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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

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Benicetomonty

Walshe still manages to make us look better than King.

Inspector Coptoor

Mardy Bum wrote: »

He managed to resort to name calling which says a huge amount in a 10 minute conversation and he struggled to make one point.

He was too busy leaning back in chair looking down his nose at McGabhann and King.
He's a clown, extolling the virtues of Finland and its education system while not mentioning how much they spend on their system

Mardy Bum

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Ed Walsh is an arrogant piece of work

He managed to resort to name calling which says a huge amount in a 10 minute conversation and he struggled to make one point.

Inspector Coptoor

Ed Walsh is an arrogant piece of work

2011abc

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

Jeez ! He sounds like a right piece of ....work !

implausible

The position for non-union members and members of other unions is very clear - if the school is opened, they need to come in to work. Failure to do so is a break in service and as very often they are teachers covering leave or on small hours, it's unfair to put pressure on them. The TUI documents said that non-union members are to come in as this is not an all-out strike and we got a reminder email to not obstruct people coming into work. The dispute is between the TUI/ASTI and the Dept, so it should not be affecting non-union and other workers.

rainbowtrout

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

I'd echo the previous posts, but would also add that the non union teachers are contracted to teach their classes, not do other work. If they do attend for work, it's not their fault that their classes are not there to be taught.

Also instructing them to be in an hour before normal working hours is also out of order.

IMPACT have instructed their members (mainly school secretaries) not undertake any work that would normally be carried out by an ASTI/TUI member.

acequion

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

I don't know. He was reported for being in the building during the 2009 strike and got a minor reprimand because apparently the VEC said he had to. There are a lot more non-union teachers now and also twice as many part-timers without security who would be afraid to report him - I'm in that situation myself. The more secure members of staff don't seem very bothered at all about the situation over all.

It really is essential that this man be reported. It is unacceptable that young teachers,who are in an insecure enough position as it is, feel intimidated out of joining a union.The union is the only protection teachers have.

If nobody reports him,I'd be sending an anonymous letter to the union about his behaviour if I were you. I don't know if that would carry much weight,but the union need to be aware of such principals.

evolving_doors

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

Hmm very interesting, perhaps a quiet word with your rep about union members in breech of the picket. If your principal is a union member and 'popping into the school' for a bit!

See guidelines for Picket here (This is the ASTI so the TUI may be different!)

A strike means total withdrawal of labour; in this case for the full 24 hour
period
I Presume a Principal who is a union member can't open the school! Or be on the grounds?

&
Picketing members are obliged to report any member passing a picket or
going onto the work place. Failure to do so is itself a serious offence and
is also liable to disciplinary charges. A strike breaker should be reported without delay

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a 'management bashing' for the sake of it post. I just wonder if you are in a union then you are bloody well in a union and have to act accordingly. Otherwise then you are free to leave.

There are no sub categories of members for the purpose of a strike – all are equal –
irrespective of employment status or grade.

r93kaey5p2izun

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I hope the union members are prepared to report him for breach of the directive.

I don't know. He was reported for being in the building during the 2009 strike and got a minor reprimand because apparently the VEC said he had to. There are a lot more non-union teachers now and also twice as many part-timers without security who would be afraid to report him - I'm in that situation myself. The more secure members of staff don't seem very bothered at all about the situation over all.

gaeilgebeo

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

he will be in the building between his picket slots!

I hope the union members are prepared to report him for breach of the directive.

r93kaey5p2izun

Very similar is happening in my school teacher1000.

Principal is opening the building on Tuesday - this in itself is a breach of union strike directive. If the school is to open (for other workers and non-union teachers) it should be up to BOM or ETB to organise that. He has held a meeting with teachers who are not in a union and advised them that they will be in breach of contract if they do not attend for work on Tuesday. He has work set out for them to do that day and says he will be in the building between his picket slots!

These teachers and all other workers (secretaries, caretakers, SNAs, jobsbridge workers) have been told to arrive an hour early to avoid the picket. He has set work for all of them for the day.

At a union meeting on Thurdsay he said he is "very concerned" for the non-union teachers. They aren't "lucky like us" to have the union to support them and we must all make sure they don't feel bad about coming in to work. He is openly in favour of the full JC reform proposals (100% school based, teacher marked assessment) and says he feels those opposed are just holding things back and that he thinks the non-union teachers are "great". A few of those are not in a union on principle. Most are newer staff who just hadn't bothered joining - many of these want to join up now at the last minute but are afraid to on foot of the principal's comments. I myself am now concerned for my own insecure hours as a union member!

teacher1000

I think he doesn't want any ripples or waves, just the perception of work as normal and is trying to showing powers that be that it's a tight run shop - except for a few renegade hotheads. Doesn't help that our membership rate is quite low.

evolving_doors

teacher1000 wrote: »

Registered again coz don't want to be recognised here. as far as I can see the principal in our school is actively encouraging non union and part time staff to come into school and telling us union members that it's their personal choice and we shouldn't have any ill will about it.

