Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

RikuoAmero wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself. Festus, you brought up the 1st law of thermodynamics "Matter/Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another" (thus basically saying matter/energy last forever)...but you then say matter doesn't last forever.
Which is it?

You might want to read the First Law of thermodynamics again and then take a look at what you have just posted.

I do have to ask because I was under the impression that an atheist was someone who believed in the doctrine that there is no god - understandable given the etymology of the term atheist - from the Greek atheos - no god.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't I and others here corrected you on that? Atheists (at least myself and people I know) do not believe there is no god. We lack a belief. We lack a positive belief for a god, because we haven't been convinced.
If you're going to try and criticize someone's beliefs/lack of beliefs, you might want to ask them to define their beliefs.. Just like I and others here have asked you plenty of times to define what you mean by god (bit rich of you of all people to say to others to define god)

You might want to read the First Law of thermodynamics again

Let's see...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics
"The first law of thermodynamics is a version of the law of conservation of energy, adapted for thermodynamic systems. The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed."
That page contains, among others, two sections, one for a closed universe, one for an open universe. If there was a scientific consensus for a closed universe (as you said, although not using the term consensus), why would that page contain the section on an open universe, or not say something like "an open universe has been refuted"?
...you were saying?

I'm looking at several sites discussing the topic, and so far, all of them say either flat or open universe. None of them say closed.

ABC101 wrote: »

Your hatred of anything religious is your undoing.

From Wikipedia...

Types of school[edit]
Primary education is generally completed at a national school, a multidenominational school, a gaelscoil or a preparatory school.

National schools date back to the introduction of state primary education in 1831. They are usually controlled by a board of management under diocesan patronage and often include a local clergyman.[11][12] The term "national school" has of late become partly synonymous with primary school in some parts. Recently, there have been calls from many sides for fresh thinking in the areas of funding and governance for such schools, with some wanting them to be fully secularised.[13]

As of 2010 mainstream primary schools numbered as follows:[14]

Type of school Number (total: 3165) Percentage of total (to 1d.p.)(citation needed)

Roman Catholic 2,884 91.1%
Church of Ireland (Anglican) 180 5.7%
Multi-denominational 73 2.3%
Presbyterian 14 0.4%
Inter-Denominational 8 0.3%
Muslim 2 0.1%
Methodist 1 <0.1%
Jewish 1 <0.1%
Quaker 4 <0.1%
Other/Unknown 1 <0.1%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

As over 91% of PRIMARY schools are R.C.

YOU DENY the positive role they have played in the development of Ireland as it is today.

Your hatred of Religious orders makes you blind to the facts.

You're blind to the many negative aspects of one religion dominating state education.

lazygal wrote: »

You're blind to the many negative aspects of one religion dominating state education.

Precisely. I didn't even know about Protestantism (to say nothing of other religions) before my teens.

ABC101

lazygal wrote: »

You're blind to the many negative aspects of one religion dominating state education.

So obviously you do not believe anything positive can be said about Irish education system to date. Because there just so happened to be a religious person on the board of management.

And what many negative aspects are you referring to here? Specify please?

ABC101 wrote: »

So obviously you do not believe anything positive can be said about Irish education system to date. Because there just so happened to be a religious person on the board of management.

And what many negative aspects are you referring to here? Specify please?

Forcing children not of the dominant faith to be indoctrinated and wear religious symbols such as crosses on uniforms. The time spent on indoctrination which would be better spent doing something useful. The fact that despite attempts some schools don't teach students about their sexuality properly but outsource it to groups like pure in heart. The refusal of religious schools to distribute material from groups dealing with homophobia on the grounds of ethos. The distribution of pro-life information to primary school children.

ABC101

lazygal wrote: »

Forcing children not of the dominant faith to be indoctrinated and wear religious symbols such as crosses on uniforms. The time spent on indoctrination which would be better spent doing something useful. The fact that despite attempts some schools don't teach students about their sexuality properly but outsource it to groups like pure in heart. The refusal of religious schools to distribute material from groups dealing with homophobia on the grounds of ethos. The distribution of pro-life information to primary school children.

