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Another attack on free speech by Islamic fundamentalists.

Its becoming clear that unless the Islamic community themselves take stronger action against the extremists the Islamic community at large will become more and more marginalised.

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Letree

Manic Moran wrote: »

Look at the post you quoted. North Africa. Libya, Chad, Sudan, Nigeria etc. Please explain to me how the actions of both Bushes in particular resulted in the situation which now prevails.

Islamic extremism has exploded since the bush's invaded Iraq. Wars may have been there already but al qaeda and their sister groups have really taken off since bush invaded Iraq. Making those disputed worse.

DeadHand

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I can't explain it any more than you can. I don't know by how much it is declining any more than do you, all figures are estimates.

The fella on the plane claimed the actual population was higher than London, though I doubt it. Still, I'm not as blinded by sectarianism and bigotry as some not to take his story at face value.

There you go again, when your argument fails just shout "sectarian bigot" at me in the hope the nonsense you post does not continue to get exposed for what it is.

Again, how do you explain Iran's dwindling Jewish population?

DeadHand

Egginacup wrote: »

So that being the case, why is Turkey a Muslim country where alcohol is freely available? Where any girl can lounge in the sun in a bikini? Turkey doesn't TRY to do anything regarding religion whether it be Islam or any other faith.
Turkey did NOT reject Islam as part of their constitution. So stop telling lies. If there is one thing I abhor more that an ignorant man it's a liar.

In fairness, Turkey used to be a rare example of a sane Muslim country.

But, lately, Islam has been allowed to creep back into their law making.

Egginacup

Zack Morris wrote: »

No, it's not. Muslims are not a race. Islam is an ideology. Racism doesn't not apply to adherents of an ideology.

Communism is also an ideology. Is despising communists racism? Of course not, that would be very silly.

Bigotry is probably the term you are seeking. It's not racist to hate Downs Syndrome children or cripples. A lot of people profess such a disdain but they aren't obviously "racist", just bigoted.

DavidRamsay99

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there a problem with the concept? Obviously dictatorship didn't go over massively well for Libya, Chad, Sudan, etc, if it resulted in civil war which, as best I can determine, seemed to result without any particular involvement by the US. Or are you so determined to blame Bush that you will accuse them of evil with proof being a people fighting against their dictator?

There is one significant problem with regards those nations that you can blame the US for, and, frankly, almost every other 'democratic' country, and that's 'not caring enough.' You can't go around expecting a country to become economically and politically viable after decades of a single authoritarian rule without some significant help. Sometimes it happens, Tunisia seems to have done well enough, for example, but it can't be expected. Yet no 'democratic' country seems to have really cared a damn to put any particular effort into the matters, and those countries in turmoil were left to their own chaos. For that, you can blame everywhere from Pennsylvania Avenue to Kildare Street.

For almost the past 15 years the anti-war left have been shrill about leave the Middle East alone. Well the Middle East is quite capable of destroying itself with out Western interference.

You can't protest with the slogan "NOT IN MY NAME" and then complain when you have 0% control over events.

ISIS is slaughtering thousands precisely because they know the West will not put troops on the ground to destroy them.

What good is modern weapons and modern armies if no government or public in the West is prepared to lose the lives of their soldiers?

The terrorist know this and are capitalizing on it with gusto.

DeadHand

Egginacup wrote: »

Bigotry is probably the term you are seeking. It's not racist to hate Downs Syndrome children or cripples. A lot of people profess such a disdain but they aren't obviously "racist", just bigoted.

So, are people who express disdain for Christianity and highlight the obvious, negative effect it has had on humanity also "bigots"?

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

Islam is NOT an ideology. It is a set of beliefs. Communism is NOT an ideology. It is an economic model. Fascism is NOT an ideology. It is a socio-political governance model.

But in your dreadful attempt at equating the aforementioned I notice you conveniently omit colonialism, imperialism and racism in your list of "isms".

