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Protesters for Transgender rights outside Dáil

MakeEmLaugh

Over 200 protesters were outside Leinster House today, where the Gender Recognition Bill is being discussed. The protesters are demanding changes to Bill, such as the requirement that a person wishing to change the gender on their birth certificate be assessed by a medical practitioner.

Transgender people are probably the most discriminated against in the world today. Their identity is an almost constant target of derision and outright hatred, more so than gay, lesbian or bisexual people.

I fully support the right of transgender people to have the gender they identify as recognised on any current legal documents, such as driving licences and passports.

I do not see why they should have their birth certificates changed, however. A birth certificate is an historic document of what you are declared at birth. If you are declared male at birth, then your birth cert should reflect that.

Ireland has only been independent since December 1922. If we tried to go back and alter any official documents from before then which said we were part of the United Kingdom, wouldn't it seem wrong?

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emmetlego

To quote Anton Savage….

Yis are all QWAAAARRREEESSS!

Relax, trying to inject humor...

bb1234567

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's not great for us, every trans person I know has stories of being mistreated, finding it difficult to find work, transitioning while working and ending up with crappy bosses making things difficult, getting looks on the street (at best) or outright abuse, quite a few people I know have been assaulted (including me.) But... The vast majority of people have been nothing but lovely and supporting. The people in my local have seen me at every step of my transition and are fully supportive of me, my friends are amazing, most people on the street don't even notice you, I've never had hassle by any people in shops whether I'm buying booze or bras. But the few assholes really do make things difficult, because you have the constant threat of someone making a scene, or coming at you. Most people really do have a live and let live attitude, and even if they realise I'm trans they're respectful because they know this is a personal thing I'm doing because it's important for my life, it's who I am. It's just the minority of bad apples who spoil things.

I even know trans people who have moved from other countries to Ireland who say they could never imagine receiving as much acceptance from their peers in their home country as they do in Ireland. Ireland can be pretty good when it wants to be, but there's always a few idiots.

This made me really happy to hear! Im actually delighted haha I thought even in Ireland life was really really awful for trans people. I don't know any trans people personally so thank you for sharing. And I wish you the best of luck with your transitioning.

Lyaiera

bb1234567 wrote: »

This made me really happy to hear! Im actually delighted haha I thought even in Ireland life was really really awful for trans people. I don't know any trans people personally so thank you for sharing. And I wish you the best of luck with your transitioning.

It can be awful at times, but it's not as awful as not living your life the way you want.

My story isn't universal though. There's a lot of trans people who don't have it as easy as me. There's a lot of people who really fear what reaction society will have. There's a lot of people who have lost all their family, all their friends, and their job. When I talk about the minority of people making comments, being abusive and attacking you it's because it's happened to me. I've been lucky enough that I can pick myself up, with the help of some of my family, my friends and quite a few trips to the pub for a sympathetic ear and a beer. But there's a lot of people who fear they couldn't conquer those issues, and stay in the closet (for want of a better word.) There's a lot of people who transition who can't deal with those people and end up isolated and alone.

Resilience is a big buzzword in mental health, the ability to deal with the things that will inevitably try to drag you down. A lot of people fear they don't have that resilience, and a lot of people find that the setbacks knock them hugely. I try my best to stay positive, but the times like when my father has hung up on me saying he doesn't know me have of course had an effect. This is the reality, but to trans people I'd say this reality where you get to live your life is better than the one where you don't.

And often the reality for trans people is that you have to do things that put you at risk, that make you feel vulnerable and that are a challenge. I saw a dress I liked on sale in Debenhams two weeks ago, I went back this week and bought it, and I wore it out the other night (my first time wearing a dress as I'm normally a jeans and top girl.) That was a challenge, but I needed the strength to say "fcuk you" to any who would give me crap (although say it silently, saying it out loud can get you punched in the head.) The ability to psyche yourself up to know you are just as entitled to wear nice clothes out on a night out as anyone else, and anyone who gives you hassle for that isn't worth your time. But the threat of those people, or of family giving you hassle can be really hard to deal with. And hopefully legislation like this, the trans people on boards speaking out, the support groups around the country, TENI, Senators and TDs speaking up, and newspapers writing articles does give the many frightened trans people the strength to live their life as is best for them.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

As for transexual folks, I say good luck to them and whatever get's one through life as a more content human being

Or helps you get over a genuine ailment. We have learned little - but enough - about transgenderment that we know they do not just get through life. They get through their day.