Is that it???? Is that the SUM total of your list of negative points... which obviously greatly outweigh all the teachings about English, IRish, Maths, Science, Geography, History, Tech Drawing, and numerous other subjects????

My God.... well I never... the shock horror of having to learn all these subjects with a tiny cross stitched into my jumper.

I would perfer Not to be educated... if I had my way again I would prefer to remain ignorant than to be put through such torture.

Being more serious and less sarcastic... your propensity to highlight these very minor things and ignore the great good that education has done for MILLIONS of Irish over the last 200 years is disappointing.

You require to recalibrate your priorites.

Furthermore... if all these things which you quote in your post above are True and horrific.... how come there are only a handful of people such as yourself who are so vocal?

lazygal wrote: »

Forcing children not of the dominant faith to be indoctrinated and wear religious symbols such as crosses on uniforms. The time spent on indoctrination which would be better spent doing something useful. The fact that despite attempts some schools don't teach students about their sexuality properly but outsource it to groups like pure in heart. The refusal of religious schools to distribute material from groups dealing with homophobia on the grounds of ethos. The distribution of pro-life information to primary school children.

Do you understand what the Constitution says about education?

Do you understand what Catholic ethos is in a Catholic school?

Do you understand that if parents want their children educated in a Catholic school that is their right?

Who are you do decide on what proper sex education is?

No one is forcing you to send you children to a Catholic school if that is not what you want. You have every right to educate your children at home, yourself, answerable to no one but the Department of Education in this life and God in the next.

It's handy that the churches control education so they can continue to peddle the line that we need to thank them for saving us all from ignorance and be grateful for the book learning because the state would never have bothered. It's also handy that the churches indoctrinate children to.save their parents the bother and churn out children who've been taught church doctrine is fact so the cycle can continue. I'm interested how you can call me blind when you have the attitude that you need to be graceful for education, something which is a very basic right, not a favour to be conferred by private interests like.churches. I feel sorry for you that you feel you have to remain grateful for something that you deserve, despite the churches telling you it's only.because of them you're able to read and write.

Festus wrote: »

Do you understand what the Constitution says about education?

Do you understand what Catholic ethos is in a Catholic school?

Do you understand that if parents want their children educated in a Catholic school that is their right?

Who are you do decide on what proper sex education is?

No one is forcing you to send you children to a Catholic school if that is not what you want. You have every right to educate your children at home, yourself, answerable to no one but the Department of Education in this life and God in the next.

Would you home school if your children had no choice of school but that of no denomination?

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Atheists (at least myself and people I know) do not believe there is no god.

Therefore you are agnostic. Thank you.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Let's see...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics
"The first law of thermodynamics is a version of the law of conservation of energy, adapted for thermodynamic systems. The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed."

So your previous posting regarding matter/energy was completely wrong.

energy can be neither created nor destroyed so this refutes the poster who said that nothing lasts forever as energy does according to the laws of physics last forever.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

That page contains, among others, two sections, one for a closed universe, one for an open universe. If there was a scientific consensus for a closed universe (as you said, although not using the term consensus), why would that page contain the section on an open universe, or not say something like "an open universe has been refuted"?
...you were saying?

If the universe is open it means it has surroundings and whatever is in those surroundings interacts with the universe. If this is true what are the surroundings and what is interacting with this universe?

RikuoAmero wrote: »

I'm looking at several sites discussing the topic, and so far, all of them say either flat or open universe. None of them say closed.

Whether the universe is open or not has no effect on the ability to create or destroy energy as ultimately all open systems are surrounded by other systems until you have one massive closed system or the universe is infinite. If the universe is infinite it is closed because infinity has no surroundings. If the universe is open as far as energy is concerned it means that energy can be transferred in or out. An open system still does not allow for the creation or destruction of energy.

What were you saying?

lazygal wrote: »

Would you home school if your children had no choice of school but that of no denomination?

yes

lazygal wrote: »

You're blind to the many negative aspects of one religion dominating state education.

