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Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

Dave!

So which one of yiz was it?

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shruikan2553

Cabaal wrote: »

Spot on,

I know a number of people who identify as catholic and the viewpoints vary MASSIVELY.

- One believes the sex abuse situation is blown out of proportion and its just people looking for attention. Most of it didn't happen.
- Only two go to mass every week, the rest only do births, deaths, marriages and Christmas.
- Majority are pro-choice
- All have no problem with contraception (even the one who doesn't believe the sex abuse claims)
- Most are pro marriage equality
- All including the uber religious people have no problem with couples living together and sex before marriage
- One of the uber religious people that goes to mass every week without fail hated the last pope, and I mean hated. Didn't like him or pay attention to anything he said.

So unlike 1970's Ireland its evident that most "catholic" people don't really care for the church's teachings on alot of real life, day to day issues that the church has clear rules on.

The most religious person I know has children and isnt married. Cant allow gay people to get married though. The mother is now using better contraception.

Religion, its great when its not you following it, doesnt matter if its easier for you not to.

Cabaal

swampgas wrote: »

It was in 1979 (35 years ago) when quarter of a million people were turning out to see the Pope, that this age group were in their twenties. I imagine the changes they have experienced since then are quite dramatic.

They might get 250k these days if he visited, but I'd wager that easily over 60% would be people from other European country's.

I've always made it clear to my wife, if the pope visits Ireland I'll be taking time off work to protest against his visit.

I'd wager that I won't be the only one protesting either

Cabaal

swampgas wrote: »

Except that the label "Catholic" has become almost meaningless: we can infer almost nothing from such self-identification in terms of values, habits, or attitudes.

Someone who self-identifies as Catholic may be pro-divorce, pro-contraception, pro-Gay Rights, and might go to mass at Christmas and Easter.

Similarly, we could imagine that a lot of Irish "Catholics" might not care about a cross being cut down, when they are so out of sync with the church on other arguably more important issues.

Spot on,

I know a number of people who identify as catholic and the viewpoints vary MASSIVELY.

- One believes the sex abuse situation is blown out of proportion and its just people looking for attention. Most of it didn't happen.
- Only two go to mass every week, the rest only do births, deaths, marriages and Christmas.
- Majority are pro-choice
- All have no problem with contraception (even the one who doesn't believe the sex abuse claims)
- Most are pro marriage equality
- All including the uber religious people have no problem with couples living together and sex before marriage
- One of the uber religious people that goes to mass every week without fail hated the last pope, and I mean hated. Didn't like him or pay attention to anything he said.

So unlike 1970's Ireland its evident that most "catholic" people don't really care for the church's teachings on alot of real life, day to day issues that the church has clear rules on.

Hotblack Desiato

SpaceTime wrote: »

I constantly encounter people who used to be priests or who were briefly "in the nuns" who are in their late 50s to 60s and were the first generation of mass university education in the late 60s and early 70s.

It's like they're liberal but within a very conservative framework.

Sadly there are a lot of people of that generation out there who were badly damaged by the RCC, and not just those physically or sexually abused in homes and the like.

The ex-seminary and ex-convent ones who 'failed' and 'shamed' their family. Who went in there with difficulties with relationships and sexuality and no doubt came out far worse. Who got no support when they left.

When I was a kid, there was a neighbour's son spoken of in hushed tones among the adults, he was in a seminary for years and went right through third level in it (university education was unheard of there and then) then pulled out at the last minute*. It was regarded as shameful, as if he'd cheated the church out of the college fees. Dublin, late 70s. He went off to live in England because of it.

Michael Harding's writings in the Irish Times are very good. Even now it seems he still hasn't quite got over the adolescent experience of wanting to be a priest and believe in it all, but then choosing a different life. It's certainly marked him.

* not a pun, honest.

Hotblack Desiato

swampgas wrote: »

It was in 1979 (35 years ago) when quarter of a million people were turning out to see the Pope, that this age group were in their twenties. I imagine the changes they have experienced since then are quite dramatic.

A friend of mine is ten years older than me, he was at the pope's youth mass in Galway.

Said the campsite was littered with used condoms...

expectationlost

Carrauntoohil cross footage ‘genuine’

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/carrauntoohil-cross-footage-genuine-300797.html

explorer Mike O’Shea. He said those responsible for cutting it down should have protested by other means. “It was a publicity stunt to try to get their message out there, but it served no purpose and people nowadays have plenty of other means of voicing protests,’’ he said.

but do they have others means to educate their children non-religiously?

magicbastarder

swampgas wrote: »

It was in 1979 (35 years ago) when quarter of a million people

just to correct this - one and a quarter million people.
i only remember the massive lollipop i was given to keep me quiet.