My understanding of an ideology and most people would agree is a set of beliefs (sound familiar) which is popular and used for political or financial gain.

It is completely irrelevant if its political, economic or anything else.

There's all sorts of ideology, for example catholic ideology.

How on earth can you say fascism is not an ideology?

DeadHand

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

For almost the past 15 years the anti-war left have been shrill about leave the Middle East alone. Well the Middle East is quite capable of destroying itself with out Western interference.

You can't protest with the slogan "NOT IN MY NAME" and then complain when you have 0% control over events.

ISIS is slaughtering thousands precisely because they know the West will not put troops on the ground to destroy them.

What good is modern weapons and modern armies if no government or public in the West is prepared to lose the lives of their soldiers?

The terrorist know this and are capitalizing on it with gusto.

In fairness, Western troops in the Middle East will not solve anything but make the situation worse.

Yet, no Muslim power has yet moved in a serious way to destroy ISIS.

One can only assume this is because the majority in those countries sympathise with or tacitly support their actions and aims.

Shurimgreat

Egginacup wrote: »

Are you saying that lo and behold Turkey was an atheist land until recently?

Are you really taking the piss?

So that being the case, why is Turkey a Muslim country where alcohol is freely available? Where any girl can lounge in the sun in a bikini? Turkey doesn't TRY to do anything regarding religion whether it be Islam or any other faith.
Turkey did NOT reject Islam as part of their constitution. So stop telling lies. If there is one thing I abhor more that an ignorant man it's a liar.

Misrepresenting my posts much?

Point out where I said Turkey was an atheist country?

Saying this country or that is atheist is one of your wilder claims.

Your posts are bizzare. Go back and read the contexts of my posts including the posts I was responding to. And then apologise.

I will give you a clue. Modern Turkey was founded as a secular democracy. You get it now?

Defender OF Faith

DeadHand wrote: »

In fairness, Western troops in the Middle East will not solve anything but make the situation worse.

Yet, no Muslim power has yet moved in a serious way to destroy ISIS.

One can only assume this is because the majority in those countries sympathise with or tacitly support their actions and aims.

Really? there are 9 Muslim states in the Coalition against ISIS, the Muslim world is currently a developing world and do not have the weapons nor the finance to respond against ISIS in a large scale, these 9 countries are probably the only power in the region.

Cuban Pete

Irish terrorists kill innocent people - "no, those are just extremists, they don't represent all Irish people".

Muslim terrorists kill innocent people - "all Muslims are terrorists, we have to run them out of Europe".

Stunning lack of self-awareness in these threads, considering Irish history, folks.

DavidRamsay99

DeadHand wrote: »

In fairness, Western troops in the Middle East will not solve anything but make the situation worse.

They can shoot ISIS terrorists can't they?

When you have mice in your house you lay poison and set traps and get a pet cat.

The way to take out ISIS is to send in troops and mow them down.

Shurimgreat

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Irish terrorists kill innocent people - "no, those are just extremists, they don't represent all Irish people".

Muslim terrorists kill innocent people - "all Muslims are terrorists, we have to run them out of Europe".

Stunning lack of self-awareness in these threads, considering Irish history, folks.

Evil mainly comes from following a particular ideology.

People who planted bombs in the north thought they were doing "the right thing" in terms of their political ideology.

Ideologies when people are brainwashed enough have a morality and a law unto themselves.

As for saying all muslims should be deported I don't think many were saying that. However western european values have to be respected.

Zack Morris

Egginacup wrote: »

Bigotry is probably the term you are seeking. It's not racist to hate Downs Syndrome children or cripples. A lot of people profess such a disdain but they aren't obviously "racist", just bigoted.