The fact that there are more Catholic schools than any others is surely down to the demographics?

Are you suggesting that there should be equal numbers of denominational schools or are you suggesting that all schools should be secular atheist?
Or are you suggesting that the numbers of particular denominational, pre-denominational and non denominational schools should be somehow manipulated by the state?

Either way I'm not sure I appreciate your particular form of democracy.

I don't suppose anyone else wants to get back to the topic of discussion - existence of god?

Make your claim and state your case. Supporting evidence would be appreciated

I'm someone who pokes holes in other people's positive claims. Which is what I've been doing this whole time. Think of me as the guy who plays black in chess.

Festus wrote: »

The fact that there are more Catholic schools than any others is surely down to the demographics?

Are you suggesting that there should be equal numbers of denominational schools or are you suggesting that all schools should be secular atheist?
Or are you suggesting that the numbers of particular denominational, pre-denominational and non denominational schools should be somehow manipulated by the state?

Either way I'm not sure I appreciate your particular form of democracy.

The majority are Caucasian. Suppose we had schools which favoured Caucasian children, would that form of democracy be ok?

lazygal wrote: »

The majority are Caucasian. Suppose we had schools which favoured Caucasian children, would that form of democracy be ok?

Are you equating racism with freedom of religion and freedom of conscience?

RikuoAmero wrote: »

I'm someone who pokes holes in other people's positive claims. Which is what I've been doing this whole time. Think of me as the guy who plays black in chess.

So what you are really saying is you are negative and are only interested in destruction.

Are you afraid to play white?

Festus wrote: »

Are you equating racism with freedom of religion and freedom of conscience?

No, I'm asking which majority interests determination school enrolment policy. Why is differentiation based on race different from religion?

tommy2bad

lazygal wrote: »

No, I'm asking which majority interests determination school enrolment policy. Why is differentiation based on race different from religion?

The element of choice! I can not choose my race.

Festus wrote: »

So what you are really saying is you are negative and are only interested in destruction.

Are you afraid to play white?

Nope. I don't like it when other people don't question some of their most closely held beliefs. As Bertrand Russell said "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted."
I do that for other people.

lazygal wrote: »

No, I'm asking which majority interests determination school enrolment policy. Why is differentiation based on race different from religion?

Perhaps you can clarify what your issue is - the majority of schools in this country are Catholic because the majority of people living in this country claim to be Catholic. Race is irrelevant and I don't see where you are going with enrolment policies.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Nope. I don't like it when other people don't question some of their most closely held beliefs.

Do you question your most closely held beliefs on atheism?

Or do you prefer us to do that for you?

Festus wrote: »

Do you question your most closely held beliefs on atheism?

Since atheism is a position on a question
Q: Have I been convinced there is a god?
A: No

then I do not have a belief. There is nothing there for me to actually question. For me, atheism is not a belief. It's a lack of belief in the positive claim there is a god. It is not the same as a a positive belief in the negative claim there is no god.

Festus wrote: »

Perhaps you can clarify what your issue is - the majority of schools in this country are Catholic because the majority of people living in this country claim to be Catholic. Race is irrelevant and I don't see where you are going with enrolment policies.

Why is the majority religion legitimate as a reason for school enrolment and patronage but the majority race isn't?

Festus wrote: »

Do you question your most closely held beliefs on atheism?

Or do you prefer us to do that for you?

Not believing there is any such thing as a God is pretty much all the questions I need to ask. Do you ever wonder if you'rd worshiping God in the wrong way and question whether another Christian denomination might really be the correct one?

lazygal wrote: »

Why is the majority religion legitimate as a reason for school enrolment and patronage but the majority race isn't?

because we are not racist

Your issue is still unclear. What is upsetting you about race and education?

Festus wrote: »

because we are not racist

Your issue is still unclear. What is upsetting you about race and education?

I'd like to know why religion is a legitimate reason for segregation of the education system and race isn't. Why does a majority religion get to dominate education but other majority reasons like race aren't a good reason to segregate children?