SpaceTime

swampgas wrote: »

It was in 1979 (35 years ago) when quarter of a million people were turning out to see the Pope, that this age group were in their twenties. I imagine the changes they have experienced since then are quite dramatic.

And if you think about what their parent's generation was like - people whose formative years were in the 1950s - well they might feel quite radical themselves by comparison.

They probably do, considering they would have pushed through things like equal pay for women, condoms being available without a prescription and all that.
It doesn't mean they not very conservative by modern standards though.

Considering that my grandmother said that in parts of Dublin in the 1950s it was shocking to be seen:
"out in your figure" (not wearing a shapeless coat to hide your figure) if you were a woman.
Or "out in your hair" (without a hat)

swampgas

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think though there's a definite group of 1970s era Irish types who are of that: real life Father Ted, UCD, Maynooth, Mary I type busy body 1970s "social Catholics" and they're very much still influential in the top of the establishment at present.

It was in 1979 (35 years ago) when quarter of a million people were turning out to see the Pope, that this age group were in their twenties. I imagine the changes they have experienced since then are quite dramatic.

And if you think about what their parent's generation was like - people whose formative years were in the 1950s - well they might feel quite radical themselves by comparison.

SpaceTime

I think though there's a definite group of 1970s era Irish types who are of that: real life Father Ted, UCD, Maynooth, Mary I type busy body 1970s "social Catholics" and they're very much still influential in the top of the establishment at present.

They've an outlook that's a bit like that happy hippy Catholic religion teacher view of the world. Liberal on the surface but in reality not at all.

I'd exclude UCC and NUIG graduates from that label as they've always been secular and I think Trinity is just a bit more liberal despite being religious.

I constantly encounter people who used to be priests or who were briefly "in the nuns" who are in their late 50s to 60s and were the first generation of mass university education in the late 60s and early 70s.

It's like they're liberal but within a very conservative framework.

There's a similar protestant grouping too, also from that era. Its a very much patronising, controlling view of the world.

I think a lot of those people make up the policy making layer of Irish society and will do for another decade or so. They're still very much the power wielding generation although many are hitting retirement age now.

If you're in your late 20s to 30s they're likely to be your parents generation. If you're in your early 20s you've 80s parents who aren't likely to be quite as influenced by that buttoned up period of Irish society.

I think we've come a LONG way in 20 years but I think you'll see much deeper change as those of us in our 20s and 30s now hit our 40s and 50s and the current lot head off to St Clabbert's.

The other aspect is that the liberals of older generations are "coming out of the closet" where as they had been marginalised or just towed the line in the past.

My own granny was definitely born 60 years too early - liberal, open-minded, not religious at all... But it wasn't until the 1990s she started to really be open about that.

Peregrinus

kylith wrote: »

They say that they're Catholics, but is it because they actually believe in the Catholic god and the churches teachings, or do they say it because Mammy said they were Catholic? , , ,

I take your point. But we're in the A&A form, where there are regular threads complaining (without any actual evidence) that the Catholic church "counts" as Catholic people who do not consider themselves Catholic. Here we have Pope Brian decreeing that people who do consider themselves Catholic are, in reality, not Catholic.

If we have any pretence at all to respect the dignity and autonomy of the individual, the starting point has to be that people's identification as Catholic means something, quite possilbly something that is significant to them. We can't just arbitrarily spout a caricature of selected Catholic teachings, assume without evidence that they don't accept those particular teachings as we have caricatured them, and decree that their identification is false.

If we genuinely care to know what their identification as Catholic means to them, we have to ask them. If we haven't done that, then we have no right to dismiss their identification as inauthentic or meaningless. And if we do dismiss their self-identification, then our complaints about how the Catholic church allegedly counts its membership are just so much hypocritical cant. Just sayin'.

Brian Shanahan

SpaceTime wrote: »

I actually genuinely think that the younger generations (I mean under about 40) tend to not be quite so badly impacted by this issue as they tend to define Irishness quite differently to their ancestors.

I'm fully convinced that once my parent's generation dies (my mother's in her seventies, my father's hitting retirement age), catholicism dies in Ireland. If you look at the vocations, nobody's joining and the average age for the priesthood is 65, we're soon going to be in a position where if the current school system continues (I'm not worried about mass attendance, they could close down half the churches in the country tomorrow without significantly inconveniencing attendees) half the primary schools in the country won't have suitable patrons according to department rules (which will probably be what'll actually secularise Irish education).

