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Dublin-Cork Railway Line

Amtmann

Discuss.

Are any improvements to enable greater speed planned? I took the train for the first time in over a year about two weeks ago and while I enjoyed the train (it was comfortable and clean), the train seemed to go a little slower than I'd expected. So what works are planned for this line, if any?

And, will they ever refurbish Kent Station?

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SpaceTime

Main reason is to reduce the issues with getting power from the wires to the train. Increase the voltage 20X and you decrease the current by the same factor.

This means fewer, less complex pantographs, smaller, lighter contact wires and way more power.

Using AC means you don't need complex AC to DC conversion and can just can just use normal power at 50Hz straight from the Eirgrid/ESB network.

Older trains used DC because modern variable frequency / variable speed AC drives weren't cost effective.
A modern train uses solid state rectifiers other gear that basically allows it to send different frequencies of power to the motors.

That technology became cheap and reliable and is even used by modern washing machines with "silent" drives.

It's also made things like hybrid car power systems possible.

You would possibly be able to order AC/DC trains for the Northern line and 25kV 50Hz for everything else.

dowlingm

Refitting to 25kV might work if all replacement DARTs, such as when the 8100s are replaced, are specified as dual voltage. Immediately though unconverted 85xx trains would be precluded from working on rewired areas. 25kV transformers are not small or light so it's unlikely that refitting the 8500s would be easy if even possible.

Switching voltages isn't a minor thing either, even though it is widely done. When Amtrak introduced the new Siemens Sprinter locomotives it took them a while to work out the bugs in switching from legacy New York Metro North area 12kV to more recently installed 25kV east of New Haven towards Boston.

EDIT: one of the main reasons for working with high voltages is that you need way fewer substations and thus grid connections over the same distance.

SpaceTime

The issue is that the DART fleet is the largest set of stock IE have. So the relatively cost of retrofitting 52+ trains for 25kV vs purchasing new trains that can handle 25kV and 1500V would have to be weighed up.

The Cork-Dublin line and maybe Dublin Belfast might be logical lines to electrify. By international standards they're not very busy and you could be taking about a combined fleet of 16 trains or so.

Due to massive improvements in solid state power systems and the large amount of space on trains, this isn't generally much of a challenge.

Most long distance electric trains handle more than one voltage / frequency.

Lenton Lane

dowlingm wrote: »

Plenty of European trains can handle 1.5kV DC/25kV AC. Mostly locomotives but the French SNCF B82500 class is an EMU example - in fact it can do diesel too! 25kV would be tough to convert because you need bigger wire clearances from structures so much existing DART stuff might have to be ripped/replaced.

The insulators are also a key part of conversion. Generally the structures on the Dart are well constructed and I wouldn't expect that there would be a huge amount of re-engineering needed. Clearly the knitting has to be replaced but I would expect some refurbishment at this stage.

While dual voltage stock is also possible it makes more economic sense to reengineer the full network to 25kv ac if the Belfast line is electrified and Dart Underground comes into existence. The ultimate aim should be to have a standard electrification system rather than trying to reverse engineer to ensure legacy stock is catered for.

Back in BR days the Manchester suburban lines were converted from 1500v DC to 25kv AC without the need to rip up and massively re-engineer structures.

Irish railways are historically plagued with short term thinking to save money which leads to bigger and more expensive resolutions at a later date.

SpaceTime

Most countries have a mixture of voltage on their rail networks.

It's not a significant technical challenge especially as any electric intercity trains won't be running at full speed across the DART area anyway. 1500V DC is a bit limited for high power draws.

25kV AC is the norm for long distance though for new construction.

dowlingm

Plenty of European trains can handle 1.5kV DC/25kV AC. Mostly locomotives but the French SNCF B82500 class is an EMU example - in fact it can do diesel too! 25kV would be tough to convert because you need bigger wire clearances from structures so much existing DART stuff might have to be ripped/replaced.

SpaceTime

Even some metros like Madrid converted to overhead power.

Lenton Lane

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think third rail would possibly even be illegal under modern electrical safety law. They're "grandfathered" in some networks because the cost of replacing legacy systems would be astronomical and it would be highly disruptive.

You'll never see new 3rd.rail.

Third Rail isn't an option for long distance railways and it is as other posters have said a legacy system from the past. There is associated with 3rd rail DC systems the need to build a chain of substations along with the electrified rails.

The real issue for Irish Rail is that the Dart isn't standard 25kV AC either. It's 1500v DC Overhead which isn't suitable for Long Distance trains and generally not standard these days. There may possibly be a need in the future to convert the Dart system to 25kV AC, as and when the current trains need to be replaced.

SpaceTime

I think third rail would possibly even be illegal under modern electrical safety law. They're "grandfathered" in some networks because the cost of replacing legacy systems would be astronomical and it would be highly disruptive.

You'll never see new 3rd.rail.

L1011

stehyl15 wrote: »

Only the dart has overhead power the cork line could use third rail as it is not electrified and third rail is cheaper to install

Third rail isn't cheaper, and its not really suitable for long-distance use either. There is a reason that catenary has long since replaced it outside of metro systems and the former Southern BR region.