I'm not looking for any term, I am dismissing people's stupid belief that Muslims are a race.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideology

noun ide·ol·o·gy \ˌī-dē-ˈä-lə-jē, ˌi-\ : the set of ideas and beliefs of a group or political party

Is it "healthy" or "healthful"?
Watch and find out! »

plural ide·ol·o·gies
Full Definition of IDEOLOGY

1
: visionary theorizing

2
a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

Clearly, Islam and communism, by definition, are ideologies.

alwald

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Irish terrorists kill innocent people - "no, those are just extremists, they don't represent all Irish people".

Muslim terrorists kill innocent people - "all Muslims are terrorists, we have to run them out of Europe".

Stunning lack of self-awareness in these threads, considering Irish history, folks.

It sums up 50% of the posts and 80% of the posters, to you sir I take my hat off.

Egginacup

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

To be fair the Jews that remain would damn well want to love the country they live in, considering the number of them in the country has fallen from about 80,000 before the revolution to just under 10,000 today.

Can you explain why these numbers have fallen?
Are you trying to say that the numbers have dropped because of persecution and that those who remain are bullied into professing love of the homeland?

Is that what you are saying?

Can you be more clear please in your assertions?

Shurimgreat

alwald wrote: »

It sums up 50% of the posts and 80% of the posters, to you sir I take my hat off.

Except it doesn't.

Manic Moran

Letree wrote: »

Islamic extremism has exploded since the bush's invaded Iraq. Wars may have been there already but al qaeda and their sister groups have really taken off since bush invaded Iraq. Making those disputed worse.

I suggest you're reaching, there. Religious extremism, being as it is, religious and not politically motivated, is liable to exist regardless. Boko Haram's attacks in Nigeria, for example, are not particularly related to American action. Similarly, the current violence in Libya or Syria (Going out of Africa momentarily) would be about as bad even without the presence of the religiously extremist groups given the variety of groups already pitted against each other.

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

For almost the past 15 years the anti-war left have been shrill about leave the Middle East alone. Well the Middle East is quite capable of destroying itself with out Western interference.

You can't protest with the slogan "NOT IN MY NAME" and then complain when you have 0% control over events.

ISIS is slaughtering thousands precisely because they know the West will not put troops on the ground to destroy them.

What good is modern weapons and modern armies if no government or public in the West is prepared to lose the lives of their soldiers?

The terrorist know this and are capitalizing on it with gusto.

Different issue. There are ways to help which don't require troops, but usually troops are the only personnel that any government is willing to risk. The US is no better than any other nation at this, which is why soldiers were found teaching farming technique, policing technique, community government technique, etc. There probably isn't a country in Europe which is incapable of providing capable (and inclusional) governmental and organisational advice to a nascent government without worrying about being on the combat front lines. Indeed, given the country's history, one may have thought that Ireland was supposed to be rather capable at such things.

DeadHand

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Really? there are 9 Muslim states in the Coalition against ISIS, the Muslim world is currently a developing world and do not have the weapons nor the finance to respond against ISIS in a large scale, these 9 countries are probably the only power in the region.

Right so ISIS are developed enough to do all the expanding and ethnic/religious cleansing they do yet the rest of the Muslim world is "developing" so unable to stop them?

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Turkey are all neighbouring powers with more than enough military muscle to crush ISIS in a week if they wanted to. Yet, why don't they?

There are obviously political and strategic concerns at play too, for example NATO wouldn't tolerate an Iranian occupation of Iraq, but it seems to me there is a lot of tacit support and tolerance of ISIS in the Muslim world in general.

If a fundamentalist Christian group gained power in central Europe today and immediately began slaughtering religious and sexually minorities it would be swiftly removed by surrounding powers.

Yet, no such virtue from Muslim populations or powers. More Muslim British men are fighting for ISIS today than are serving in the British army.

The Kurds, who are themselves Muslim, fight manfully to prevent their own cleansing and the sexual enslavement of their female population but with how much support from the Arab or Muslim worlds? They rely on Western aid and Western aerial intervention to help stave off their own holocaust.

The Backwards Man

DeadHand wrote: »

There you go again, when your argument fails just shout "sectarian bigot" at me in the hope the nonsense you post does not continue to get exposed for what it is.

