orubiru wrote: » It there anything at all that could shake your faith?
orubiru wrote: » I believed in the Christian God once but then I learned about other Gods and they appealed to me more so I felt a better connection to them.
orubiru wrote: » Do you think that something similar could ever happen to you?
Festus wrote: » You are correct. It is what we do or do not do in this life that defines us. Your memories will be intact Everyone is responsible for their own actions. You cannot blame Satan if you follow him and give in to his temptations. Evil cannot create anything. All it can do is destroy.
Thisname wrote: » Highly unlikely that a group of people, would be experiencing the same delusion about Jesus. And then go on to dedicate their lives to spreading the gospel, being persecuted and killed in the process (you can hardly compare that to some of your examples like Star Wars fans etc). The apostle Paul was converted on the road to Damascus. Prior to that he was zealously persecuting Christians for their faith. He had never met with the disciples, in fact if he has he would have killed them prior to his conversion.
Festus wrote: » Do you have citations from a reputable Bible scholar to support this or are you merely presenting this as your opinion?
Festus wrote: » Two of the Apostles wrote Gospels as eye witnesses. Direct testimony.
orubiru wrote: » If that's true then I am not sure I'd want to move on to the next life. I have to remember the horrors that take place on Earth? No thanks.
orubiru wrote: » Even if I understood Gods plan I'm not sure that I could deal with knowing that children are suffering on Earth. Sure, it's all part of the plan but THEY don't know that while they are going through it. It's just an awful situation to be in.
orubiru wrote: » It would make me question the character of God.
orubiru wrote: » I just don't get it. Why design beings in such a way that they have to devour other beings in order to survive? That seems unspeakably cruel. If I look at a lion and a zebra and consider the "design" at work here... surely there is scope to criticize the designer? Who would design the world in such a way that the lion has to tear the zebra apart with claws and teeth just to survive?
orubiru wrote: » What if we have it backwards? What if this is Satans world and God is the mechanism by which we are compelled to come back for more? Do you accept that it might be a possibility?
Festus wrote: » Lions and other carnivorous creatures are not "beings". If you read Genesis you will see that they were not created carnivorous - that came later.
Thisname wrote: » Highly unlikely that a group of people, would be experiencing the same delusion about Jesus. And then go on to dedicate their lives to spreading the gospel, being persecuted and killed in the process (you can hardly compare that to some of your examples like Star Wars fans etc).
Since the Third of Tammuz, we are no longer able to physically see the Rebbe King Moshiach. The Rebbe remains physically alive just as before, it is only to our eyes that he is concealed. Therefore, we call this a day of concealment, and many refer to this as the "last test." Just as we know that there is a God though we may not see him, so too the Rebbe King Moshiach is here even though we do not see him.
For this reason, the Rebbe is omniscient, omnipotent, and entirely without limits. He is ‘indistinguishable’ from God. Because he is a transparent window for pure divinity, a ‘man-God,’ ‘when you speak to him, you speak to God.
Most scholars agree, following what is known as the "Marcan hypothesis",[8] that the authors of Luke and Matthew used Mark as a source when writing their gospels after the Gospel of Mark was completed (written 60-75 AD)
orubiru wrote: » Over time this was reversed and people were persecuted and killed in the name of spreading the gospel. Witch trials... inquisitions... Do you then agree that the beliefs of those victims of Christianity are on equal footing with those of the writers of the New Testament? After all, these people were endured torture and died for their beliefs. You seem to be saying that if a group of people are prepared to suffer and die for their beliefs then that makes it more "real". So Christianity is just one in a long, long list of examples and no more "real" than any other on that list?
RikuoAmero wrote: » In terms of willingness to die for religious beliefs, the cults of Heaven's Gate and the Branch Davidians spring to mind as well. So no, the fact the apostles suffered imprisonment, torture and death does nothing at all to confirm to me that Jesus really was supernatural. It only tells me, at most, that these men believed their claims. Simply because a group of people are convinced about something to be supernatural says nothing at all as to whether or not they were actually correct.