Holsten

I would fully support whatever they want, for the simple reason it doesn't affect me in any way, and giving them what they want should not cause any harm to anyone, and give them some form of happiness.

If they are born male and feel they are female, why should their birth cert not reflect this?

If I am born Steven and live 15 years as a male, yet then choose to live the rest of my live as Stephanie, should my birth cert not reflect my actual life?

Wibbs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Cisgendered and transgendered are not really correct terminology. Its the equivalent of saying homosexualised. Cisgnender and transgender are better terms to use.

... and here we go... Make sure folks that you're using the "correct" terminology. Do you ever get tried of being so right on, being so "correct"(tries hard to avoid using the P word), being so primed for spotting offence?

Deleted User wrote:

Or helps you get over a genuine ailment. We have learned little - but enough - about transgenderment that we know they do not just get through life. They get through their day.

No doubt T, but that way of thinking all too common these days on a myriad of topics is arguably just another way of bringing more and more people into the circle of perpetual victims of life and of themselves.

Links234

Wibbs wrote: »

TBH when I see or hear the word cisgender in any discussion it's at that point my eyes glaze over and I back away to talk with other people. Ditto for "gender normative" and such newspeak. Because experience has told me that much of what will follow is nearly always an ever increasing circle jerk of nonsense and precious snowflakism, with a healthy side order of offence seeking at any questioning of the position, even if meant in good faith.

Eh Wibbs, cisgender is a clinical term, it means the opposite of transgender and you'd find it in a lot of medical or scientific papers. It's derived from the latin, where trans means across or on the other side, cis means on the same side of. You see the same thing elsewhere, such as cis and trans isomers in chemistry and so forth.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

victims of life

And the alternative does not beat thinking about

What we have learned about things like TGism at the level of the brain though is remarkable. To think that a mere "wrong" flip of a gene could cause someone to live a life of pain and confusion is something we are only learning now as a species. The tongue in cheek Ahours joke would be to explore situational comedy of cave men wanting to be cave women.

but the reality we have learned is remarkable.

bjork

Deleted User wrote: »

And the alternative does not beat thinking about

What we have learned about things like TGism at the level of the brain though is remarkable. To think that a mere "wrong" flip of a gene could cause someone to live a life of pain and confusion is something we are only learning now as a species. The tongue in cheek Ahours joke would be to explore situational comedy of cave men wanting to be cave women.

but the reality we have learned is remarkable.

How much of it is real and how much of it is perceived? The discrimination, I mean

[Deleted User]

bjork wrote: »

How much of it is real and how much of it is perceived? The discrimination, I mean

More than you would think I guess. What we have learned from disambiguation for example would condition you to second guess any preconception you might have of someone who comes before you with a feeling that they are not what they feel they should be. Imagine people who hold up their arm to you and declare to you with totally cogent clarity that they can not be happy unless you cut their limb off them.

ngcxt6

Like most discussions about transgender issues online and in real life, I expect this to devolve into nothing but subtle abuse, insults and discrimination.

Mostly it's from cisgender people who outright refuse to accept trans peoples identity and who are totally insecure with the term cisgender, the abuse I see on a daily basis is awful.

Could somebody link the TENI video titled "Gender Recognition Matters 2015". It's a fantastic video and everybody should watch it if you want to have an ounce of understanding about what these people are fighting for.

I've seen even gay people outright discriminate and abuse transgender people, it's really sickening to see such behaviour and ignorance.

Wibbs

bjork wrote: »

How much of it is real and how much of it is perceived? The discrimination, I mean

Oh the discrimination is very real, the diagnosis I'd be a little less sure of.

taxAHcruel wrote:

More than you would think I guess. What we have learned from disambiguation for example would condition you to second guess any preconception you might have of someone who comes before you with a feeling that they are not what they feel they should be. Imagine people who hold up their arm to you and declare to you with totally cogent clarity that they can not be happy unless you cut their limb off them.

And in that case T it would be seen as a mental illness, a clear pathology and no way in hell would a doctor agree to amputate their limb on such a declaration and subsequent diagnosis. Even if the person was suicidal.

Wibbs

ngcxt6 wrote: »

Mostly it's from cisgender people who outright refuse to accept trans peoples identity and who are totally insecure with the term cisgender

What nonsense is this? It's got feck all to do with "insecurity", that go to defence/offence of the Oprah generation. Indeed one could easily argue it's far more to to with transgender people's "insecurities' and feeling not "normal". Which is well understandable.

