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DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

rlogue

WestBriton informs me that he obtained good DAB reception on a portable DAB radio in the foothills of the Dublin mountains.

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watty

It's also half the bit rate needed, no decent quality sets outside a car radio, x6 to x20 battery consumption compared to AM/FM.

In conclusion a waste of money for RTE and the consumer.

It's not suitable for Local Radio and benefits national Broadcasters with many stations better.

ezdmanx

I'm looking to buy a personal rechargeable radio.
I can see myself still using it in years to come and am wondering if DAB+ should be a priority? From the sounds of it DAB is going nowhere.
Also I cannot find a personal rechargeable DAB+ radio out there except for the "Philips DA1200/05" which gets bad reviews.

watty

Battery life on DAB/DAB+ is only about 5 to 6 hours unless enormous D cells. DAB has less than 50% mobile/portable coverage and apart from a couple of areas is RTE only. Bit rate is half what is need

An Alkaline battery NON-rechargeable radio will cover more wave bands, give better quality (on FM and madly sometimes on AM!) and can have 100 to 400 hours battery life. A rechargeable one will self discharge in same time period.

The only radios I use "rechargeable" are ones that transmit! There is no need for a non-DAB radio to be rechargeable.

I can't even find a decent DAB radio apart from Car Radios. They are outperformed by Tesco's £14 AM/FM Kitchen Radio (mains / battery and massive battery life, but far too small a speaker, most larger 1964 to 1990s AM/FM portable radios are better than any on the market now).

Also ergonomics for other than preset stations is useless on almost all DAB sets, none are easy to tune on FM and hardly any have enough presets for FM. Hardly any have any AM.

Mr. Rabbit

As I have said before, I'd highly recommend both the Roberts Play and the Pure Move 400D.

Both are highly portable and have rechargeable batteries as well as DAB+

Both are also excellent on FM

The Roberts Play is the better of the two, especially sound quality wise, but the Pure is extremely small and sounds good through headphones.

watty

Both have abysmal battery life and sound rubbish on built in speakers

Pure Move 400D is maybe €80! A €14 AM/FM set sounds better and x6 to x20 battery life.

Roberts Play is maybe €60! A €14 AM/FM set sounds better and x6 to x20 battery life.

Ergonomics are a disgrace.

DAB is poorer quality than FM due to the low bit rate used. There is no point to paying x4 to x6 more, having lower quality, terrible performance and poor ease of use and 1/6th to 1/20th battery life simply to have DAB.

About €12 inc postage gets a USB stick for Laptop that does DAB, DTT and FM Radio. Ironically the DTT has about x2 coverage and apart from the few commercial Mux areas, exactly the same RTE stations at exactly same quality!

ezdmanx

Going to go with the Roberts Sports 995. No DAB. Its tiny and the battery lasts weeks apparently.
Thanks Watty!

Mr. Rabbit

watty wrote: »

Both have abysmal battery life and sound rubbish on built in speakers

Pure Move 400D is maybe €80! A €14 AM/FM set sounds better and x6 to x20 battery life.

Roberts Play is maybe €60! A €14 AM/FM set sounds better and x6 to x20 battery life.

Ergonomics are a disgrace.

DAB is poorer quality than FM due to the low bit rate used. There is no point to paying x4 to x6 more, having lower quality, terrible performance and poor ease of use and 1/6th to 1/20th battery life simply to have DAB.

About €12 inc postage gets a USB stick for Laptop that does DAB, DTT and FM Radio. Ironically the DTT has about x2 coverage and apart from the few commercial Mux areas, exactly the same RTE stations at exactly same quality!

There is no AM broadcasting in Ireland apart from Spirit Radio on 549 kHz. In a few years AM broadcasting throughout Europe will be a thing of the past.

The sound quality on the Roberts play is excellent, and easily rivals any AM/FM radio. It also has DAB+ and so can receive the commercial DAB multiplexes in the ROI.

