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Child Item

Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Timistry

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1022/482077-public-health-alcohol-bill/

Multiple excise increases in the last few Budgets and now this... Ireland is already one of the most expensive countries in Europe for alcohol. Like many, I can appreciate the negative impacts that it has on society but these nanny state measures just will not work

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Herb Powell

squonk wrote: »

I'd imagine students and younger people, might resort to home brewing which, let's be fair, is far worse from a health perspective when it goes wrong.

?????

Not much that can go wrong. Worst that'll happen is you might get a bad case of the ****s from live yeast.

slayerking

Herb Powell wrote: »

?????

Not much that can go wrong. Worst that'll happen is you might get a bad case of the ****s from live yeast.

Sher a few bad pints of Guinness can do that.

webpal

anyone any idea what this mean, we'll say, for a box of heineken 20*330ml bottles, i think these are €26.99 in tesco but are rarely that price, they're usually on offer anywhere between €15-24. what would one expect to pay?

squonk

Well you can have explosions. People scalding themselves with the hot mash. I'd also think that if you're not as hygenic as you could be that the tesulting brew might not be the best for you. Hell though, even if all goes well you could end up with booze of any strength. I suppose the bottom line is that I'm not a brewer but I know that my first one or two batches won't be great. I'm not strapped for cash in the student sense either so if I did brew a dodgy batch I'd be able to say laugh it off and flush it down the jacks rather than attempt to drink it because there wasn't money for another batch!

Spanish Eyes

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So long as any alcoholic drink exceeds the minimum unit price for the units it contains then they are under no obligation to increase their prices. However in reality the MUP will now be the floor, the new zero. Gradually (if not immediately) all prices will rise accordingly.

There is no doubt about that, as long as the entry level products stay in the market.

What is a "premium product" going to be anymore if all prices are relatively equal?

So as you say, since there will be a floor for cheaper products, the higher end products will have to increase in reality to preserve their reputation.

So, the reality is, that those who are not being targeted really, will be penalised by having to pay more for a good product.

What a great little country this is!

Paz-CCFC

squonk wrote: »

Well you can have explosions.

Not if you go by the priming instructions on any brew kit or brewing website. If you do overprime, it's likely not going to be to the extent of the bottle exploding like a frag grenade. It'll most likely be a crack in the weak point of the bottle, which releases the pressure and the beer leaks out.

People scalding themselves with the hot mash.

Something which could just as easily happen with boiling potatoes or vegetables.

I'd also think that if you're not as hygenic as you could be that the tesulting brew might not be the best for you.

Alcohol is a good cleansing agent and kills a lot of micro-organisms. Generally, the ill effects from lack of hygiene tend to be sh*te beer.

Hell though, even if all goes well you could end up with booze of any strength.

Most starter beer sets come with a hydrometer that allows you to easily measure the abv. I'd say that homebrewers have a better idea of the abv of their beer than consumers do of the commercial stuff, given the abv can legally differ by 0.5% of what's indicated on the bottle/can.

I suppose the bottom line is that I'm not a brewer but I know that my first one or two batches won't be great. I'm not strapped for cash in the student sense either so if I did brew a dodgy batch I'd be able to say laugh it off and flush it down the jacks rather than attempt to drink it because there wasn't money for another batch!

Drinking a sh*te homebrew batch wouldn't be much different from drinking a sh*te commercial beer. For starting brewers, it's actually fairly hard to get a very bad (or a very good) batch from kit brewing. Because it's pretty much pre-made, there's not a lot of variation you can do. What you're going to end up with is grand. And probably better than the likes of Heineken and Guinness.

The perpetuated ignorance and myths around homebrewing really is staggering. Could you imagine if they were applied to homecooking? "Sure, you could easily make something lethal. If you boil an egg, it could easily explode in your face. You have no way to gauge if the meat is really edible, it could easily be raw. If it's unhygienic, you might kill yourself. You could scald yourself boiling the potatoes. Therefore, we shouldn't 'resort' to homecooking, as it can be terrible from a health perspective."

listermint

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is no doubt about that, as long as the entry level products stay in the market.