He is also recommending them to come in 1/2 hour before the picket starts and furthermore recommending that they come in a different entrance to the picketed one. Any yes, he himself is a union member.

part time staff have until midnight monday if they want to join but are afraid to now in case their hours for next year will be down. A lot of these have new cid contracts but not all of them do.

Ya thanks teacher1000 I think this is what I was talking about. Now I could appreciate if there were office staff asked to come in (to a certain extent!).
But asking other teachers to come in is a bit daft and can only serve to create ill-will. In our school a different entrance would mean climbing a wall:eek: , so it looks as if any teacher who might be coming in might have to remain within the school until the strike is over at the end of the day... doing what? croke park hours!!!

This is seriously a daft situation, and on top of that the Principal and Vice Principal could be outside with the rest of the teachers (if they are in the same union). What's the logic of this at all, why the compunction?

I understood the usual thing was to close the school on the grounds of health and safety (as Seavill said above) and the non-union teachers just stayed at home/put in for personal day/ showed up to support the picket if they liked...

So... my main question... does this 'directive' for Principals to instruct non-union members that they 'must' be physically in the school come from somewhere.. If so, is it the JMB. I know that the JMB do not support the teachers strike and also are in favour of whatever Jan O' Sullivan wants (provided it's resourced accordingly) (See here jmb-calls-on-unions-minister-to-return-to-talks.

seavill

Pwpane wrote: »

I'm not sure what information you want from the school? It's not as if it hasn't been widely publicised (and it's on the front page of irishtimes.com again today). What else could they tell you that you don't already know?

Schools were given a letter by the JMB (I think) to send out to all parents. A carefully worded letter in fairness but instructing that on H&S grounds school was going to have to close

evolving_doors

Pwpane wrote: »

By non-union staff do you mean teachers?

It's not within a principal's power to give a teacher a day off unless it's requested as a sick day etc. So how is it 'forcing' anyone to cross the picket? If a principal says 'stay at home' they could be accused either of illegally giving the day off or of supporting the strike.

A non-union member must make up their own mind about crossing pickets. Management can hardly encourage/discourage it.

Well first off I'll try to get the story straight tomorrow (apologies in advance).

My main interest is really in terms of Union members (Which some principals and vice principals are) instructing others (non-union teachers) to cross a picket. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the usual way was to instruct non-union members to write a letter to say they were willing and able to turn up for work, but 'due to health and safety grounds' the school was shut. So in a sense it was in their power to give the 'day off' by virtue of the fact that the school would be closed (as in... front gates locked).

Also if the Principal is a union member then they must support the strike... (point in hand, our Principal and Deputy are on the roster!).

Apologies my facts of the 'overheard rant' are scant... mainly I heard the words "JMB were instructing Principals to do x,y,z".

I think I'd better open that "non-union thread again", now I'm the one who's confused.

Inspector Coptoor

hairyprincess wrote: »

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

The school were leaving it late in case there was a change in plans.

School's don't exist as childcare facilities.

evolving_doors

hairyprincess wrote: »

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

Yes but what more does a parent need to know? There's a strike on Tuesday, school's closed.

I would agree that a note of some type is sent home to those who don't listen to the news etc. But if they send it too early things could change. Several hundred letters were sent from our school so there's at least 3 hours extra work for admin staff to be considered (and they don't want to have to do it twice).

teacher1000

Registered again coz don't want to be recognised here. as far as I can see the principal in our school is actively encouraging non union and part time staff to come into school and telling us union members that it's their personal choice and we shouldn't have any ill will about it.

He is also recommending them to come in 1/2 hour before the picket starts and furthermore recommending that they come in a different entrance to the picketed one. Any yes, he himself is a union member.

part time staff have until midnight monday if they want to join but are afraid to now in case their hours for next year will be down. A lot of these have new cid contracts but not all of them do.

Pwpane

hairyprincess wrote: »

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

I'm not sure what information you want from the school? It's not as if it hasn't been widely publicised (and it's on the front page of irishtimes.com again today). What else could they tell you that you don't already know?

Pwpane

Armelodie wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything about the JMB instructing Principals to advise non-union staff to come into the school (i.e. to force them to cross the picket).
I could have gotten my wires crossed so Ill check again tomorrow, but there were a few annoyed non-union members late friday afternoon (i just caught the end of a conversation on the way to last class!)