Much of the RTE DAB mux is at 160 kbps so sound quality should be fine.

FM is also excellent. Extremely sensitive and selective.

Even DAB at 64 kbps on the Roberts play sounds not that bad.

As I have said, the Pure Move 400D doesn't sound as good, but it's no worse than any other radio of that size.

Mr. Rabbit

Both have abysmal battery life and sound rubbish on built in speakers

Not on the ones I own.

watty

You obviously don't have proper radio sets to compare.

watty

Most DAB is 128k or Less. 256K is real equivalent to FM, 192K is minimum for decent Stereo.

Very very many AM stations can be received in most of Ireland in East, and quite a few in all of Ireland, very many more at night.

The power consumption of DAB sets versus a decent AM/FM set is incontrovertible fact. It's simply a lie to claim good battery life on them compared to FM. 64K Mono is absolutely ghastly FACT, near telephone quality.

The distortion is bad with 160K stereo and terrible with 128K. But if you have a typical DAB set with 50 cent 3" to 3.5" speaker(s) then it won't sound much different to FM on same set.

There are very few decent portable radios on the market. It's totally fact that DAB sets cost x5 to x10 more, use typically x6 more power (x20 on headphones) and are often poorer quality than non-DAB sets. DAB itself is transmitted at too low a bit rate and from far too few transmitters. Transmission of DAB is also too costly for Local stations.
The reason for poor bit rate is that otherwise RTE would need 2 x Mux instead of one, which would double cost. They have tried to fit as many (mostly nearly automated) extra stations into the single Mux in a pathetic effort to create a unique selling point. But the DTT signal is better nationwide, a DTT chip set now uses less power and DTT currently has same RTE Stations at same bit rate.

There is thus no point at all to DAB.

Mr. Rabbit

watty wrote: »

You obviously don't have proper radio sets to compare.

I have many analogue and DAB sets with which to compare.

Both the Roberts Play and Pure Move 400D are good radios with great battery life and excellent FM reception.

Mr. Rabbit

There are very few decent portable radios on the market

The ones I've heard in Currys all sound fine and better than most analogue AM/FM radios (of which there are very few now).

The distortion is bad with 160K stereo and terrible with 128K.

I haven't noticed anything at either at 160 kbps, 128 kbps, or 112 kbps.

Very very many AM stations can be received in most of Ireland in East, and quite a few in all of Ireland, very many more at night.

Maybe along the east coast with over spill from the UK, or in border areas from NI, but not in the west of Ireland and not for much longer elsewhere.

The BBC is committed to phasing out AM, as is Ofcom. Many of the high powered European stations will be closing down on MW/LW over the next few years.

There is thus no point at all to DAB.

Whether you or I like it or not the future's digital , whether online or DAB. Many European countries are moving their stations off AM and onto DAB+.

A lot of people now listen to the radio online via apps on their mobile phone or tablet.

watty

No, if the Future is DAB/DAB+ plus then Radio has no future.

There are ZERO decent Radios in Currys last time I looked.

A lot of people now listen to the radio online via apps on their mobile phone or tablet.

A tiny minority of radio listeners. It's absolutely not scaleable, and not free, nor possible all day. It's complementary to Radio Broadcast.
WiFi is tethered and Mobile thousands of times more expensive than AM as a Medium for Radio
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/

This is purely arrogance and cost saving. Digital Radio is a failure of Usability. It is also anti-competitive benefiting only National Multichannel stations. They will have more organised opposition to this stupidity when they try and kill VHF-FM

Mr. Rabbit

Absolute Radio 90's now on NI local mux. 80 kbps mono.

Magic (London) replaces Absolute 90's on D1 from 5th January. Smooth Radio Xmas will be replaced by Smooth Extra from 27th December. Premier Christian Radio may be replaced by Heart Extra from March.

lertsnim

Why would they put a 90s music station in mono?