What is a "premium product" going to be anymore if all prices are relatively equal?

So as you say, since there will be a floor for cheaper products, the higher end products will have to increase in reality to preserve their reputation.

So, the reality is, that those who are not being targeted really, will be penalised by having to pay more for the same product.

What a great little country this is!

tidied that up there for ya

Saruman

Sounds like squonk is mixing up homebrew beer/wine with distilling. Brewing is as safe as any kitchen activity.
Distillation is another story entirely and is very dangerous, both from equipment failure and then the finished product can be dangerous. Stories of people going blind are well founded with home distillation not understanding methanol. It's also illegal.

Spanish Eyes

listermint wrote: »

tidied that up there for ya

Wash yer mouth out you!!

(username).

Thanks for the cleanup.

A Disgrace

webpal wrote: »

anyone any idea what this mean, we'll say, for a box of heineken 20*330ml bottles, i think these are €26.99 in tesco but are rarely that price, they're usually on offer anywhere between €15-24. what would one expect to pay?

Roughly €33/34 minimum

webpal

A Disgrace wrote: »

Roughly €33/34 minimum

Seriously? So now we can't even drink at home, country is f*****d. Is this the plan? To make everyone go back to the pub, drink more so excise income is increased? Have to admit I haven't had bottle since New Years eve and I dont actually miss it, sign of things to come methinks.

rubadub

The issue of calories has not been mentioned. This will mean importers will not have to either pay a premium for overlabelled products, or do it themselves. Producers here will have to do the same or change their packaging. I would also worry it could be used as a method of enforcing regional selling. e.g. heineken must be pissed off that my local eurospar used to sell 5% scottish market heineken cheaper than the 4.3% one beside it.

Heineken could simply refuse to declare the calorie content of their scottish market cans, and therefore possibly make them illegal to sell here. Not sure if a third party could have them tested themselves.

And why just calories, why not treat it like any other drink here an have full nutritional breakdown and ingredients listed? I would also like to see the calories per unit alcohol listed, for easier comparison. I would have a much greater interest in seeing the % sugar (unfermented) in drinks than calories.

Saruman wrote: »

Brewing is as safe as any kitchen activity.
Distillation is another story entirely and is very dangerous, both from equipment failure and then the finished product can be dangerous. Stories of people going blind are well founded with home distillation not understanding methanol. It's also illegal.

Jaysus, and I was going to post saying the myths about brewing haven't a patch on the myths about distillation, and you just trotted some of them out.

If you can find a single instance of somebody going blind from drinking home distilled alcohol from fermented wash then I would love to see it. I have searched many times over several years. This has come up in numerous threads and nobody could ever find a single case.

There are PLENTY of people going blind and dying from drinking illegal alcohol, you will certainly find hundreds of links to that. But this is invariably criminal gangs selling industrial alcohols as drinking alcohol.

It would take great time & careful effort to extract the methanol required to kill or blind yourself from homebrewed alcohols, far easier ways to blind yourself if that is your goal.

I consider barbequeing chicken a more risky process than distillation.

In many more enlightened countries home distillation is illegal. The perpetuation of myths surrounding it is doing nothing to help the possibility of it happening here.

Gloomtastic!

rubadub wrote: »

The issue of calories has not been mentioned. This will mean importers will not have to either pay a premium for overlabelled products, or do it themselves. Producers here will have to do the same or change their packaging. I would also worry it could be used as a method of enforcing regional selling. e.g. heineken must be pissed off that my local eurospar used to sell 5% scottish market heineken cheaper than the 4.3% one beside it.

Heineken could simply refuse to declare the calorie content of their scottish market cans, and therefore possibly make them illegal to sell here. Not sure if a third party could have them tested themselves.

And why just calories, why not treat it like any other drink here an have full nutritional breakdown and ingredients listed? I would also like to see the calories per unit alcohol listed, for easier comparison. I would have a much greater interest in seeing the % sugar (unfermented) in drinks than calories.

Jaysus, and I was going to post saying the myths about brewing haven't a patch on the myths about distillation, and you just trotted some of them out.