Most young people don't go to mass and are only nominal catholics because they don't want to disappoint mammy or granny. We'll see the rise of the openly cultural catholic, which like cultural jews, won't share any beliefs with the religion and be open about it, but which will identify as being linked and maybe even participate in some ceremonies for cultural and historical solidarity reasons (we have that now, but people are unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the situation).

swampgas

Peregrinus wrote: »

Deeply flawed and biassed as it may be, it's based on people's self-identification. Call me a dangerous liberal, but on the whole I have a view that census participants have a better right to determine their own religious identity, and can do so with more authority, than you. If they say they're Catholics, I really don't care that Brian Shanahan says they're not.

Except that the label "Catholic" has become almost meaningless: we can infer almost nothing from such self-identification in terms of values, habits, or attitudes.

Someone who self-identifies as Catholic may be pro-divorce, pro-contraception, pro-Gay Rights, and might go to mass at Christmas and Easter.

Similarly, we could imagine that a lot of Irish "Catholics" might not care about a cross being cut down, when they are so out of sync with the church on other arguably more important issues.

lazygal

I think it is the case, as was said before, that those of us who 'turn our back' on the faith we were raised in make others think about their faith, and that can be uncomfortable. I have no problem saying we're not catholic because we don't believe in god, don't believe there's any issue with IVF, abortion, gay rights and sex outside marriage. When people then say they don't have a problem with those things either, and they have 'their own faith', it's easy enough to ask why I should follow the strictures of the sacraments according to their pick and mix approach. I mean, if there's people calling themselves catholic who don't believe in God, that says more about how Ireland as a nation confused religious preferences with nationality.

SpaceTime

Well, I know that despite my own folks being quite open minded, I still get the odd gibe about not being religious from one relative and I find that quite typical in Ireland.

This lady is not religious herself - never goes to mass, never prays, talks about how it's all nonsense and so on. Then when it comes to something like a relative deciding not to baptise their kids, she laid on a huge guilt trip about 'the family tradition' and cracked out the grandmother's christening robe and got all nostalgic about various religious members of the family who had been Bishops and stuff in the 19th century. She then lectured the parents of the kid about how they were turning their back on the family's heritage!

One of the parents isn't even from Europe and has a totally different outlook on religion entirely and the other is an atheist.
Yet, this relative seems to think it's fine to stick her ore in and manipulate, completely hypocritically.

I find she can go from completely liberal and open minded to suddenly switching back to 1970s Catholic Official Ireland officiousness in the blink of an eye.

She told them: Oh she won't be able to get into school. When they pointed out that they'd resolve that : Oh but what about when all the other *normal* little girls make their holy communion. She'll be left out and she'll feel terrible. (implication: you're horrible people who are going to deprive your little girl of a lovely dress)

I also had one British-Irish (has lived there for decades) relative take me aside and lecture me about how I was "worse than an Englishman" because I'd 'turned my back' on my heritage!
Now, for someone who never went to mass himself, lived in England for 40+ years, spoke with an English accent and was a total anglophile in most senses, I thought it was a rather bizarrely hypocritical statement to make and deeply offensive to me, as an Irishman and also to English people too!

To be quite honest, I find people like that just mindbogglingly conflicted. It's like they're locked into a notion that Irish = Catholic and they cannot see past that.

That's Ireland though - a land with a very deep and long-standing identity crisis.

I actually genuinely think that the younger generations (I mean under about 40) tend to not be quite so badly impacted by this issue as they tend to define Irishness quite differently to their ancestors.

Dades

jank wrote: »

obplayer wrote: »

So if you have never known about something which would upset you but then find out about it, you should still not be upset because you should have known sooner? So if I find my wife has been having sex with the neighbour then, because I never knew, when I do know I should be ok with it? 'Shure it did me no harm for all these years!'

If you are comparing the emotional distress of finding your wife/husband in bed with a neighbour to finding out that there is a cross on a mountain that you never climbed than I frankly do not know what to say.

obplayer wrote: »

jank wrote: »

That is a dangerous road to take. What you are essentially saying is that because 'A' happened 'B' will take place and is somewhat justified until 'C' happens. This is the exact mindset that kicked of 30 years of murder and slaughter by the PIRA in the north, all in our name apparently.

If you are comparing 30 years of murder and mayhem to cutting down an ugly cross on a mountain then I frankly do not know what to say.