Souriau

Lack of space, cost of bandwidth, more station at lower quality sound.
I given up on DAB because of cost of replacement DAB radio and not many places have coverage when travelling in car.
Most radio station on UK DAB are packed in and most are in mono.

Mr. Rabbit

Souriau wrote: »

Lack of space, cost of bandwidth, more station at lower quality sound.
I given up on DAB because of cost of replacement DAB radio and not many places have coverage when travelling in car.
Most radio station on UK DAB are packed in and most are in mono.

More likely because Absolute 90's will be at 80 kbps on other UK local muxes.

Heat radio was initially at 112 kbps stereo when it started a few years back (replacing the space left by 3C and Primetime Radio) but dropped to 80 kbps mono to fall in line with the rest of the UK

Absolute 90's is only 64 kbps on Digital One.

watty

Denmark, a leading DAB proponent is looking at abandoning it, especially the Move to DAB+ as both are rubbish.

They are looking at using 1.7MHz DVB-T2 as well as existing TV DVB-T2 for Digital radio.

watty

lertsnim wrote: »

Why would they put a 90s music station in mono?

Because DAB is too expensive. That's why only RTE is on most of Irish DAB, the established Commercial Stations don't want it and why RTE is only using one Mux instead of two.

I rechecked. Curries, Tesco etc have no quality radio sets at all. Tesco's €14 Kitchen radio (which isn't great) is still not only only "best" but best value.

Mr. Rabbit

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Absolute Radio 90's now on NI local mux. 80 kbps mono.

Magic (London) replaces Absolute 90's on D1 from 5th January. Smooth Radio Xmas will be replaced by Smooth Extra from 27th December. Premier Christian Radio may be replaced by Heart Extra from March.

Absolute Classic Rock along with Kisstory also due to appear on the NI mux shortly:

http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/radio-broadcast-licensing/digital-radio/mux-variation-requests

Mr. Rabbit

They are looking at using 1.7MHz DVB-T2 as well as existing TV DVB-T2 for Digital radio.

Any 1.7 MHZ DVB T2 portable radios available on the market yet ???????

Mr. Rabbit

I rechecked. Curries, Tesco etc have no quality radio sets at all. Tesco's €14
Kitchen radio (which isn't great) is still not only only "best" but best value.

Lots of quality DAB radios out there, according to What HiFi.

http://www.whathifi.com/products/hi-fi/radios

Because DAB is too expensive. That's why only RTE is on most of Irish DAB, the
established Commercial Stations don't want it and why RTE is only using one Mux
instead of two.

But not as expensive as maintaining a decent AM radio network which is why most European countries (including the ROI) are closing AM down in favour of DAB+

Clearly, you simply don't like DAB.

watty

Rubbish unscientific listing on WhatHiFi
Maybe ONE of those might be comparable to a mid range 1980s portable!

But not as expensive as maintaining a decent AM radio network which is why most European countries (including the ROI) are closing AM down in favour of DAB+

Actually that simply isn't true for SAME coverage.
Most countries are closing AM simply to save money in favour of FM. Some are doing DAB.

It's not a matter of disliking DAB. It's an obsolete over hyped tech that only benefits a National broadcaster that wants to crush local FM by having their existing stations and a bunch of semi-automated "extra stations". Even FM coverage, which no-where matches AM is far better than DAB. They need about x6 as many low lower power fill in in UK for DAB to match VHF-FM Coverage.

It's proven you need 265K MP2 (DAB) or 192K AAC (DAB+) to equal FM quality.

The power consumption means it's impractical for any real portable.

Clearly some people believe lies of BBC and think Digital is always better than Analogue.

Sam Russell

The benefit that digital has over analogue is that the engineering standard defines the quality of the transmission, while in analogue it only defines the best possible (and unattainable) that can be achieved. At all stages of an analogue system noise is introduced that degrades performance, while digital systems can recover a certain amount of loss.