If you can find a single instance of somebody going blind from drinking home distilled alcohol from fermented wash then I would love to see it. I have searched many times over several years. This has come up in numerous threads and nobody could ever find a single case.

There are PLENTY of people going blind and dying from drinking illegal alcohol, you will certainly find hundreds of links to that. But this is invariably criminal gangs selling industrial alcohols as drinking alcohol.

It would take great time & careful effort to extract the methanol required to kill or blind yourself from homebrewed alcohols, far easier ways to blind yourself if that is your goal.

I consider barbequeing chicken a more risky process than distillation.

In many more enlightened countries home distillation is illegal. The perpetuation of myths surrounding it is doing nothing to help the possibility of it happening here.

Will pubs have to list the calorie content of all the alcohol they sell? It will be interesting to see if they get away with it, unlike every restaurant and cafè will have to do.....

BuilderPlumber

I rarely go to pubs these days to be honest. Like most of Ireland, there seems to be a rural v urban divide. I live in Cork and go to the city and also to Limerick where the pubs are ok weekdays and good weekends. I prefer the country pubs but of late they are totally dead. Many in the East Cork villages now are closed often wicked early weekends, at 10 or 11 sometimes on nights when CT is 12.30. Because? No one goes to them. I had a thread about this last year.

Now, pubs do need to update, be more lively and less negative. The whinging publican on about how everything is against him from drink driving, smoking bans, cheap supermarket drinks and even taxis into the city while he himself is doing nothing to attract anyone into his pub is all too often what I see. Sure, all the above and the recession and the culture of home drinking have all played against pubs but a lot has to do with the publican too.

A pub is a place that sells expensive drink. A pub that offers nothing except that and a grumbling publican and 2 know it alls at the counter offers nothing at all. Give me a night in with my own drink and a Love/Hate or other such DVD instead anyday.

cruhoortwunk

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Now, pubs do need to update, be more lively and less negative. The whinging publican on about how everything is against him from drink driving, smoking bans, cheap supermarket drinks and even taxis into the city while he himself is doing nothing to attract anyone into his pub is all too often what I see. Sure, all the above and the recession and the culture of home drinking have all played against pubs but a lot has to do with the publican too.

The publicans that are doing well at the moment are the ones lowering prices (with daily drinks specials and promos), broadening range (beyond diageo and Heineken taps) or coming up with new ideas to draw us in(board games or cask nights instead of Sky on the tv).
The rest of the dinosaurs don't move with the times. They resort to lobbying of the government to make the competition (off-licenses and supermarkets) more expensive, lobbying for earlier closing times for off-licenses, blocking the move to allow cafes to serve alcohol.
In other countries, imaginative publicans come up with promos and ideas to give them an advantage. They don't resort to the shíte that is happening here. I was in New York recently, and one place had a free pizza with every pint, most of the rest have happy hours between 4 and 6. I know happy hour isn't allowed here, but there's nothing to stop them knocking 30c off their prices or having a euro off a certain brew each day.
They remind me of the record industry too. They won't adopt to the new world we live in, they just stay static and try to hamper the competition.

BuilderPlumber

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

The publicans that are doing well at the moment are the ones lowering prices (with daily drinks specials and promos), broadening range (beyond diageo and Heineken taps) or coming up with new ideas to draw us in(board games or cask nights instead of Sky on the tv).
The rest of the dinosaurs don't move with the times. They resort to lobbying of the government to make the competition (off-licenses and supermarkets) more expensive, lobbying for earlier closing times for off-licenses, blocking the move to allow cafes to serve alcohol.
In other countries, imaginative publicans come up with promos and ideas to give them an advantage. They don't resort to the shíte that is happening here. I was in New York recently, and one place had a free pizza with every pint, most of the rest have happy hours between 4 and 6. I know happy hour isn't allowed here, but there's nothing to stop them knocking 30c off their prices or having a euro off a certain brew each day.
They remind me of the record industry too. They won't adopt to the new world we live in, they just stay static and try to hamper the competition.