I see what you did there.

I'll take this opportunity to reiterate the difference between comparing something and equating something. I wish people would understand this more.

kylith

Peregrinus wrote: »

Deeply flawed and biassed as it may be, it's based on people's self-identification. Call me a dangerous liberal, but on the whole I have a view that census participants have a better right to determine their own religious identity, and can do so with more authority, than you. If they say they're Catholics, I really don't care that Brian Shanahan says they're not.

They say that they're Catholics, but is it because they actually believe in the Catholic god and the churches teachings, or do they say it because Mammy said they were Catholic? If someone says they're Catholic but they don't believe in god, or that Jesus was his son, or that pre-marital sex is sinful, or that practicing homosexuals are going to hell, or that crackers and booze magically turn into flesh and wine, or any of the other Catholic teaching then are they actually Catholic? I mean, I could identify as homosexual and say that I have more authority to know than you do, and some people would argue that you have no right to say that I'm not, and that I know my own sexual orientation better than you do, but if I don't find people of my own gender sexually appealing then am I actually homosexual, or am I just wrong?

SpaceTime

I think Ireland really needs to start looking forward at what kind of society it wants to be.
Like it or not, the religious aspect of Irish society has caused a lot of problems in the past, continues to do so in Northern Ireland and has the potential to cause serious social exclusion in the future as society becomes more and more religiously diverse while public services continue to be delivered through the Catholic Church and to a lesser extent the C of I.

We need to plan for the future, not get locked in some status quo mess.

Two big issues that I see all the time are:

1) The primary and secondary education systems (Take a leaf out of UCC and NUIG's book.. they both work fine as secular universities and have done for a *long* time).

2) Local government - it's weak, unaccountable and remote. The result is that instead of having a structure at local level that's accessible to everyone, instead you've a lot of dependence on 'parish' facilities in many communities. While they're open (usually), there's an element of throw back to the established church mentality about them.

I'd really like to see schools and community facilities being something that are actually owned and run by local communities, for local communities and not by a 3rd party of any type. I think it encourages ownership of the facilities from a psychological point of view, provides community space that helps cohesion and might actually bring people together a lot more.

Peregrinus

Deeply flawed and biassed as it may be, it's based on people's self-identification. Call me a dangerous liberal, but on the whole I have a view that census participants have a better right to determine their own religious identity, and can do so with more authority, than you. If they say they're Catholics, I really don't care that Brian Shanahan says they're not.

Brian Shanahan

J Mysterio wrote: »

Patronising the majority of the population no less. So arrogant.

No, catholicism is not in a majority position in this country. Regular mass attendance is only at 25% of the population, and old. Any time a detailed survey is done it is found the majority don't think of religion, and definitely don't follow church rules.

If religious patrinage of schools was dropped for next September, in five years baptism rates will fall off a cliff as school admittance is the biggest factor, followed by grandparental pressure.

If the rcc were a true majority, none of these facts would hold true. Just because the deeply flawed and biased statistical measure, the census, says something that doesn't hold that its true.

Cabaal

katydid wrote: »

ONLY your opinion...

Actually, I share the view.
So you claim it's only her opinion is incorrect.

jank

seamus wrote: »

I see you've made the exact error I was calling out in my post by assuming there was any link between this act and atheism, or Atheism Ireland and anti-Catholicism in general.

Not at all. I just mentioned that both sides engage in this activity in pillaring and demeaning a made up caricature of the opposition. That Kerry FF politician engaged in it as well AI engaged in it.

And they're sick of it. Incidents like this in rural Ireland will become more commonplace until the catholic church is removed from all state schools

Using a term 'removed' would normally mean by force.

One can point out the reasoning behind actions without condoning them.

One can do this with everything and anything however, your post read more like excusing this activity rather than condemning it.

It was like saying in the 80's, " I don't agree with the IRA blowing people up in shopping centers but the sooner the Brits are out of Ireland then the sooner this stops!"

This is what your post comes across like, pushing the blame so to speak.

jank

obplayer wrote: »

If you are comparing 30 years of murder and mayhem to cutting down an ugly cross on a mountain then I frankly do not know what to say.

Eh, no. I mentioned 'mindset' not actual events or history. I am comparing that such a thought process of legitimising crime and illegal activities by those disgruntled with the RCC can and/or may lead to an escalation and polarisation in the community.

Turtwig

gctest50 wrote: »

some middle class white bitch

.

///Mod:///.

