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Buying a house - tenant will not move out, contracts signed, closing date passed

niallfitz

Hi there,

Am totally stressed with a house purchase! We sold our family home about 12 months ago and went house hunting. We are currently renting. After a long search and many bids being beaten, we found a second hand property to buy as our family home and drew down a mortgage, agreed a price and a closing date and both we and the vendor have signed contracts.

On the day the house was due to close (get the keys etc.) about 5 weeks ago, the vendor's sol contacted my sol to inform him that a tenant was refusing to leave. The vendor's sol had assured my sol that the correct termination notice had been served (112 days) in writing and that the tenant was simply saying that they "had nowhere to go" and was "digging their heels in".

We are currently in limbo and the tenant is still there. I have given the mortgage back to the bank and can re-draw it down within 2 months without penalty... then I have to re-apply. My sol has served a notice of completion that is due to run out in about 2 weeks time. The vendor wants to go to the PRTB but I have heard that that could take 9-12 months to resolve itself!!

I heard that we can sue the vendor but have no idea if that is worth it... and it is complicated by the not-leaving- tenant. We really want the house and we are so so frustrated that nobody between the PRTB, the sols, the vendor can come up with a timeline or what is happening next... we just want to buy a house for our family!

Has anyone been through this before or could offer some practical advice?

Thanks!

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BoatMad

blacklilly wrote: »

If the current tenants are not willing to play ball with the current lanldord, they're hardly going to change their attuitude for the OP.

is worth a try, the alternative is a long processes of looking for a house, possibly experiencing a further property price rise, and then the possibly useless attempt to recover costs from the seller.

blacklilly

cpoh1 wrote: »

Why not call into the existing tennants? It might be worth a shot trying to appeal to their human nature if they see the person they are impacting on face to face.

If the current tenants are not willing to play ball with the current lanldord, they're hardly going to change their attuitude for the OP.

BoatMad

Gatling wrote: »

Stupid behaviour by the tenant I wish the Gardai could intervene in situations in like this .

absolutely not. tenants have few rights in ireland, you have no knowledge of why the tenant is not leaving, due process must be applied.

blacklilly

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The only way this could possibly end well is if you can help the tenant find somewhere else to go, and that is a place they are happy to go to. Which may or may not be possible, depending on whether "nowhere to go" is the real reason they won't leave.

Do you know anyone who knows the tenant, who might be able to find out what's really going on? Unlikely in a large city, I know, but it's worth thinking about..

I would consider this bad advice

Gatling

Stupid behaviour by the tenant I wish the Gardai could intervene in situations in like this .

eviltimeban

niallfitz wrote: »

I might call in ... one last shot, nothing to lose etc.

Stay away... and walk away.

BoatMad

I would have thought the seller would grease the hands of the tenant in order to secure the deal. That should be suggested first, thats all that may be required

athtrasna

niallfitz wrote: »

I might call in ... one last shot, nothing to lose etc.

Better to ask your solicitor to do that. You're too emotionally involved in the property at this stage

Enigma IE

niallfitz wrote: »

Walking away is fairly easy as vendor reneged on his side of contract - giving me vacant possession weeks ago. Means I just issue a 28 day notice of completion and can walk away and/or seek damages if that has elapsed and no vacant possession. In fairness to my sol, he was given assurances by the other side that vacant possession was forthcoming. It was only on the closing day that the vendor told his own sol that the tenant was still there.

Hi Niall, in that case, your best option is probably to do just that and walk away. If it was meant to be, it would. If not, then you never know, something even better may come along. Also bear in mind, since the central bank changes re 20% deposit required, prices have started to come down so you might just get a better deal elsewhere.

niallfitz

whippet wrote: »

be cautious of approaching the tenants; even just enquiring may be construed as harassment by some people.

I might call in ... one last shot, nothing to lose etc.

niallfitz

whippet wrote: »

chalk it up to experience and walk away; don't spend another moment worrying about this.

A tenant who says they will not move is either looking to eek out a rent free existence for as long as possible or is looking to blackmail someone in to getting them to move.

Were you aware of a sitting tenant when you agreed the sale? if so this is something that your solicitor should have warned you may be a problem as you would have had an extra party to the transaction. The vendor can't physically control the tenant .. and unfortunately due process in ireland is biased towards the tenant as they can drag it out for months.

