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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

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MrJones1973

Await events. Ultimately its the members who will hold firm or cave in. But this time there is no Trokia. Though Never underestimate the spinelessness of your fellow teacher or gross indifference.

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Await events. Ultimately its the members who will hold firm or cave in. But this time there is no Trokia. Though Never underestimate the spinelessness of your fellow teacher or gross indifference.

I was assuming that they were going to the executive / standing committees with some sort of a proposal. Am I right?

deiseindublin

That what I was wondering too mnp.

MrJones1973

That would be normal procedure . If a proposal comes it will probably reach the proletariat for a vote after mid term earliest. So much remains unknown ie posts Resource s etc

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

That would be normal procedure . If a proposal comes it will probably reach the proletariat for a vote after mid term earliest. So much remains unknown ie posts Resource s etc

So there's nothing yet then?

acequion

At our branch meeting during the week the news was that there is no budging from the unions on teacher assessment which is very good news. However it seems that the minister can't "lose face" so we may have to do something like tick a few boxes or some such which wouldn't be the end of the world.

It's still all to play for and I've the fingers tightly crossed.

deiseindublin

Here's hoping acequion.

rainbowtrout

acequion wrote: »

At our branch meeting during the week the news was that there is no budging from the unions on teacher assessment which is very good news. However it seems that the minister can't "lose face" so we may have to do something like tick a few boxes or some such which wouldn't be the end of the world.

It's still all to play for and I've the fingers tightly crossed.

It depends on what those tick boxes are.

km79

the silence over the weekend is very very worrying
a deal is being done no doubt about it.......Pat King will be on his way soon probably to a State board........whose interests will take priority in any new deal?
I'm very very very worried

endakenny

km79 wrote: »

the silence over the weekend is very very worrying
a deal is being done no doubt about it.......Pat King will be on his way soon probably to a State board........whose interests will take priority in any new deal?
I'm very very very worried

How would he sell the breaking of the ASTI principle of teachers not assessing their pupils to union members? Besides, whether or not there is another ballot on the JCSA isn't solely up to him.

km79

still no news ?
very unusual
tweaking the details of the new "deal" we will most likely be balloted on meaning the new science course will most likely be started by the time it's sorted.
the new science course we were not allowed have any input into due to a union directive.
I'll be RAGING if this pans out as I have said .

vamos!

Waiting until midterm to make the announcement? Further details to be hammered out and announced before Easter break and final plan last day in May perhaps? I hope I'm wrong.

km79

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/junior-cycle-talks-adjourned-without-agreement//back_to/asti-home/

someone is trying to save face......who is it though ? Jan? Unions? or more than likely both........
how "independent" is the chairperson ? who pays him?

endakenny

km79 wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/junior-cycle-talks-adjourned-without-agreement//back_to/asti-home/

someone is trying to save face......who is it though ? Jan? Unions? or more than likely both........
how "independent" is the chairperson ? who pays him?

So what if Dr Travers is paid by the Department of Education? It doesn't mean that he isn't independent. After all, the Director of Public Prosecutions is independent even though her salary is paid by the Department of Justice.

sitstill

Those of us who are Department paid have had the strike day stopped from today's wages :-(

wtd2008

What is the story with the increments due in December? Any update?

sitstill

wtd2008 wrote: »

What is the story with the increments due in December? Any update?

According to the ASTI website, we are getting them in our next pay on the 19th:

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/salary-increments-delay-update//back_to/asti-home/

Chancer3001

I hope increment pay is backdated

No reason it shouldn't be

km79

its beyond farcical that the union has let them away with breaking HRA with a feeble excuse about being unable to update computer software for increments when they can deduct strike pay in the very next pay packet.
I dread what news tomorrows standing committee meeting will bring. .

km79

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I hope increment pay is backdated

No reason it shouldn't be

"computer says no " ...........

Chancer3001

If they break Haddington road again asti has said it will stop croke park hours

km79

Chancer3001 wrote: »

If they break Haddington road again asti has said it will stop croke park hours

They said members will be balloted on stopping croke park hours
Big difference and won't happen anyway

solerina

Chancer3001 wrote: »

If they break Haddington road again asti has said it will stop croke park hours

Oh please God that we do....they are the worst, most useless hours ever....sitting around trying to pretend you are actually doing something other than trying to stay awake after a long day !!!

katydid

solerina wrote: »

Oh please God that we do....they are the worst, most useless hours ever....sitting around trying to pretend you are actually doing something other than trying to stay awake after a long day !!!