MrMorooka

Third rail systems will not be used for a new build these days, it just won't. It's only used for legacy reasons- eventually the extensive network in the UK will be changed over. From what I gather, it is a very inefficient system that struggles to provide enough power for modern trains with A/C and fancy electronics etc. There's also the problems associated with having a high power conducting rail on the ground, for trespassers and staff on the line etc.

cgcsb

stehyl15 wrote: »

Only the dart has overhead power the cork line could use third rail as it is not electrified and third rail is cheaper to install

3rd rail is more expensive generally, it was used in London to save space in 19th century underground tunnels. Dublin-Kildare will need overhead to accommodate DART anyway, so no point switching to 3rd rail.

GerardKeating

stehyl15 wrote: »

Only the dart has overhead power the cork line could use third rail as it is not electrified and third rail is cheaper to install

Actually, it would be more expensive.

Pablo Escobar

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

This improvement is aimed at improving the attractiveness of local commuter rail first and foremost IMO. It'll have less of a psychological impact on people travelling further.

stehyl15

cgcsb wrote: »

we already use overhead power, why now switch to third rail?

Only the dart has overhead power the cork line could use third rail as it is not electrified and third rail is cheaper to install

cgcsb

we already use overhead power, why now switch to third rail?

stehyl15

The Phoenix park tummel should be reopened to passenger traffic so trains can go to conolly which is far more central than Hueston. The line should be electrified and they could always use a third rail it seems to work in the UK why shouldn't it work in Ireland

Idbatterim

I agree crc, the gridlock here has returned and is only going to get worse, they need DU badly. The thing is, if people dont have a car, they may not have a problem with multiple connections, but for those that do, some may contemplate taking public transport, but I weigh it up, too much messing around and Ill stay in my comfortable car that I pay a good chunk in motor tax for every year and I am sure there are a lot like me...

crc

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

I think your point is nearly right, but let me elaborate. Lots of people certainly do want to go to the city centre, but we all know that moving Heuston 3km to the east is a bit of a non-runner. My view is that people want to get to all parts of Dublin, including the city centre, but also the airport, Ballsbridge, Sandyford, East Wall, heck even Maynooth! DART Underground is the only thing that would reliably, quickly and efficiently move large numbers of people around the city. It's an expensive project, but in my view offers the best return especially in terms of route options.

Idbatterim

Cities are not built around train stations.

I'm not not going to take a train to Dublin because it's a few kilometres west of O'Connell Street.

if I want to go into the centre, travel time is roughly the same, I dont have to mess around with changing to luas or another bus and the bus is quite a bit cheaper as is usually the case, I take the bus every time...

donvito99

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

Idbatterim wrote: »

after you get out, walk to the luas stop, wait on the luas and then get off at your chosen stop...

Cities are not built around train stations.

I'm not not going to take a train to Dublin because it's a few kilometres west of O'Connell Street.

L1011

Amsterdam. There's not many more though...

SpaceTime

Idbatterim wrote: »

after you get out, walk to the luas stop, wait on the luas and then get off at your chosen stop...

That's still approximately 7 minutes.

I honestly can't remember it ever taking me more than 10 minutes to get to Jervis / O'Connell Street area.

I also can't think of very many cities anywhere in the world where the main train station's right in the main street either.

Idbatterim

It's about a 7 minute trip to the City Centre from Heuston and it's also not necessarily where most people want to go either.

after you get out, walk to the luas stop, wait on the luas and then get off at your chosen stop...

SpaceTime

It's about a 7 minute trip to the City Centre from Heuston and it's also not necessarily where most people want to go either.

Idbatterim

If we had the money, we could extend the "4 track" Kildare route project into DART underground, and effectively move Heuston to Saint Stephens Green.

Then (if Metro North was also a 4 track DART) have the Belfast trains serve the Airport before arriving in Stephens Green.

Its not the money, its the will in my opinion. They will have a nice giveaway budget this year, well over a billion no doubt, there is the money. Infrastructure here in general seems to be a do as little as you can get away with job...

GerardKeating

Idbatterim wrote: »

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

If we had the money, we could extend the "4 track" Kildare route project into DART underground, and effectively move Heuston to Saint Stephens Green.

Then (if Metro North was also a 4 track DART) have the Belfast trains serve the Airport before arriving in Stephens Green.

Idbatterim

the problem is, you cant get from Cork city centre into the actual centre of Dublin, where most will want to go, without getting off the train and making another connection... The train being able to go from centre to actual centre, would improve its attractiveness IMO...

cgcsb

Some welcome announcements, years late but to be welcomed none the less.

Pete_Cavan

Two articles in the Irish Times today;

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/3m-cork-railway-station-upgrade-set-to-in-crease-numbers-using-mainline-and-commuter-services-1.2105054

I am not familiar with Kent Station or the previous redevelopment plans but I think it is fair to say that they have been scaled back a lot, although this is probably for the better.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/planned-upgrade-on-cork-dublin-line-will-cut-travel-time-say-iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-1.2105076

Any improvements to increase the speed of trains is to be welcomed but this quote is disappointing when read in conjunction with post #19 in this thread;

Mr Kenny confirmed that a €10 million upgrade of an 80km stretch of mainline track between Portlaoise in Co Laois and Hazelhatch in Co Kildare beginning in March will cut Cork-Dublin travel times by 15 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes.

Is the KPR2 expected to deliver any significant time savings for intercity and commuter services on their approach to the city?