Beginning to feel like that... it is again as it is a the right property in right location, waited so long etc etc.

Yep, it was noted at start but nobody really knows anything until closing day as vendor sol is open to malpractice if money transfers on close day and property is not really vacant.

niallfitz

Enigma IE wrote: »

There's a legally binding contract, so walking away is certainly not as easy option. You've been let down by your solicitor by him allowing you to sign anything, until the tenant situation was resolved.

Your solicitor needs to buck up his ideas and come up with a solution for you.

Walking away is fairly easy as vendor reneged on his side of contract - giving me vacant possession weeks ago. Means I just issue a 28 day notice of completion and can walk away and/or seek damages if that has elapsed and no vacant possession. In fairness to my sol, he was given assurances by the other side that vacant possession was forthcoming. It was only on the closing day that the vendor told his own sol that the tenant was still there.

niallfitz

seamus wrote: »

There's theoretically a working system here, the problem is backlogs and timelines. There should be a dedicated track for this whereby the PRTB process takes a maximum of 3 months, and if the tenant isn't out within a month, the landlord can call in Garda assistance to have them forcibly removed on day 29.
This means that tenants could overhold for a maximum of four months, rather than the farcical situation we have at present where the PRTB is advising tenants to overhold because it'll give them an extra year in the property.

The landlord to be fair can only work with what he has. One issue you potentially risk in cases like this is if the landlord illegally evicts the sitting tenants and then claims the property is vacant and completes the sale, the tenants could legally have you removed from the property even after you've moved in :eek:

I consider timeline as a key component of the system. In this scenario the timeline makes the system break down. The lengthy timeline gives the tenant significant leverage to seek 'move on' money. Encouraging tenants to over hold in this situation is a disgrace.

Agree - this should be a separate expedited track. I don't want to be involved in anything illegal so will be wise to any miraculous 'vacating'.

Kelly06

seamus wrote: »

One issue you potentially risk in cases like this is if the landlord illegally evicts the sitting tenants and then claims the property is vacant and completes the sale, the tenants could legally have you removed from the property even after you've moved in :eek:

Surely this is not the case ! Would the tenant not bring an action for illegal eviction against their landlord (vendor) through the prtb in this event? They would be compensated but they would not be given back their tenancy.

In any event it is not possible to complete the purchase untill the tenant vacates as the op is using a mortgage to purchase the property. The purchaser must get vacant possession when the mortgage is drawn down as a condition of the mortgage.

Enigma IE

There's a legally binding contract, so walking away is certainly not as easy option. You've been let down by your solicitor by him allowing you to sign anything, until the tenant situation was resolved.

Your solicitor needs to buck up his ideas and come up with a solution for you.

seamus

niallfitz wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. Yep... I think it is looking like that outcome will come to pass ... so frustrated! You can end the contract after a notice of completion has been served and seek costs (my rent, mortgage interest, additional legal cost etc).

There is absolutely no cover or aide for the purchaser here. It is all in favour of the the tennant (whether they are righ tor wrong) in terms of timeline but the landlord has equal fault on his doorstep here by not ensuring vacancy before selling >:[

There's theoretically a working system here, the problem is backlogs and timelines. There should be a dedicated track for this whereby the PRTB process takes a maximum of 3 months, and if the tenant isn't out within a month, the landlord can call in Garda assistance to have them forcibly removed on day 29.
This means that tenants could overhold for a maximum of four months, rather than the farcical situation we have at present where the PRTB is advising tenants to overhold because it'll give them an extra year in the property.

The landlord to be fair can only work with what he has. One issue you potentially risk in cases like this is if the landlord illegally evicts the sitting tenants and then claims the property is vacant and completes the sale, the tenants could legally have you removed from the property even after you've moved in :eek:

whippet

cpoh1 wrote: »

Why not call into the existing tennants? It might be worth a shot trying to appeal to their human nature if they see the person they are impacting on face to face.

be cautious of approaching the tenants; even just enquiring may be construed as harassment by some people.

whippet

chalk it up to experience and walk away; don't spend another moment worrying about this.

A tenant who says they will not move is either looking to eek out a rent free existence for as long as possible or is looking to blackmail someone in to getting them to move.