I think a lot of Irish publicans are poor businesspeople plain and simple. They inherited the pubs often from their parents and their place has apart from TV, redecoration, and the like not changed at all. The attitude is the same. The so-called 'Traditional Irish Pub' has to be defended at all costs afterall!! The TIP is usually stereotypically male dominated, full of so-called 'characters' (smart men and drunks more like it!) and has nothing artistic about it bar one of these characters singing some vulgar song or cracking some vulgar joke. Very clannish and inward looking. The publican is indifferent to the whole thing and his wife and family help out rather reluctantly. Typical fare served are Guinness, Heineken, Carlsberg and the usually range of spirits and possibly 1/4 bottle wines if you are lucky!

ted1

Could off licences and supermarkets sell vouchers that are redeemable in the store.
E.g buy a 10 euro voucher for x label products for only 5 euro ,

L1011

ted1 wrote: »

Could off licences and supermarkets sell vouchers that are redeemable in the store.
E.g buy a 10 euro voucher for x label products for only 5 euro ,

The state is likely to ban all promotional sales as with tobacco and infant formula. Can't use vouchers, loyalty points, etc.

BeerNut

L1011 wrote: »

The state is likely to ban all promotional sales as with tobacco and infant formula. Can't use vouchers, loyalty points, etc.

I haven't heard anything about that lately, but it is already allowed for under the 2008 Intoxicating Liquor Act, 16(6)(a). Varadkar can make it so any time he likes.

L1011

BeerNut wrote: »

I haven't heard anything about that lately, but it is already allowed for under the 2008 Intoxicating Liquor Act, 16(6)(a). Varadkar can make it so any time he likes.

Never noticed that. Remind me to empty the OBrien's card...

squonk

When is this going to end, or when are publicans going to wake up and smell the coffee? There are only so many times you can introduce minimum pricing or up that limit before it becomes unfeasable. Nowadays I'll have a few drinks at home maybe on a Thursday or Friday if the mood takes me. Enjoying some Mikkeller last night it occured tome that even if they do raise prices, I'll still stay on my couch enjoying my craft and watching a movie because I'm only a minute from my bed at the end of the night, I haven't loud music blaring forcing me to drink to ignore it and I don't have to make my way home afterwards either by taxi or walking through ****e weather.

I find it hard to believe that the publicans are pressurising the govt. to protect their trade when it's that self same body that landed some of the biggest body blows to the trade in the form of tougher drink driving laws. I have no issue with the drink driving laws and they're sensible and there for the greater good. The issue though is that now many rural pubs are empty because customers can't go out, have a few drinks and drive home. Now, a responsible publican or group in an area would club together and organise a bus to collect customers and drop them a mile or two up the road. We're not talking a party bus here but something cheap and functional for short trips. Failing that they could organise preferential rates as a group with local taxi companies so that I could say get 1-2 miles home for 2-3 quid, or perhaps 4. Better having regular paying customers than the odd customer paying more.

Nobody does this however. I've heard of a few publicans who are decent and do care about their customers and will drop them home if needs be. They're very much in the minority. The vast majority just want your money and will fill you with drink as long as that money crosses the counter. They'll then kick you out, lock the door after you and how you get home or don't get home is your problem.

I see the pub at this point as a place to go the odd time to catch up with friends for an hour or two. I wouldn't be caught dead in one the rest of the time. There's nothing there for me in most pubs. Personally speaking Craft pubs are a bit better in that there's a variety of beer to try and they're usually lively. Most other establishments just remind me of hell's waiting room and I certainly wouldn't hang out there!

Saruman

rubadub wrote: »

If you can find a single instance of somebody going blind from drinking home distilled alcohol from fermented wash then I would love to see it. .

Presumably these people went blind before they died

Many here did go blind, the ones that didn't die.

These are extreme cases of course and likely the methanol was added intentionally to up ABV rather than simply not removed as part of the process.

I was speaking from just hearsay though having never distilled or looked in to doing so myself.

BuilderPlumber

Saruman wrote: »

Presumably these people went blind before they died

Many here did go blind, the ones that didn't die.

These are extreme cases of course and likely the methanol was added intentionally to up ABV rather than simply not removed as part of the process.

I was speaking from just hearsay though having never distilled or looked in to doing so myself.