MrPudding wrote: » It is, apparently, even worse than that. I recall reading somewhere that after the mass suicides it emerged that some of the people that willingly drank the poison didn't actually believe. They had spoken with people on the outside or written in diaries about not believing the story was true, but going along with it anyway, presumably out of some desire to belong. Think about that for a second, knowing something was not true, but still dying for it... Will try to find the references again. If we see people in modern times dying for a belief that they actually believe isn't true, what does that say for you apostles. In fact, given that followers of a religion dying for their belief is held up as evidence for many religions, mutually exclusive to christianity, or at least belived by christians to be wrong, what makes you martyrs right and everyone else's wrong? MrP
Festus wrote: » Julius Caesar on January 11, 49BC crossed the Rubicon. Or did he? There are no eyewitness testimonies to that event so we can safely say it did not happen. Correct? I do not know what your classical education is, if any, but no doubt there are some with a classical education who are reading this thread. Perhaps they can verify if Caesar actually crossed the Rubicon as described or not. St Matthew and St John were both Apostles and hence eye witnesses to Christs ministry., as well as authors of two of the Gospels. Please now consider yourself informed.
Andrewf20 wrote: » But does it matter? Julius Cesear doesnt lay claim to believe in him or go to hell which seems to be a popular viewpoint throughout the bible.
Andrewf20 wrote: » We see the convincing power of magic even today. Big claims like some of those in the bible deserve to come under severe scrutiny as all big claims should. And so, which is more likely - this stuff actually happened or that it was made up / done under a veil of magic and trickery.
Andrewf20 wrote: » All religons cant be true and im not sure what the bible offers in terms of evidence that other religons dont have.
Festus wrote: » That wasn't the point I was making. Please re-read that section again.
Festus wrote: » perhaps magic is a convincing power to you. To me it is nothing more than clever entertainment. However your comments suggest that you have scrutinized all of Christ's miracles. From your scrutiny can you explain how they were all done? Or did this "stuff" actually happen?
Festus wrote: » It is true that all religions cannot be true and it is by measuring one against the others that the truth is found. If you are not sure what the Bible offers start by reading it. Then compare it to the texts of the other religions.
marienbad wrote: » Unproven , written no sooner than AD 60.
Festus wrote: » However your comments suggest that you have scrutinized all of Christ's miracles. From your scrutiny can you explain how they were all done? Or did this "stuff" actually happen?
Safehands wrote: » I don't believe "miracles" actually happened. I believe that most of them were parables, presumably told by Jesus, which in time, turned into stories.
Safehands wrote: » For example; the wedding feast and the wine. Jesus was actually comparing the existing religious beliefs and his new presence, to wine. Before now the wine was poor now I have arrived and I am the fine wine. It was an analogy between old religious beliefs and the new Christianity, and wine. Up to now the poor wine was served, now you have fine wine. The same thing with the calming of the water, he has calmed the stormy religious water by his arrival.
Safehands wrote: » He seems to have been an amazing man. No Miracles though.
marienbad wrote: » Festus, can I have an answer please ? thanks .
Festus wrote: » When did Pliny the Younger commit his describion of the eruption of Mount Vesuvius of 79AD to writing? (hint: he did not write it in 79AD) Should vulcanologist ignore his evidence due to this gap and rethink their position on Plinian eruptions?
marienbad wrote: » Cab you Pease answer what I asked, thanks
Festus wrote: » So it is by faith you believe this, yes?
marienbad wrote: » This point, an answer please, thanks
Festus wrote: » Do you treat the biographies of celebrities written decades after the event in a similar vein? Should we treat a history like Band of Brothers the way you treat the Bible because it was written in 1992 and not 1945 ?
marienbad wrote: » We are discussing direct testimony versus hearsay and so far you have not shown the Bible is anything other than hearsay
Festus wrote: » I have stated it is direct testimony to which your response is that it is hearsay and you have insinuated that because there is a significance to the gap between the the events and their being written down. I have responded with examples that demonstrate that there is no significance to what you are insinuating.
marienbad wrote: » And who are you ? The most reputable scholars believe that two of the Gospels may be direct testimony but are not definitive on it . They may also may have reported it directly to the scribes that wrote it down later . Is that not correct