By non-union staff do you mean teachers?

It's not within a principal's power to give a teacher a day off unless it's requested as a sick day etc. So how is it 'forcing' anyone to cross the picket? If a principal says 'stay at home' they could be accused either of illegally giving the day off or of supporting the strike.

A non-union member must make up their own mind about crossing pickets. Management can hardly encourage/discourage it.

hairyprincess

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

As it stands, yes, it's still going ahead.

I'm sure school authorities will be sending letters home with students tomorrow advising parents for their kids to stay at home on Tuesday

The lack of information from the school is disappointing considering many parents will have to take a day off work or organise childcare.

evolving_doors

Has anyone heard anything about the JMB instructing Principals to advise non-union staff to come into the school (i.e. to force them to cross the picket).
I could have gotten my wires crossed so Ill check again tomorrow, but there were a few annoyed non-union members late friday afternoon (i just caught the end of a conversation on the way to last class!)

Inspector Coptoor

hairyprincess wrote: »

Is the strike still going ahead? I have seen nothing in the media the last few days and no communication from my daughters school about it.

As it stands, yes, it's still going ahead.

I'm sure school authorities will be sending letters home with students tomorrow advising parents for their kids to stay at home on Tuesday

hairyprincess

Is the strike still going ahead? I have seen nothing in the media the last few days and no communication from my daughters school about it.

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You know my name-say my name : Hesinberg!

ok ok we get the idea Rumplestilskin, lets try and keep it all anonymous. Its not against the charter to name yourself but I think in the spirit of things on boards we'll all stay anonymous.
Modulator

MrJones1973

You know my name-say my name : Hesinberg!

Jamfa

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Might I suggest you pen a letter to Irish indo or times? I have published quite a few. You might even guess who I am . We need a bigger audience. Will you consider it? I have contact details for Education editors both. Its time consuming. I have had about ten published plus three articles. I need backup.

Have you given us another clue Barry??

MrJones1973

This letter by Barry hazel-published earlier in year in Irish times tackles the 'issue' of rote learning

Sir, – I wasn’t surprised to see the usual criticism of the Leaving Cert as being too dependent on rote learning. This criticism is usually trotted out without any substantiation. Having taught for 20 years I don’t know any student who learns things without understanding them and then applying this knowledge in a variety of ways. It acts as a platform for expansion. As Daisy Christodoulou puts it her book Seven Myths about Education: “Saying all these negative things about rote learning [versus understanding] is very unhelpful. The two things are not in opposition. It’s not that we should spend time on conceptual understanding instead of spending it on learning times tables. It’s by spending time on times tables that you’ll develop the conceptual understanding.”
Christodoulou goes onto critique other favorites of our of our academic elite – projects and “active learning”. This she does with a mixture of common sense and extensive research which contradicts much of what the elite proposes. I would recommend that your readers to pick up a copy of her book before we throw out a relatively well-performing system and replace it with the latest fad. We need more minority voices – the consensus is often wrong – quite wrong. Yours, etc,
BARRY HAZEL,
Giltspur Wood,
Killarney Road,
Bray,
Co Wicklow

acequion

Armelodie wrote: »

Crikey the Indo are really clutching at straws.... Click here for a laugh at the state of 'investigative' journalism in Ireland.

TL;DR paraphrased version
Growing Concern amongst principals (ahem... sources please!!) about not being allowed to be present in school for the first fifteen minutes in case angry parents decide to plonk their kids into school in protest at the strike.

Also note the use of the 'rote learning' stick that is being used to bash us on the head at every opportunity. The paragraph below was the sum total of her 'investigation' into the reason behind the strike.

"The unions are opposed mainly to teachers taking over any responsibility for assessing students, as part of a wider move to end reliance on the traditional Junior Cert exams and the rote learning they encourage."

I'm actually upbeat after seeing how desperate they are to cook up a frenzy. See the comments at the end.. I presume you have to pay them to comment!

Jeez I don't know Armelodie! Even more than the apathetic teachers I would fear the traitors within our ranks,the likes of this Sr Liz Smyth going public with her pro establishment views and screw the rest of us! I would bitterly resent these people for their betrayal. While there might be fans of this new JCSA around the place, the vast majority have the grace to not publically oppose their fighting collegues and even the most die hard can see that teachers have neither the time nor the resources to do what the minister wants.

We absolutely have to win this one so once again I urge everyone to write to their unions to tell them to stand firm.I did and my email was very quickly acknowledged.