Lyaiera

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh the discrimination is very real, the diagnosis I'd be a little less sure of.

Why would you be less sure of the diagnosis? Trans people have existed throughout history. If someone presents as transgender, receives treatment (psychological, social, medical and legal transition) and their life improves what more do you need? There's an issue, the issue is addressed, the issue goes away. This has been recognised by the vast majority of medical practitioners and researchers, and has been proven to work. If you're looking for proof like an x-ray then you must have a lot of issues with psychology and psychiatry in general.

Wibbs

Links234 wrote: »

Eh Wibbs, cisgender is a clinical term, it means the opposite of transgender and you'd find it in a lot of medical or scientific papers. It's derived from the latin, where trans means across or on the other side, cis means on the same side of. You see the same thing elsewhere, such as cis and trans isomers in chemistry and so forth.

You're kinda proving my point here. Newspeak for "normal" and "not so normal". Both say exactly the same thing, but the "cis/trans" is looking to normalise both. Which again is understandable, neither should be a value judgement, especially in the face of abuse, but it does start to get a bit wearing and over sensitive after a while.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

And in that case T it would be seen as a mental illness, a clear pathology

We are learning otherwise. There is a genuine reason for people feeling this way. Alien Limb syndrome is an extreme case but a poignant one. We are learning that the way the brain views the world is through many inputs - and for most of us those inputs match with our internal wiring - but what we learn from phantom limbs - alien limbs - transgenders - synesthesia - and much more - is that we have many words for one condition - a simple mis-match between neurons and reality.

It is hard to classify this as an illness or a pathogen or a delusion or anything else. It is a fundamental discord between reality and your brains representation of reality. It must be horrific to live with. But - and I say this with regret not glee - it is a fascination and a joy to work with. The human brain is a pandoras box of surprise. And working with it will genuinely undermine any preconception you might have - even preconceptions about your preconceptions

Wibbs

Lyaiera wrote: »

Why would you be less sure of the diagnosis? Trans people have existed throughout history. If someone presents as transgender, receives treatment (psychological, social, medical and legal transition) and their life improves what more do you need? There's an issue, the issue is addressed, the issue goes away. This has been recognised by the vast majority of medical practitioners and researchers, and has been proven to work. If you're looking for proof like an x-ray then you must have a lot of issues with psychology and psychiatry in general.

Again let's take taxAHcruel's example: "What we have learned from disambiguation for example would condition you to second guess any preconception you might have of someone who comes before you with a feeling that they are not what they feel they should be. Imagine people who hold up their arm to you and declare to you with totally cogent clarity that they can not be happy unless you cut their limb off them". Chances are high they'd be diagnosed as mentally ill with body dysmorphic disorder and no way would they be encouraged to have an amputation.

I am not saying all cases of transgender is a body dysmorphic disorder, but I would argue that some are. Transgender folks have one of the highest rates of suicide ideation of any group, pre and post transition.

As for issues with psychology and psychiatry? I have much with the former and less with the latter. Those areas of medicine have one of the highest "WTF were we thinking" in hindsight of any medical area of study and treatment. And that ain't some hippie scientology nonsense, that's looking at the clinical stuff over time.

Lyaiera

Wibbs wrote: »

You're kinda proving my point here. Newspeak for "normal" and "not so normal". Both say exactly the same thing, but the "cis/trans" is looking to normalise both. Which again is understandable, neither should be a value judgement, especially in the face of abuse, but it does start to get a bit wearing and over sensitive after a while.

You're comparing scientific and medical language with Orwellian dystopian oppression.

Deleted User wrote: »

We are learning otherwise. There is a genuine reason for people feeling this way. Alien Limb syndrome is an extreme case but a poignant one. We are learning that the way the brain views the world is through many inputs - and for most of us those inputs match with our internal wiring - but what we learn from phantom limbs - alien limbs - transgenders - synesthesia - and much more - is that we have many words for one condition - a simple mis-match between neurons and reality.

It is hard to classify this as an illness or a pathogen or a delusion or anything else. It is a fundamental discord between reality and your brains representation of reality. It must be horrific to live with. But - and I say this with regret not glee - it is a fascination and a joy to work with. The human brain is a pandoras box of surprise. And working with it will genuinely undermine any preconception you might have - even preconceptions about your preconceptions

That would be the research done on the cortical homunculus. Which is very interesting, but with phantom limbs, anorexia, etc. the cortical homunculus is where it ends. Trans people (both pre and post hormone treatment) have been shown to have other neurological structures similar to cis people of the same gender in other areas of the brain. This has been shown with "live" scans but most of the knowledge comes from autopsies. Similarly, implicit association tests have shown that trans children have the same results as cis children of the same gender.