Again, how do you explain Iran's dwindling Jewish population?

Has my argument failed? I hadn't noticed. I didn't even realise I was in an argument

And if you bothered to read my post I answered your question.

alwald

DeadHand wrote: »

but it seems to me there is a lot of tacit support and tolerance of ISIS in the Muslim world in general.

This is just your feeling, you are wrong, fortunately the situation is different in reality.

DeadHand

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Has my argument failed? I hadn't noticed. I didn't even realise I was in an argument

And if you bothered to read my post I answered your question.

You answered nothing.

You just implied I was a racist bigot because my opinion is uncomfortable to you.

Again, how do you explain Iran's vanishing Jewish population? A disappearance that is confirmed by the Iranian government's own census?

Are they fleeing because they are overwhelmed by the kindness they are shown official and by the general population?

DeadHand

alwald wrote: »

This is just your feeling, you are wrong, fortunately the situation is different in reality.

So why does ISIS exist?

How long would a similar, rogue theocracy last in Europe?

alwald

DeadHand wrote: »

So why does ISIS exist?

How long would a similar, rogue theocracy last in Europe?

Google it, there are tons of articles about it.

By the way where are the links about jews being persecuted in Arab/Muslim countries?

Defender OF Faith

DeadHand wrote: »

So why does ISIS exist?

How long would a similar, rogue theocracy last in Europe?

Taliban even after a 13 year war waged against it by the US and Western super-powers continue to exist, completely eradicating these groups is not an easy task even for European super-powers. ISIS for your information was previously operating in Iraq as Al-Qaeda in Iraq so it had existed long before today, however the Syrian Civil war and Iraq de-stabilisation fuelled its growth into IS.Iraq before becoming ISIS

BuilderPlumber

alwald wrote: »

What worries me the most is the poverty in those countries, lack of water, food and medicines...add to that the contrast and the difference in lifestyle between them and the EU....there are too many factors that can indeed lead to a complete chaos, why the allies that struck Libya to get rid of Gaddafi didn't have a plan for after, or at least help the army to regain control of the entire country?

I believe that it will be Africa moreso than the Middle East where future extremism and problems will mostly stem from. For way too long, this, the poorest of our continents, has been forgotten about. Let's take a look:

The north of the continent has fared poorly in recent years with violence, terrorism, civil war affecting places like Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Mali and Chad. Others like Niger, Mauritania, etc. have also been affected and remain dirt poor. Al Qaeda have dominated many places and its local branch AQIM is one of the most violent and prolific. The Arab/African divide is also very strongly felt in places like Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad, Sudan, etc. with one or the other being treated as 2nd class and as slaves. Yes, slavery is almost legal in some of these to this day!

West Africa has also had its fair share of problems. Nigeria has had the same problems as its northern neighbours. Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone and Liberia are also failed states. If war and corruption was not enough, Ebola has also had a massive affect. Other countries like Ghana and Benin are stable and are the exception to the rule.

Moving further down, we come to the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Angola, and Mozambique, all impoverished by war. Perhaps, South Africa is the best country in Africa but even here, violent crime is a massive headache.

Could an ultra nationalist, 'pan African', 'Islamic' superstate emerge in Africa? Yes is the answer and Libya with its oil reserves and the fanatic zeal of rebels in it could well aspire to be the Islamic State of Africa. Ironically, a lot of their aspirations for this would be borrowed from their old enemy Gaddafi!! Enter the likes of Omar al Bashir of the Islamic Republic of Sudan (a smiling dictator who looks like a nice man but who runs a nasty regime and is a wellknown supporter of al Qaeda in the past) to give it support and perhaps form a coalition with it and god only knows what would happen. AQIM, Islamic Republic of Sudan, al Shabaab and Boko Haram could all join forces and may also do a deal with the violent Ugandan/Congolese/Central African Lord's Resistance Army (a 'Christian' terrorist group equivalent in style to AQ or ISIS lead by Joseph Kony with sympathies for 'Islamic' extremism too) as well. Africa is the one to watch imo and the world does need to be more humane and we need to stop seeing Africa and other places as resource we can plunder.