DAB is heavy on power (currently) and is defined at a low level of performance. It is only useful to allow lots of channels to be crammed into one mux.

FM is cheap and flexible for both transmitter and receiver. DAB is not for either.

reboot

watty wrote: »

Rubbish unscientific listing on WhatHiFi
Maybe ONE of those might be comparable to a mid range 1980s portable!

Actually that simply isn't true for SAME coverage.
Most countries are closing AM simply to save money in favour of FM. Some are doing DAB.

It's not a matter of disliking DAB. It's an obsolete over hyped tech that only benefits a National broadcaster that wants to crush local FM by having their existing stations and a bunch of semi-automated "extra stations". Even FM coverage, which no-where matches AM is far better than DAB. They need about x6 as many low lower power fill in in UK for DAB to match VHF-FM Coverage.

It's proven you need 265K MP2 (DAB) or 192K AAC (DAB+) to equal FM quality.

The power consumption means it's impractical for any real portable.

Clearly some people believe lies of BBC and think Digital is always better than Analogue.

You make some very good points as usual, the US seemed to get great value from AM transmissions, I also find the Dab light Tx in my area has the Asian service, but not local station BBC Radio Ulster. The lack of marketing the product came to the fore recently when I asked the large Radio and TV store in Newcastle for a Dab set for a friend. The guy in the shop said they don't stock Dab as it couldn't be received in the area. I pointed out that the TX was half a mile away and had been transmitting the service for two years.

Mickey Mike

I have been following DAB reports for a few years now and really its not looking great. Tests and trials have been going on since 2006. What does it say about it, basically this platform is a heap of ****, that's my understanding in the short and long run, they don't know what there doing.
AM broadcast will definitely go in a few years, long wave 252 was to stop on the 19th Jan. I hope FM radio will stay with us for many years until a credible format is put in place.
My best bet is Digital Radio Mondiale Plus (DRM+) VHF Band 1 for Ireland. This technology must not be over looked as it is much cheaper and greener than DAB and will sort this mess out for once.
What do you think guys?

The Cush

Mickie Mike wrote: »

My best bet is Digital Radio Mondiale Plus (DRM+) VHF Band 1 for Ireland. This technology must not be over looked as it is much cheaper and greener than DAB and will sort this mess out for once.
What do you think guys?

The future of radio in Europe is harmonised DAB/DAB+ in Band III. Norway is switching off FM around 2017. Switzerland's radio DSO is 2020-24, Denmark about 2019. Germany, Holland, UK have over 90% national digital radio coverage with no fixed dates for DSO.

Sweden looking at 2022-24 for DSO with decision this year. France DAB+ coverage about 20%, regulator decision later this year.

DAB rolling out in Poland 49%, Italy 65% coverage.

Mr. Rabbit

My best bet is Digital Radio Mondiale Plus (DRM+)

Indeed, if only we had some affordable receivers to listen to DRM/DRM+

Like it or not, the Cush is right.

The UK has invested heavily in DAB and it's looking increasingly likely it'll move to DAB+ over the next few years, at least in part.

FM will probably remain for a while yet in many countries.

RTE need to roll out DAB across the ROI, at least to all main transmitter sites along with one commercial multiplex.

h7nlrp2v0g5u48

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Indeed, if only we had some affordable receivers to listen to DRM/DRM+

Like it or not, the Cush is right.

The UK has invested heavily in DAB and it's looking increasingly likely it'll move to DAB+ over the next few years, at least in part.

FM will probably remain for a while yet in many countries.

RTE need to roll out DAB across the ROI, at least to all main transmitter sites along with one commercial multiplex.

The reason RTE won't roll out DAB is that they want the commercial radio sector to come on board but they say it's too expensive. I can't understand why RTE don't go ahead like you said and roll out DAB across the main transmitters and maybe add a couple of extra stations to encourage take up.

Sam Russell

They could benefit by making the quality of the audio better by using DAB+ and higher bitrates.