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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

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Pwpane

Armelodie wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything about the JMB instructing Principals to advise non-union staff to come into the school (i.e. to force them to cross the picket).
I could have gotten my wires crossed so Ill check again tomorrow, but there were a few annoyed non-union members late friday afternoon (i just caught the end of a conversation on the way to last class!)

By non-union staff do you mean teachers?

It's not within a principal's power to give a teacher a day off unless it's requested as a sick day etc. So how is it 'forcing' anyone to cross the picket? If a principal says 'stay at home' they could be accused either of illegally giving the day off or of supporting the strike.

A non-union member must make up their own mind about crossing pickets. Management can hardly encourage/discourage it.

Pwpane

hairyprincess wrote: »

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

I'm not sure what information you want from the school? It's not as if it hasn't been widely publicised (and it's on the front page of irishtimes.com again today). What else could they tell you that you don't already know?

teacher1000

Registered again coz don't want to be recognised here. as far as I can see the principal in our school is actively encouraging non union and part time staff to come into school and telling us union members that it's their personal choice and we shouldn't have any ill will about it.

He is also recommending them to come in 1/2 hour before the picket starts and furthermore recommending that they come in a different entrance to the picketed one. Any yes, he himself is a union member.

part time staff have until midnight monday if they want to join but are afraid to now in case their hours for next year will be down. A lot of these have new cid contracts but not all of them do.

evolving_doors

hairyprincess wrote: »

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

Yes but what more does a parent need to know? There's a strike on Tuesday, school's closed.

I would agree that a note of some type is sent home to those who don't listen to the news etc. But if they send it too early things could change. Several hundred letters were sent from our school so there's at least 3 hours extra work for admin staff to be considered (and they don't want to have to do it twice).

Inspector Coptoor

hairyprincess wrote: »

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

The school were leaving it late in case there was a change in plans.

School's don't exist as childcare facilities.

evolving_doors

Pwpane wrote: »

By non-union staff do you mean teachers?

It's not within a principal's power to give a teacher a day off unless it's requested as a sick day etc. So how is it 'forcing' anyone to cross the picket? If a principal says 'stay at home' they could be accused either of illegally giving the day off or of supporting the strike.

A non-union member must make up their own mind about crossing pickets. Management can hardly encourage/discourage it.

Well first off I'll try to get the story straight tomorrow (apologies in advance).

My main interest is really in terms of Union members (Which some principals and vice principals are) instructing others (non-union teachers) to cross a picket. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the usual way was to instruct non-union members to write a letter to say they were willing and able to turn up for work, but 'due to health and safety grounds' the school was shut. So in a sense it was in their power to give the 'day off' by virtue of the fact that the school would be closed (as in... front gates locked).

Also if the Principal is a union member then they must support the strike... (point in hand, our Principal and Deputy are on the roster!).

Apologies my facts of the 'overheard rant' are scant... mainly I heard the words "JMB were instructing Principals to do x,y,z".

I think I'd better open that "non-union thread again", now I'm the one who's confused.

seavill

Pwpane wrote: »

I'm not sure what information you want from the school? It's not as if it hasn't been widely publicised (and it's on the front page of irishtimes.com again today). What else could they tell you that you don't already know?

Schools were given a letter by the JMB (I think) to send out to all parents. A carefully worded letter in fairness but instructing that on H&S grounds school was going to have to close

evolving_doors

teacher1000 wrote: »

Registered again coz don't want to be recognised here. as far as I can see the principal in our school is actively encouraging non union and part time staff to come into school and telling us union members that it's their personal choice and we shouldn't have any ill will about it.

He is also recommending them to come in 1/2 hour before the picket starts and furthermore recommending that they come in a different entrance to the picketed one. Any yes, he himself is a union member.

part time staff have until midnight monday if they want to join but are afraid to now in case their hours for next year will be down. A lot of these have new cid contracts but not all of them do.

Ya thanks teacher1000 I think this is what I was talking about. Now I could appreciate if there were office staff asked to come in (to a certain extent!).
But asking other teachers to come in is a bit daft and can only serve to create ill-will. In our school a different entrance would mean climbing a wall:eek: , so it looks as if any teacher who might be coming in might have to remain within the school until the strike is over at the end of the day... doing what? croke park hours!!!

This is seriously a daft situation, and on top of that the Principal and Vice Principal could be outside with the rest of the teachers (if they are in the same union). What's the logic of this at all, why the compunction?

I understood the usual thing was to close the school on the grounds of health and safety (as Seavill said above) and the non-union teachers just stayed at home/put in for personal day/ showed up to support the picket if they liked...