Home made booze has become common in many places and for some reason, a lot of it is quite dangerous stuff. I have had homemade wine here and it is grand.

But homemade booze in Iran (which bans alcohol for the poor Muslim population: the rich, regime members, regime supporters and non-Muslims can drink it though) and Saudi Arabia (which bans alcohol for everyone except the royal family) has caused people to go blind. Poor Iranians can buy pure safe alcohol legally for medical reasons but it common for them to make booze with it at home.

matrim

TheBeerNut had raised an interesting point on Twitter and beoir. Because the legislation covers sale or supply, it would be technically illegal to give tasters or have a meet the brewer day with free samples

Carawaystick

matrim wrote: »

TheBeerNut had raised an interesting point on Twitter and beoir. Because the legislation covers sale or supply, it would be technically illegal to give tasters or have a meet the brewer day with free samples

Or have Mass, unless the priest bought his own wine, and didn't share.

BuilderPlumber

With a general election coming up next year, I wonder will this stupidity even see the light of day? Hopefully not. Any minister who support raising prices in any good or service or who proposes legislation that damages funding and business is seriously out of step with the Irish people.

Gloomtastic!

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

With a general election coming up next year, I wonder will this stupidity even see the light of day? Hopefully not. Any minister who support raising prices in any good or service or who proposes legislation that damages funding and business is seriously out of step with the Irish people.

Hmmmm.
Minimum pricing for alcohol was promoted in FG's manifesto for the last election to help save the pub.
Leo Varadker has proven to be a very popular opponent to take over the leadership of FG.
Leo Varadker introduces minimum pricing for alcohol on medical grounds.
Hmmmmm indeed! :rolleyes:

syklops

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

With a general election coming up next year, I wonder will this stupidity even see the light of day? Hopefully not. Any minister who support raising prices in any good or service or who proposes legislation that damages funding and business is seriously out of step with the Irish people.

I like Varadkar, but if this gets signed into law, I will never vote for him again. I think more people need to say this out loud. The proposed increases do not target "cheap alcohol", and it certainly doesnt target the "below cost selling" of alcohol. It just arbitrarily makes alcohol more expensive to buy. And when you make the cheaper alcohol more expensive, you make everything more expensive because more premium brands don't want to be associated with the cheaper brands.

The thing is I am seeing zero resistance to this in the media and the rest of the country seems unaware of its possibility. If like me, you drink 8 cans of Czech or Polish imported beer a week, you will pay more than 300 euros extra next year. Thats more than what the water charges will be. So where is the resistance? Where is the outrage? For a party that is intending to actually run in the general election next year I think it is a daft idea to even consider. That it might get signed into law worries me as to how in touch FG actually are.

There doesn't even seem to be opposition in the opposition. If Sinn Fein and I were to agree on one issue, surely this is the one, but I've heard not a peep out of them.

Blut2

The fact that the price rise will only go to line the profits of Tesco / Diageo is an awful result too - more money being funneled out of the country.

At least if it was just an excise rise of 20c per unit of alcohol or similar the state coffers would benefit from the price increase.

rubadub

Saruman wrote: »

Presumably these people went blind before they died

Many here did go blind, the ones that didn't die.

These are extreme cases of course and likely the methanol was added intentionally to up ABV rather than simply not removed as part of the process.

Just so people are 100% clear those links are NOT about people going blind or dying from drinking homemade alcohol. The poster could obviously NOT find what I asked for and just confirmed what I already said

rubadub wrote: »

If you can find a single instance of somebody going blind from drinking home distilled alcohol from fermented wash then I would love to see it. I have searched many times over several years. This has come up in numerous threads and nobody could ever find a single case.

There are PLENTY of people going blind and dying from drinking illegal alcohol, you will certainly find hundreds of links to that. But this is invariably criminal gangs selling industrial alcohols as drinking alcohol.

Blut2 wrote: »

At least if it was just an excise rise of 20c per unit of alcohol or similar the state coffers would benefit from the price increase.

That would mean an increase on all prices which the publicans do not want. There needs to be more of a fuss made of this, many people I speak to are under the impression that the government will be getting a lot more revenue.