Were you aware of a sitting tenant when you agreed the sale? if so this is something that your solicitor should have warned you may be a problem as you would have had an extra party to the transaction. The vendor can't physically control the tenant .. and unfortunately due process in ireland is biased towards the tenant as they can drag it out for months.

cpoh1

Why not call into the existing tennants? It might be worth a shot trying to appeal to their human nature if they see the person they are impacting on face to face.

niallfitz

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The only way this could possibly end well is if you can help the tenant find somewhere else to go, and that is a place they are happy to go to. Which may or may not be possible, depending on whether "nowhere to go" is the real reason they won't leave.

Do you know anyone who knows the tenant, who might be able to find out what's really going on? Unlikely in a large city, I know, but it's worth thinking about.

Tennant was apparently already offered an equivalent place with less rent.

Personally I'd be looking for another house, and not considering any with sitting tenants.

Yep!

niallfitz

seamus wrote: »

The only practical advice that can really be given is to move on and find somewhere else, **** as that may be.

The PRTB process may take 9-12 months, but even after the PRTB process has gone through, the tenants do not have to leave. The PRTB has no powers to enforce its own judgements.

If the tenants refuse to leave after the PRTB judgement, you have to go to court to have the PRTB judgement enforced, which could take another 12 months. Only a court order can have the tenants forcibly removed, at which point there's the risk that the property will end up being badly damaged.

So, it's an "how long is a piece of string" question, really. The tenants may leave next week, or they may not be gone until January 2017. Unless the seller can give you any firm assurances, talk to your solicitor about ending the contract and reclaiming your losses from the seller.

Thanks for your reply. Yep... I think it is looking like that outcome will come to pass

... so frustrated! You can end the contract after a notice of completion has been served and seek costs (my rent, mortgage interest, additional legal cost etc).

There is absolutely no cover or aide for the purchaser here. It is all in favour of the the tennant (whether they are righ tor wrong) in terms of timeline but the landlord has equal fault on his doorstep here by not ensuring vacancy before selling >:[

niallfitz

allibastor wrote: »

WOW, poor you, that is a bad situation to be found in.

Will the deeds of the house not pass to you if the tenant is still sitting.

The only thing I would have thought is that if you buy the house and have the deeds in your name, but no agreement with the tenant can you not just turf them out.

Nope. Turfing someone out takes a very long time. My mortgage won't allow me to take on a tennant anyway. Not that I want one!

niallfitz

TheDriver wrote: »

only your solicitor can advise as I assume you have contracts legally binding on both sides.....

Yep - he is contractually bound to sell as vacant and is not contractually holding up his end currently.

niallfitz

TheDriver wrote: »

only your solicitor can advise as I assume you have contracts legally binding on both sides.....

- he is bound to sell as vacant and it not contractually holding up his end currently.

niallfitz

handlemaster wrote: »

seller may have to offer money for tenant to leave. the tenant knowing this may e holding on for same

Yep. I heard that this often the practical solution as the due process takes so long

seamus

The only practical advice that can really be given is to move on and find somewhere else, **** as that may be.

The PRTB process may take 9-12 months, but even after the PRTB process has gone through, the tenants do not have to leave. The PRTB has no powers to enforce its own judgements.

If the tenants refuse to leave after the PRTB judgement, you have to go to court to have the PRTB judgement enforced, which could take another 12 months. Only a court order can have the tenants forcibly removed, at which point there's the risk that the property will end up being badly damaged.

So, it's an "how long is a piece of string" question, really. The tenants may leave next week, or they may not be gone until January 2017. Unless the seller can give you any firm assurances, talk to your solicitor about ending the contract and reclaiming your losses from the seller.

allibastor

WOW, poor you, that is a bad situation to be found in.

Will the deeds of the house not pass to you if the tenant is still sitting.

The only thing I would have thought is that if you buy the house and have the deeds in your name, but no agreement with the tenant can you not just turf them out.

TheDriver

only your solicitor can advise as I assume you have contracts legally binding on both sides.....

handlemaster

seller may have to offer money for tenant to leave. the tenant knowing this may e holding on for same

[Deleted User]

112 days notice suggests they have been there four years or more - I don't think this will resolve itself quickly.