Debate: Does it annoy you that RTE are only Broadcaster on HD on Saorview?

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current position is due to the SI signed by Minister Carey on his last day in office which hobbled RTE. TV3 then exploited the situation by refusing to pay transmission charges. RTE NL should have pulled the plug on them, but Comreg decided to force 2RN/RTE NL to charge for Saorview on bandwidth. This guaranteed 2RN €12m a year whatever capacity was used, and users had to pay by bandwidth.

The effect of this ruling was to make HD very expensive for the first to jump, while 2RN burn off the excess capacity at everyone's expense.

I think if RTE took the first mux, and the €6m for the second was divided up between TV3, TG4, and UTVi, they could all have a SD channel and an HD channel each, at a cost of €2m each.

On Soarview we currently have two HD test cards plus one SD one and an SD information channel just burning away with no income for anyone.

This is mad stuff and typical of our political system when an outgoing minister forces through questionable decisions on their very last day in office knowing that they will not be there to see it properly over the line.

Yes I came across those X 2 of the 2rn test cards in HD and X 1 of the 2rn test cards in SD along with the pointless Saorview Technical channel in SD. This technical channel will probably have the same information for the next 12 months if the Saorview website is anything to compare. I also do not know why there needs to be X 2 versions of the same RTÉ One +1 time-shift channel as both are in same SD format.

If RTÉ One+1 shared the same Saorview channel number as RTÉjr given that their hours of operation currently complement each other in a similar way to it's digital radio equivalent versions RTÉ junior/RTÉ chill timeshare arrangement.

What is mad is Minister Carey has been gone for nearly FOUR years and Minister Rabbitte chose to do nothing about this (or about most other things under his control) and Minister White has also chosen to do nothing.

Meanwhile, 2RN/RTE have started monkeying about with the signal.

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is mad is Minister Carey has been gone for nearly FOUR years and Minister Rabbitte chose to do nothing about this (or about most other things under his control) and Minister White has also chosen to do nothing.

Meanwhile, 2RN/RTE have started monkeying about with the signal.

Well if Minister Carey only signed off on the whole charging mechanism for channels going on to the Irish digital terrestrial tv platform (i.e.) Saorview on his last day in office without taking into account the ramifications of such a policy and if his successor Minister Rabbitte left the existing status quo intact then this is unacceptable.

I was hopeful that the current Minister Alex White would get things moving especially when he managed to call TV3's bluff by assigning an Irish PSB licence to UTV Ireland thus allowing the channel access to broadcast on Saorview and Sky Digital ROI epg.

As you said in an earlier post, it would be better if we completely separated all transmission networking from the state public service broadcaster as it sounds like there is still a "special relationship" between RTÉ and 2rn(RTÉnl) in comparison to the independent commercial broadcasters like TV3, TG4, UTV Ireland, Oireachtas TV, IRISH TV and so on.

Minister Carey signed off on the non-advertising on RTE NN and RTE Jr and not allowing RTE to use the half channel as RTE 3 or RTE Plus, but use it as RTE 1+1, thus ensuring it had no audience.

Minister Rabitte refused to allow (by not allowing) RTE 2 to rearrange their schedule to move children's programmes across to the children's channel. RTE are thus forced to run two DTT channels with no income.

It was Comreg that sorted out TV3's complaint about DTT charges by adjudging that the best way of making the charges fair and transparent was to make the charges based of bandwidth used - sounds fair. However, since there is unused capacity, this gets charged to the current uses which results in charges being nearly double the level that they should be at. It was the refusal by the Oireactas to pay for OTV, but their willingness to pay Sky (a foreign owned and regulated TV platform) €250k that shows what a scandal this is.

Clearly there are hints on the ether that this will be sorted out, but no announcements. UTVi needs to go HD. TV3 needs to go HD (before the RWC) and TG4 wants to go HD, but none of them want to pay €2.4m per year for the privilege. There is plenty of capacity, it is just being burnt off for no reason.