So... my main question... does this 'directive' for Principals to instruct non-union members that they 'must' be physically in the school come from somewhere.. If so, is it the JMB. I know that the JMB do not support the teachers strike and also are in favour of whatever Jan O' Sullivan wants (provided it's resourced accordingly) (See here jmb-calls-on-unions-minister-to-return-to-talks.

teacher1000

I think he doesn't want any ripples or waves, just the perception of work as normal and is trying to showing powers that be that it's a tight run shop - except for a few renegade hotheads. Doesn't help that our membership rate is quite low.

r93kaey5p2izun

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

gaeilgebeo

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

he will be in the building between his picket slots!

I hope the union members are prepared to report him for breach of the directive.

r93kaey5p2izun

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I hope the union members are prepared to report him for breach of the directive.

I don't know. He was reported for being in the building during the 2009 strike and got a minor reprimand because apparently the VEC said he had to. There are a lot more non-union teachers now and also twice as many part-timers without security who would be afraid to report him - I'm in that situation myself. The more secure members of staff don't seem very bothered at all about the situation over all.

evolving_doors

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

Hmm very interesting, perhaps a quiet word with your rep about union members in breech of the picket. If your principal is a union member and 'popping into the school' for a bit!

See guidelines for Picket here (This is the ASTI so the TUI may be different!)

A strike means total withdrawal of labour; in this case for the full 24 hour
period
I Presume a Principal who is a union member can't open the school! Or be on the grounds?

&
Picketing members are obliged to report any member passing a picket or
going onto the work place. Failure to do so is itself a serious offence and
is also liable to disciplinary charges. A strike breaker should be reported without delay

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a 'management bashing' for the sake of it post. I just wonder if you are in a union then you are bloody well in a union and have to act accordingly. Otherwise then you are free to leave.

There are no sub categories of members for the purpose of a strike – all are equal –
irrespective of employment status or grade.

acequion

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

I don't know. He was reported for being in the building during the 2009 strike and got a minor reprimand because apparently the VEC said he had to. There are a lot more non-union teachers now and also twice as many part-timers without security who would be afraid to report him - I'm in that situation myself. The more secure members of staff don't seem very bothered at all about the situation over all.

It really is essential that this man be reported. It is unacceptable that young teachers,who are in an insecure enough position as it is, feel intimidated out of joining a union.The union is the only protection teachers have.

If nobody reports him,I'd be sending an anonymous letter to the union about his behaviour if I were you. I don't know if that would carry much weight,but the union need to be aware of such principals.

rainbowtrout

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

I'd echo the previous posts, but would also add that the non union teachers are contracted to teach their classes, not do other work. If they do attend for work, it's not their fault that their classes are not there to be taught.

Also instructing them to be in an hour before normal working hours is also out of order.

IMPACT have instructed their members (mainly school secretaries) not undertake any work that would normally be carried out by an ASTI/TUI member.

implausible

The position for non-union members and members of other unions is very clear - if the school is opened, they need to come in to work. Failure to do so is a break in service and as very often they are teachers covering leave or on small hours, it's unfair to put pressure on them. The TUI documents said that non-union members are to come in as this is not an all-out strike and we got a reminder email to not obstruct people coming into work. The dispute is between the TUI/ASTI and the Dept, so it should not be affecting non-union and other workers.

2011abc

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

Jeez ! He sounds like a right piece of ....work !

Inspector Coptoor

Ed Walsh is an arrogant piece of work

Mardy Bum

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Ed Walsh is an arrogant piece of work

He managed to resort to name calling which says a huge amount in a 10 minute conversation and he struggled to make one point.

Inspector Coptoor

Mardy Bum wrote: »

He managed to resort to name calling which says a huge amount in a 10 minute conversation and he struggled to make one point.

He was too busy leaning back in chair looking down his nose at McGabhann and King.
He's a clown, extolling the virtues of Finland and its education system while not mentioning how much they spend on their system

Benicetomonty

Walshe still manages to make us look better than King.

rainbowtrout

Ya and his final comment was 'Teachers don't get to decide what is taught in schools'.

HELLO, ED!!!! We are not trying to dictate what is taught, we are concerned about how what is taught will be assessed.

:mad:

evolving_doors

Well I suppose we can take solace in the fact that if they are wheeling him out then they are pretty stuck for anyone of interest.