Lyaiera

Wibbs wrote: »

Again let's take taxAHcruel's example: "What we have learned from disambiguation for example would condition you to second guess any preconception you might have of someone who comes before you with a feeling that they are not what they feel they should be. Imagine people who hold up their arm to you and declare to you with totally cogent clarity that they can not be happy unless you cut their limb off them". Chances are high they'd be diagnosed as mentally ill with body dysmorphic disorder and no way would they be encouraged to have an amputation.

I am not saying all cases of transgender is a body dysmorphic disorder, but I would argue that some are. Transgender folks have one of the highest rates of suicide ideation of any group, pre and post transition.

As for issues with psychology and psychiatry? I have much with the former and less with the latter. Those areas of medicine have one of the highest "WTF were we thinking" in hindsight of any medical area of study and treatment. And that ain't some hippie scientology nonsense, that's looking at the clinical stuff over time.

I don't see the point of all this? What are you proposing? Most trans people seek medical treatment, and are treated by the medical establishment. Quality of life improves dramatically for people once they've received treatment (even more so if their social setting is supportive.) Both psychology and psychiatry supports the idea that trans people need medical treatment. I really don't know why you're trying to get at.

Wibbs

Lyaiera wrote: »

You're comparing scientific and medical language with Orwellian dystopian oppression.

Yep. That was my intention.

Lyaiera

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep. That was my intention.

I can't understand how anyone could be so anti-intellectual and pro-ignorance.

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

TBH when I see or hear the word cisgender in any discussion it's at that point my eyes glaze over and I back away to talk with other people. Ditto for "gender normative" and such newspeak. Because experience has told me that much of what will follow is nearly always an ever increasing circle jerk of nonsense and precious snowflakism, with a healthy side order of offence seeking at any questioning of the position, even if meant in good faith.

As for transexual folks, I say good luck to them and whatever get's one through life as a more content human being and I think Lyaiera's take is the right one. Day to day life the person's record reflect their wishes and gender alignment, but with the original record available should it be required down the line.

You need to head off and do a semester of gender studies

[Deleted User]

Well that is what I get for keeping my discourse too lay.

But the simple fact we can now HAVE this conversation leaves stains in my underwear of excitement. We literally had no idea for so long. We actually have an avenue of explanation and validation of human experience where once we had pure and simple derision. Taking this conversation to the general public is clearly not going to be served well by using language like I tried to use - and people just as schooled as me tried to use ever better

- but the fact we can even consider having this conversation and mean it - is a shining light that i would have doubted even this time 5 years ago.

Wibbs

suicide_circus wrote: »

You need to head off and do a semester of gender studies

Muahhahahahhaha, eh... no. *facepalm*. "Gender studies" the Chicken Little of the soft, nay flaccid "sciences", ideal for the easy of thinking.

Annasopra

Wibbs wrote: »

Muahhahahahhaha, eh... no. *facepalm*. "Gender studies" the Chicken Little of the soft, nay flaccid "sciences", ideal for the easy of thinking.

I doubt he was serious.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that is what I get for keeping my discourse too lay.

Pretentious moi? OK then you go ahead and step up and get real, less "lay", whatever that means in your mind. Nobody's stopping you. Open your non lay opinion up to wider debate and see where that leads. Pseuds really tick me off and boy you have much of the scent of one on a few levels. So as I say let is all be blessed by your true wisdom.

Wibbs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I doubt he was serious.

These days one can never be sure.

EG

Lyaiera wrote: »

I can't understand how anyone could be so anti-intellectual and pro-ignorance.

bodice ripper

Wibbs wrote: »

Muahhahahahhaha, eh... no. *facepalm*. "Gender studies" the Chicken Little of the soft, nay flaccid "sciences", ideal for the easy of thinking.

I think you meant hard of thinking.

Wibbs

bodice ripper wrote: »

I think you meant hard of thinking.

Nope, I meant easy of thinking. Easy in thinking what they're told. The hard of thinking are often more reachable.

bodice ripper

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, I meant easy of thinking. Easy in thinking what they're told. The hard of thinking are often more reachable.

That's a bit of weird language use right there.