Gerry Wicklow

Sam Russell wrote: »

.... There is plenty of capacity, it is just being burnt off for no reason.

That's the most annoying bit. We are paying for this waste of electricity either way.
Next they'll be asking us to pay for water that is spilled in the ground.... Oh wait !!:rolleyes:

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

That's the most annoying bit. We are paying for this waste of electricity either way.
Next they'll be asking us to pay for water that is spilled in the ground.... Oh wait !!:rolleyes:

There is no waste of electricity, the muxes are the same power, it is just wasted bits filling the transport stream. It is like the fresh air in a part filled aircraft that could carry revenue producing passengers.

They are using the lowest spec for SD and HD despite having loads of spare capacity. SD is 504 by 576 instead of 720 by 576, with HD being 1440 by 1096 instead of 1920 by 1096. It does not affect bandwidth much to up the spec for either one.

Gerry Wicklow

But that's just it. They are wasting money broadcasting useless data and test cards when we could have far better picture quality

Jpmarn

I was told by a friend that works in the TV trade that the spare HD channels On. Saorview are for future use by RTE.

formerly scottish paddy

Jpmarn wrote: »

I was told by a friend that works in the TV trade that the spare HD channels On. Saorview are for future use by RTE.

I would doubt it, with RTÉ 1 and 2 in HD, I cannot see RTÉ jr or NN being in HD for some considerable time.

DeepBlue

Sam Russell wrote: »

TV3 needs to go HD (before the RWC) and TG4 wants to go HD, but none of them want to pay €2.4m per year for the privilege.

It seems that TV3 will be going HD in mid 2015 prior to the Rugby World Cup.
http://cce.gno.ie/news/2014/04APR/15rwctv3hd.php

Jpmarn wrote: »

I was told by a friend that works in the TV trade that the spare HD channels On. Saorview are for future use by RTE.

If RTE need more space they can get it, 2RN can add muxes as long as there are customers prepared to pay.

Currently RTE fill one mux, and would require significant permissions from lots of politicians, agencies and probably new legislation to get any more.

If TG4, TV3, and UTVi went HD, together with 3 SD channels they would fill the other. Each mux costs less than €6m currently. It is because they are all holding back that none of them are going forward.

RED L4 0TH

DeepBlue wrote: »

It seems that TV3 will be going HD in mid 2015 prior to the Rugby World Cup.
http://cce.gno.ie/news/2014/04APR/15rwctv3hd.php

Saorview included then in it's HD plans if the following is to be believed.

TV3 also announced its plans to provide a HD service across all platforms by mid-2015, in time for the RWC which takes place from 18 September to 31 October 2015.

Might force UTVI to move from SD too. The statement is from April 2014 though.

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

Saorview included then in it's HD plans if the following is to be believed.

Might force UTVI to move from SD too. The statement is from April 2014 though.

I think any statement issued as far back as April 2014 (9 months ago now) should be taken with a health warning as quite a lot was forced to happen with regards to a certain channel being permitted to broadcast on Saorview/Sky Digital ROI/UPC Ireland/eircom e-Vision towards late November/early December.

TV3 may decide not to blink where Saorview/2rn(RTÉ) is concerned and may well just push the added benefits/advantages of watching TV3 in High Definition format on Sky Digital and UPC Ireland for the best TV pictures in the forthcoming Rugby World Cup later in the year. As a commercial channel, they will weigh it all up and decide which makes most commercial sense for them as a company. Ideally I'm sure they would like to be in HD format on all platforms but TV3 may ultimately decide that Saorview is not something they will be blackmailed on where HD transmission fees is concerned unless the current charging structure is radically changed in their favour.

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I Ideally I'm sure they would like to be in HD format on all platforms but TV3 may ultimately decide that Saorview is not something they will be blackmailed on where HD transmission fees is concerned unless the current charging structure is radically changed in their favour.