Those hours are the most ridiculous idea ever. Apart from the fact that the end of a long day is the worst time of the day to have meetings, it means that an hour which could be used for helping students or doing CPD is wasted.

man_no_plan

Assuming that we all agree that there is a need for meetings, PTM, whole staff and subject dept and that tuition time is the most valuable time we have for our students what formula would posters suggest should be used to determine when/ how often meetings are held and how many should be held in the year?

I'm working on the assumption that whatever successor agreement to HRA comes will try to safeguard tuition time for students and that there is no realistic hope of all of the hours disappearing.

katydid

man_no_plan wrote: »

Assuming that we all agree that there is a need for meetings, PTM, whole staff and subject dept and that tuition time is the most valuable time we have for our students what formula would posters suggest should be used to determine when/ how often meetings are held and how many should be held in the year?

I'm working on the assumption that whatever successor agreement to HRA comes will try to safeguard tuition time for students and that there is no realistic hope of all of the hours disappearing.

A start would be to allow meetings at times when it suits the staff, not necessarily at the end of a long day unless there is no alternative. If they are not whole school meetings, and the people involved are free at other times; if they all have a free class at the same time, or want to meet at lunchtime, that should be allowed. And the time should be more flexibly used for CPD, assisting students, helping with extra-curricular activities or whatever, not for makey uppey meetings which are just held for the sake of it.

endakenny

I do not believe that expressing discontent about the extra workload that the JCSA, in the form that the Department intends it to be, would entail would turn public opinion against the current industrial action, given the anti-government sentiment that exists among many people, e.g. the state of the health service.

As for the rigidity of the CP hours, Chilli explained it in post 48 of the following thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057369762&page=4

As far as I am aware, a major issue here was that the JMB pushed for the current format. They did not want nor considered that their members had time to be running around, compiling and tallying individual CPA hours for teaching staff. Consequently, the format of everyone in one room was arrived at.

Sure, it is a pain for teachers and is a waste of time in many cases (most 2 hour meetings with 40 people in a room are). But from the Principals' point of view, their job has become so difficult, so time-consuming and in some cases almost untenable, that this was another task they weren't willing to do. The government (DOE&S) are not going to go against the school managers. Sure then there would be all-out war.

In the negotiations for the successor to HRA, the ASTI should put pressure on its members who are principals and deputy principals to go easy on the staff, i.e. not insisting on teachers being in the same room for the extra hours. After all, principals and deputy principals constitute a minority of the membership of each of the teachers' unions.

I also believe that the fall-out of the ASTI industrial action that took place at the beginning of this century is the reason for the ASTI leadership's unwillingness to continue the campaign against HRA just like the Iraq war is the reason for the House of Commons' refusal to authorise RAF air strikes in Syria.

katydid

endakenny wrote: »

In the negotiations for the successor to HRA, the ASTI should put pressure on its members who are principals and deputy principals to go easy on the staff, i.e. not insisting on teachers being in the same room for the extra hours. After all, principals and deputy principals constitute a minority of the membership of each of the teachers' unions.

You think it's that simple? How would they "put pressure" on them?

Principals and vice-principals may be union members, but first and foremost they are management.

endakenny

katydid wrote: »

You think it's that simple? How would they "put pressure" on them?

Principals and vice-principals may be union members, but first and foremost they are management.

The principals and vice-principals constitute a minority of the union membership. The union leadership, representing the majority, could put pressure on them by threatening to make their lives difficult if they don't respect the will of the staff. After all, the ordinary teacher and the principal are on first name terms with each other, at least when they are not in earshot of pupils, and thus the relationship between superior and subordinate is less formal in teaching than in the police or the military, in which subordinates have to call superiors "Sarge" or "Sir".

seavill

endakenny wrote: »

The principals and vice-principals constitute a minority of the union membership. The union leadership, representing the majority, could put pressure on them by threatening to make their lives difficult if they don't respect the will of the staff. After all, the ordinary teacher and the principal are on first name terms with each other, at least when they are not in earshot of pupils, and thus the relationship between superior and subordinate is less formal in teaching than in the police or the military, in which subordinates have to call superiors "Sarge" or "Sir".

How can the union leadership put pressure on managment as a matter of interest?
Principals & DPs have a job to do, which includes doing what they are told by their bosses (the Government/Department) which includes running CP hours in a way that they were told to do.
I don't see how bullying P & DPs into doing what you want them to do helps in any way.
Yes some are more lenient than others but they still have to follow orders that is their job. We are signed up to CP/HRA which means we have to follow the rules (even if they Department don't) we can't sign up to an agreement and then pick and choose what we want to do and what we don't.
Really don't see where youa re going with this one apart from trying to say something to win over a few votes