Egginacup

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Of course they are bad guys. I'm old enough to have heard this kind of equivocation for the IRA, in fact as an old school leftist I engaged in them myself. No more.

You keep engaging in your own bad arguments. People who don't want to understand killings of a comic are Bush supporters. Nope. I hate Bush.

However these guys are not attacking the neo-conservatives who started the war. They are not attacking in the country which started the war. They are not attacking the soldiers who fought the war, the journalists who egged on the war, the intellectuals who gave support to the war.

They are attacking in France, home of the despised ( by neo-cons) cheese eating surrender monkeys, and Denmark. They are attacking caricaturists of the prophet Mohammed because that's the nature of the religion, evidenced by Saudi Arabia's recent flogging sentence on the atheist journalist. They are attacking Jews for reasons of anti-semitism.

This is clear to all but the morally supine.

Well that was a plausible attempt but consequently meaningless and furthermore incongruent.

It doesn't matter WHERE revenge attacks perpetrated by people are conducted. You can (in fact you've attempted to so do) rise above the petty "kill 'em all" gibberish that pervades this thread with a few glib assertions that I'm trying to paint the herd as followers of Bush, et al. Your retort that you hate Bush is supposed to qualify as some kind of neutralisation of that.

People of a radical Islam bent (if indeed it is radical) are attacking and killing people, and they weren't doing this 50 or 40 or 30 or even 20 years ago. If I hear some low-rent pundit come on here and say "WHAT ABOUT EL-AL, LARNACA, blah blah?", I'll say "Go back to kindergarten".

This is happening for a reason and people like you have no interest in finding out what that reason is.

Eugene Norman

alwald wrote: »

Google it, there are tons of articles about it.

By the way where are the links about jews being persecuted in Arab/Muslim countries?

You can't Google yourself? Jesus wept.

Look the populations in these countries havd collapsed. The people left for a reason. Stop justifying the anti-semitism you are obviously so supportive off.

( not just Jews. Christians as well. Today ISIS killed 20 Copts in Egypt).

The Backwards Man

DeadHand wrote: »

You answered nothing.

You just implied I was a racist bigot because my opinion is uncomfortable to you.

Again, how do you explain Iran's vanishing Jewish population? A disappearance that is confirmed by the Iranian government's own census?

Are they fleeing because they are overwhelmed by the kindness they are shown official and by the general population?

Yeah, it's because the Muslims are ethnically cleansing them and every follower of Islam must be wiped off the face of the Earth before its too late.

It's the only answer you are interested in isn't it?

You know, if you weren't so antagonistic in your posting people might be interested in having a discourse with you, you might even find that some of the people you are constantly denigrating, shouting down and generally bullying possibly even have *some* of the same views on Islam as you do.

But you don't care about that, do you? It's as much about getting one over on the 'liberals', ie anyone who doesn't have the same extremist opinions as you, as it is about categorising all followers of a particular faith as radicalised fundementalists.

DeadHand

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Taliban even after a 13 year war waged against it by the US and Western super-powers continue to exist, completely eradicating these groups is not an easy task even for European super-powers. ISIS for your information was previously operating in Iraq as Al-Qaeda in Iraq so it had existed long before today, however the Syrian Civil war and Iraq de-stabilisation fuelled its growth into IS.Iraq before becoming ISIS

You're being fairly incoherent now, I'm sorry to say, since the USA is obviously the only western superpower to make a statement containing the term "US and Western super-powers" is, quite frankly, a nonsense.

So, if Islam is this virtuous force for good in the world, why don't Islamic nations with the power to do so do anything or only make token attempts to remove this obvious evil on their own doorsteps?