Don't get me wrong but Ed is quite revered for building up UL as one of the first Universities since the state was founded. But leaving that aside, I don't really see what he has to offer the Irish secondary education system other than complete contempt.

amacca

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

He as too busy leaning back in chair to look down his nose at McGabhann and King.
He's a clown, extolling the virtues of Finland and its education system while not mentioning how much they spend on their system

I don't think he'd be in favour of Finnish style renumeration - in line with buying power of the wages that is…or the various other benefits of working in their system

They love all these ideas but they are not willing to pay a fair price for them or implement what is necessary to give the working conditions that would make it work

I fail to see how we can't achieve this "richness" with project and portfolio work etc that is assessed externally…..how exactly are these experiences "richer" for a student if their teacher grades their project/portfolio

the more I think about it the more the whole thing stinks afaic wouldn't there always be a suspicion amongst students/parents they were hard done by/favouritism no matter how objective we were…..nevermind unfair influence etc

why can't all these rich learning experiences be assessed externally?…it is inherently fairer while allowing other skills and competencies to be taken into account for assessment purposes which seems to be what the minister wants (or at least what she is claiming…..what she really wants is savings at the expense of a relatively fair system - fairer than it will be if this goes ahead at least)

If they succeed in hoodwinking us/parents etc they will cheapen the education system imo

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya and his final comment was 'Teachers don't get to decide what is taught in schools'.

HELLO, ED!!!! We are not trying to dictate what is taught, we are concerned about how what is taught will be assessed.

:mad:

I take your point entirely and slightly on a tangent but I actually think we should have a say in what is taught.

I feel most teachers would have come up with a superior syllabus to the new science-lite one thats been mentioned here recently at any rate.

evolving_doors

amacca wrote: »

I don't think he'd be in favour of Finnish style renumeration - in line with buying power of the wages that is…or the various other benefits of working in their system

They love all these ideas but they are not willing to pay a fair price for them or implement what is necessary to give the working conditions that would make it work

I fail to see how we can't achieve this "richness" with project and portfolio work etc that is assessed externally…..how exactly are these experiences "richer" for a student if their teacher grades their project/portfolio

the more I think about it the more the whole thing stinks afaic wouldn't there always be a suspicion amongst students/parents they were hard done by/favouritism no matter how objective we were…..nevermind unfair influence etc

why can't all these rich learning experiences be assessed externally?…it is inherently fairer while allowing other skills and competencies to be taken into account for assessment purposes which seems to be what the minister wants (or at least what she is claiming…..what she really wants is savings at the expense of a relatively fair system - fairer than it will be if this goes ahead at least)

If they succeed in hoodwinking us/parents etc they will cheapen the education system imo

At least the students are on our side... over the last week or so a good few have asked what the strike was about (some mutterings of parents talking about teachers pay/3months holidays so i took a little time out of teaching to explore the issue).

Upshot... "Teachers from this school correcting our Junior Cert????? Now wayyyyyy I'd vote for that". This was the response of ALL of the students i spoke to (I put it to them as unbiased as I could, even tried making it sound like a positive thing!!). Main point being... "teacher x really hates me so I know they are going to give me bad marks anyway."

rainbowtrout

amacca wrote: »

I take your point entirely and slightly on a tangent but I actually think we should have a say in what is taught.

I feel most teachers would have come up with a superior syllabus to the new science-lite one thats been mentioned here recently at any rate.

Oh I totally agree, I'm hugely opposed to the content (or rather, lack of content) in the proposed science syllabus, but in keeping with the thread and what the strike is about, I still think Ed Walsh is an idiot.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh I totally agree, I'm hugely opposed to the content (or rather, lack of content) in the proposed science syllabus, but in keeping with the thread and what the strike is about, I still think Ed Walsh is an idiot.

Speaking of which anyone hear from eddie hobbs yet? Sept last year he said the reason why Asti rejected Haddington road was because of PMT !

eyescreamcone

But isn't the strike about money really.

It's about teachers losing money by not correcting junior cert papers + the extra (unpaid) work in correcting summer 3rd year exams.

No sympathy here.
Maybe if ye went on strike to abolish the employment contract inequalities present in the religious schools ye might garner more public sympathy.

man_no_plan

eyescreamcone wrote: »

But isn't the strike about money really.

It's about teachers losing money by not correcting junior cert papers + the extra (unpaid) work in correcting summer 3rd year exams.

No sympathy here.
Maybe if ye went on strike to abolish the employment contract inequalities present in the religious schools ye might garner more public sympathy.

Stop the presses!!

Teachers aren't in favour of doing even more work for free!!

That's one part of it. The main part is opposition to marking our students for certification together with resourcing, educational standards and workload issues.

I'm going in for my picket duty shortly, its about time we stop up for something.