It was their action that caused the charging regime to be changed to its current format. It disadvantages everyone. It is a basic cost plus regime with the unused space being ignored. This means the current situation with a second mux nearly empty is the worst possible situation as the charges are nearly double what they would be if it was nearly full, as it would be if five channels were HD.

Gonzo

I think one of the main problems with Saorview is not the lack of HD but the lack of channels other than RTE, TV3 etc. Most other countries have 30 or 40 channels on their saorview equivalent services.

We should at least have the rest of the irish channels such as Setanta, TG4 HD and UTVi HD for starters. There should also be the irish version of Sky News and a few of the other international news channels such as Euronews, France 24 and some other FTA channels like Food Network, CBS Action etc.

mass_debater

Gonzo wrote: »

I think one of the main problems with Saorview is not the lack of HD but the lack of channels other than RTE, TV3 etc. Most other countries have 30 or 40 channels on their saorview equivalent services.

We should at least have the rest of the irish channels such as Setanta, TG4 HD and UTVi HD for starters. There should also be the irish version of Sky News and a few of the other international news channels such as Euronews, France 24 and some other FTA channels like Food Network, CBS Action etc.

No chance they'd pay to be on a small system like Saorview, other countries have a bigger audience

10000maniacs

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was their action that caused the charging regime to be changed to its current format. It disadvantages everyone. It is a basic cost plus regime with the unused space being ignored. This means the current situation with a second mux nearly empty is the worst possible situation as the charges are nearly double what they would be if it was nearly full, as it would be if five channels were HD.

BBC 1 and 2 SD on Saorview was a done deal.
Hands shaken on it and everything. Then complaints from TV3 to the then minister Eamon Ryan caused him to sneakily back track on the deal and come up with a cock and bull$hit story about the BBC being accessible only on a "paid for" basis.
The original plan was probably that BBC would be relayed on Saorview at zero charge for the BBC and RTE1 & 2 reciprocally on Freeview NI. TV3 probably burst into Eamon's office, and ranted, Why do we have to pay and the beeb are getting it for free? And probably threatened to pull out of Saorview.
The "Memorandum of Understanding" was the actual reason the BBC would have had free slots on Saorview and RTE would have free slots on Freeview NI.

ardmacha

mass_debater wrote: »

No chance they'd pay to be on a small system like Saorview, other countries have a bigger audience

This implies that the Saorview carriage fees are not pro rata with other places. This is not inevitable.

10000maniacs wrote: »

BBC 1 and 2 SD on Saorview was a done deal.
Hands shaken on it and everything. Then complaints from TV3 to the then minister Eamon Ryan caused him to sneakily back track on the deal ...

What I took from the telling of the story, at the time, was that everyone but the BBC was in on the 'deal', & it was BBC objections that resulted in references to a free service being replaced with paid-for.

The press reports in the Irish Independent and Irish Times the morning after the agreement gave the details of the announcement in full & no mention of "On a paid for basis", together with pictures of the two ministers shaking hands. I'm sure there is a link or 2 still available on this forum (somewhere).
Also the final paragraph of the Indo article had a mention of TV3 complaints of the announcement and how they were going to address it.

10000maniacs

Thurston? wrote: »

What I took from the telling of the story, at the time, was that everyone but the BBC was in on the 'deal', & it was BBC objections that resulted in references to a free service being replaced with paid-for.

The BBC agreed to the deal. Ben Bradshaw agreed to the deal and shook hands with Ryan.
It was TV3 who threw the toys out of the pram.

It all looks like something that was never really going to happen, with people who'd got their hopes up looking for various 'bad guys'.

Who exactly did people think was going to fund transmission of BBC channels on Saorview?

There are two elements to the cost of the BBC on Saorview - the transmission costs and the rights issues. Currently and at the time, the BBC charges other platforms for rights for ROI. Who was to pay these, or would all platforms get the BBC for free?

