....that's sold in clear translucent baggies.
Irish Government - solve real problems, stop making up new problems with childish "solutions".

baaba maal

As somebody mentioned previously- Arthur Cox are representing the tobacco companies. While it isn't illegal it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that a law firm that has hoovered up millions in fees from government departments and local authorities can waltz into court with their new BFF. And tomorrow they will be representing "us" again. The small coterie of legal and accountancy firms at the heart of Irish governance is the cause of many, many of our current problems.

No offence to The Doc, but your argument doesn't stand up. You claim that education is the key measure to be taken to reduce smoking in spite of the fact that you consciously chose to smoke in spite of knowing the risks (and therefore received enough education on the matter 10 years ago). It isn't the most coherent of arguments.

Whether the current measures work or not remains to be seen, but it is certainly worth a try. As an indication of the tobacco industry, two brief illustrations.
In 1983, I, as a 14 year old in a school uniform, was walking down Marlborough St in Dublin when I was approached by a woman who had a clipboard. She asked her few questions and then handed me a special three pack of Johnny Blue. Not a marketing strategy likely to be deployed in this part of world nowadays. However....
In 2002 I was in Senegal in west Africa. Not only are cigarettes marketed on billboards and in the general media, but I was again offered free cigarettes (Marlboro Red), this time at a concert.
The point is, the tobacco industry pushes back as hard as it can and will do all in it's power to undo progressive legislation. Tobacco isn't a 'normal' product (in the same way as alcohol and firearms). It's sale should be carefully controlled the removal of as much of the branding as possible is a legitimate tool by the government. It is telling that I can recall both cigarette brand names after all this time. I should point out that I was not a smoker in 1983, was a smoker in 2002 and quit two years after that.

My name is URL

As somebody mentioned previously- Arthur Cox are representing the tobacco companies. While it isn't illegal it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that a law firm that has hoovered up millions in fees from government departments and local authorities can waltz into court with their new BFF.

Bill O'Herlihy lobbies for the tobacco industry here too doesn't he?

conorh91

On the one hand I can understand the tobacco companies' frustration. Do we want to ban cigarettes or not? Piss or get off the pot.

The tobacco company in question paid €600 million in tax in Ireland in 2013. We're happy to appropriate some of their profits, whilst simultaneously claiming to be repulsed by their business activities.

On the other hand, the idea of a tobacco company seeking to impede the work of Parliament is disquieting, and seems to have little chance of success.

Similar legal arguments have already been dismissed in the Australian courts, and there are convincing reasons for doubting that the Irish courts would agree with JLT's claims.

It would set a disturbing precedent if JLT succeeded, which it probably will not.

ThisRegard

end of the road wrote: »

fair play to them. this legislation is a waste of time.

You bring madness into every thread you post in.

end of the road

ThisRegard wrote: »

You bring madness into every thread you post in.

doesn't change the fact the legislation is a waste of time. people smoke because they want to and like it. then they become addicted

listermint

conorh91 wrote: »

On the one hand I can understand the tobacco companies' frustration. Do we want to ban cigarettes or not? Piss or get off the pot.

The tobacco company in question paid €600 million in tax in Ireland in 2013. We're happy to appropriate some of their profits, whilst simultaneously claiming to be repulsed by their business activities.

On the other hand, the idea of a tobacco company seeking to impede the work of Parliament is disquieting, and seems to have little chance of success.

Similar legal arguments have already been dismissed in the Australian courts, and there are convincing reasons for doubting that the Irish courts would agree with JLT's claims.

It would set a disturbing precedent if JLT succeeded, which it probably will not.

I wish folks would stop talking about the revenue argument we spend ten times that on tobacco related illness.

ThisRegard

end of the road wrote: »

doesn't change the fact the legislation is a waste of time. people smoke because they want to and like it. then they become addicted

So no harm in passing it so is there?

My name is URL

listermint wrote: »

I wish folks would stop talking about the revenue argument we spend ten times that on tobacco related illness.

Do you have a source that backs that up? It's an argument often turned out but I've genuinely never seen conclusive evidence of it. Couldn't it also be argued that smokers die younger and therefor cost the state less in healthcare in the long-run?

And couldn't similar arguments be used to force other businesses to not rely on brand recognition etc? If fast food chains, drinks companies etc were forced to drop branding on products and premises would it not also save lives and reduce healthcare costs?

The fact is smokers are an easy target for gathering revenue and for politicians to bring in populist legislation against. Look at how the government went soft and backed away from banning alcohol sponsorship in sports. Alcohol is far more of a blight on this country than tobacco, both in terms of individual well-being and cost to society. Yet most people opposed the idea of banning drinks companies from advertising in and sponsoring sports.