That kind of vernacular isn't really appropriate for this forum.

seamus

jank wrote: »

That is a dangerous road to take. What you are essentially saying is that because 'A' happened 'B' will take place and is somewhat justified until 'C' happens. This is the exact mindset that kicked of 30 years of murder and slaughter by the PIRA in the north, all in our name apparently.

Actions such as these will only harden mindsets and create polarisation among the community. As I said there seems to be a big rural/urban divide in this and AI does not seem to represent the average rural non catholic as much as they would like to think.

There are better ways to go about getting the RCC out of schools then illegal activity tbh. I am sure you agree with me there. This act was pointless.

I see you've made the exact error I was calling out in my post by assuming there was any link between this act and atheism, or Atheism Ireland and anti-Catholicism in general.

One can point out the reasoning behind actions without condoning them.

obplayer

jank wrote: »

Atheism is like the new "Pagan". Anyone who's not Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Jewish is automatically a filthy baby-eating atheist.

This is kinda correct in the extreme examples. However, on the other hand any who critiques AI or this vandalism or indeed any cross being displayed in a public placed is a right wing catholic fascist. No side here is without sin, pardon the pun.

That is a dangerous road to take. What you are essentially saying is that because 'A' happened 'B' will take place and is somewhat justified until 'C' happens. This is the exact mindset that kicked of 30 years of murder and slaughter by the PIRA in the north, all in our name apparently.

Actions such as these will only harden mindsets and create polarisation among the community. As I said there seems to be a big rural/urban divide in this and AI does not seem to represent the average rural non catholic as much as they would like to think.

There are better ways to go about getting the RCC out of schools then illegal activity tbh. I am sure you agree with me there. This act was pointless.

If you are comparing 30 years of murder and mayhem to cutting down an ugly cross on a mountain then I frankly do not know what to say.

jank

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It's a fear of "what will the neighbours say". I get it quite a lot when contentious issues come up in my role with the local GAA club. You've got to remember too that rurally everybody knows you, and quite often in a parish everybody is a member of one or more of a small number of families who've been living in the same area for generations.
While people are a lot more open and free in what they say, and what they express about their true feelings, rural Ireland is only very slowly getting rid of the old bad habit of omerta.

People being more 'conservative' in rural settings is not news and is certainly not an Irish only concept. This urban/rural divide is common in almost every country in the world. From Australia to Iran, from France to China.

jank

seamus wrote: »

I like how so many people have assumed there is some atheism relevance in this whole thing.

Atheism is like the new "Pagan". Anyone who's not Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Jewish is automatically a filthy baby-eating atheist.

This is kinda correct in the extreme examples. However, on the other hand any who critiques AI or this vandalism or indeed any cross being displayed in a public placed is a right wing catholic fascist. No side here is without sin, pardon the pun.

seamus wrote: »

Now they've grown up and had families and and in order to secure a decent future for their children, they find themselves having once again to play the nice face to that same priest, who has no reason or qualification to be at all involved in education.

And they're sick of it. Incidents like this in rural Ireland will become more commonplace until the catholic church is removed from all state schools.

That is a dangerous road to take. What you are essentially saying is that because 'A' happened 'B' will take place and is somewhat justified until 'C' happens. This is the exact mindset that kicked of 30 years of murder and slaughter by the PIRA in the north, all in our name apparently.

Actions such as these will only harden mindsets and create polarisation among the community. As I said there seems to be a big rural/urban divide in this and AI does not seem to represent the average rural non catholic as much as they would like to think.

There are better ways to go about getting the RCC out of schools then illegal activity tbh. I am sure you agree with me there. This act was pointless.

jank

shruikan2553 wrote: »

By your logic then anyone who didnt see the cross being cut down cant care about it. Of course I am expecting "no no, thats different" and more moving of goalposts until we eventually get a very narrow definition that just so happens to about AI.

At least if you would just say their opinion doesnt matter because they are godless heathens we would see where you stand.

What makes you think that I am not one of those 'godless heathens'?

Just because someone disagrees with AI and the general view taken on this forum does not make them a Catholic priest.

jank

robindch wrote: »

There are at least two people, both atheists, both well known to Michael Nugent, who are from Kerry and who have been to the top of Carrauntoohil and who have seen, and are familiar, with the cross there.

I hope this calms your fear that AI is not "inclusive".

Well that is even a lamer excuse if AI put out an official line that they did not even know that this cross or similar crosses exist on the summit of Irish mountains. Shows them up as incompetent and reactive. AI not as slick as they think they are.