The transmission fees could have been swallowed by RTE, if the NI transmission fees were also swallowed by NI. Currently RTE are swallowing two SD channels that earn no money for them.

It could have been the rights issue, but the fees would be small beer to the BBC, but a big principle for them to give away their rights for free. I think that that could have been a major element to the change of interpretation of the MOU.

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are two elements to the cost of the BBC on Saorview - the transmission costs and the rights issues. Currently and at the time, the BBC charges other platforms for rights for ROI. Who was to pay these, or would all platforms get the BBC for free?

The transmission fees could have been swallowed by RTE, if the NI transmission fees were also swallowed by NI. Currently RTE are swallowing two SD channels that earn no money for them.

It could have been the rights issue, but the fees would be small beer to the BBC, but a big principle for them to give away their rights for free. I think that that could have been a major element to the change of interpretation of the MOU.

The BBC were never really concerned about rights issues. Only Irish broadcasters were and are concerned about rights issues. Big pond small pond and all that. Dyke's 2002 FTA satellite decision proves that.
Also, at such a sensitive time in Anglo Irish relations, a British Labour government was hardly likely to renege an agreed deal.
Also the obfuscated and underhand manner in which Ryan dealt with the aftermath of the issue smells of an Irish and Irish only decision.

Thurston? wrote: »

It all looks like something that was never really going to happen, with people who'd got their hopes up looking for various 'bad guys'.

Who exactly did people think was going to fund transmission of BBC channels on Saorview?

I think its quite pertinent to finger blame on the people who have Saorview in the state it is in 2015. Much of the blame should go to TV3.
Their low self esteem, pettiness and the ramifications of this for our terrestrial television platform.

I think that the major blame for the state of RTE should be placed at RTE's door.

TV3 have no power to cause the level of nuisance that would be required, but they did throw their toys out of the pram on many occasions.

I believe that the vast majority of RTE employees do not view RTE on Saorview, using either UPC or Sky.

When the analogue was turned off, Sean O'Rouke on the One o'Clock news on radio, referred to RTE NEWS NOW as a new channel, not realising it had been on air for 17 months since the official launch of Saorview, and had actually been on air for much longer.

The fight over charges was caused by BAI and COMREG not allowing RTE a free hand in the opening of new channels, so RTE played hard ball and simply ignored Saorview, and we all lost out.

This is all my opinion - I have no inside knowledge.

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

I think its quite pertinent to finger blame on the people who have Saorview in the state it is in 2015. Much of the blame should go to TV3.
Their low self esteem, pettiness and the ramifications of this for our terrestrial television platform.

I honestly don't know what people expect the 'state' of Saorview to be at this stage. It's right about where I would expect it to be, given all that's available for free from our neighbours.

Gonzo wrote: »

I think one of the main problems with Saorview is not the lack of HD but the lack of channels other than RTE, TV3 etc. Most other countries have 30 or 40 channels on their saorview equivalent services.

We should at least have the rest of the irish channels such as Setanta, TG4 HD and UTVi HD for starters. There should also be the irish version of Sky News and a few of the other international news channels such as Euronews, France 24 and some other FTA channels like Food Network, CBS Action etc.

You make some common sense points - I wonder if Sky News Éire was on Saorview to air it's Irish commercial breaks via the Irish opt-out satellite frequency, perhaps BBC tv might also want to run on the Saorview platform as their BBC World News television channel can and does broadcast commercials as it is not funded by the UK TV Licence.

Thurston? wrote: »

I honestly don't know what people expect the 'state' of Saorview to be at this stage. It's right about where I would expect it to be, given all that's available for free from our neighbours.

I expect UTV Ireland to be in HD. I expect BBC 1 and BBC 2 to be available in reciprocate for Irish channels on Freeview NI. That's what I expect.
But everything in this country seems to get botched by weak legislation, politicians and of course sheer stupidity.
Thank god I don't have to depend on Saorview.