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Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

Dave!

So which one of yiz was it?

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weisses

kylith wrote: »

I'd even argue with the claim that Ireland is a mainly Christian country. 80% might have put Catholic on the census, but 10% of them don't even believe in god, and only 34% go to mass. Which works out at (forgive me if my maths is wrong, it's 1am) 27% of the country being practising Catholics. Not a majority by any stretch of the imagination. The census question should really be 'What religion are you a practising member of'.

I have to disagree ... Being christian does not automatically mean being Catholic

Religion means different things to different people. It can have to do with beliefs (such as belief in God) and practices (like church attendance and prayer) but also with religious orthodoxy, that is, whether people follow church teachings or not. Let’s begin with beliefs.
The three measures include – a belief in God, hell, and life after death. These relate to generic Christian beliefs rather than distinctly Catholic precepts. The survey in the 1970s, showed that 95 per cent of respondents said they believed in God. Move on to more recent times, and looking internationally, how does this compare. In the International Social Survey Programme (ISSP) 2008, it was found that 90 per cent believed in God, representing just a 5 per cent drop.
With regard to a belief in hell, 51 per cent of respondents in the 1973–74 survey said they believed in it, compared to 50 per cent in 2008. Whereas in the 1970s, 65 per cent of respondents said they believed in life after death, in 2008, 75 per cent believed in this.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-is-ireland-a-nation-of-a-la-carte-catholics-861758-Apr2013/

Gordon

Just to clarify the ridiculous Mickey/phallus froth, this is actually how it started.

recedite wrote: »

katydid wrote: »

I don't care if it was a cross or a giant Mickey Mouse; what I object to is the wanton vandalism.

Do you not think putting up a giant Mickey in a scenic area would be vandalism?

Saipanne

So, now that the storm has passed. Has it been actually proved that the cross was *cut by vandals*?

Turtwig

Mod:

Mysterio,

This isn't the place for discussing moderation.

It's also not the thread for your opinions on atheists which you are basically soap boxing at this stage anyway. This thread is not your soapbox.

Either post something constructive or relevant. Or don't post at all.

Future posts in this thread by you may be edited or deleted at a moderators discretion.
Consider this fair warning.
Please heed it.

J Mysterio

I thought the whole point of Atheism was to be somewhat indifferent to religion etc? Not too get over excited by other peoples religious dogma and its accompaniments.

When I was 12 or 13 I realised I didn't identify with Christianity and considered I may be an atheist. However, If the views represented here are representative of how most atheists behave I will have to find another term with which to describe myself as the majority (not all) of atheists on display appear to be loathsome and embittered. Almost acting as if those who have faith should be persecuted for having some sort of naive comfort. Worse than that: their monuments should be destroyed and can then be laughed at. How horribly nasty that is, no matter what the justification i.e. 'their naivety'.

Really, I find the whole idea of atheists grouping together, as in 'AI', to be totally ludicrous. How does that work? 'We identify as a group as we don't believe in other peoples groups (i.e. religion)'? That's a very tenuous affiliation. I had always thought atheists to be liberal, open minded, individualistic and accepting.

Why can't people live and let live. Can you not see the irony of railing against the catholic church for abuses and then behaving like animals yourselves?

Is it ok to be destructive and negative if it is anti religion rather than pro religion?

J Mysterio

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod:

JC, do NOT post in this thread again!

Why?

Why is he singled out? His points seem reasoned and respectable. He seems to be keen to engage in thoughtful debate as much if not more so than the majority of the posters in this thread.

jank

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod:

I) after hours charter is not a and a. Your link is pointless.
ii) This is back seat moderation. Something you've been warned about before. Given the context I'm letting it slide but be advised I have no obligation to do so. To borrow from your own hyperlink that would mean your post warranted a card.
iii) I do feel you have a legitimate grievance. Not the way to go about resolving it and you're here long enough to know that.
So how bout Rob apologies to you?
You apologies to me.
We both share our biscuits and express our anger at the removal of the jelly star?

As a side note, I'm not in favour of considering every correction of grammar, grammar Nazism. Otherwise I'd still be saying intensive purposes. (Thanks bluey!)

Apologies for the back seat modding.

Turtwig

Mod:

JC, do NOT post in this thread again!

J C

challengemaster wrote: »

You keep saying this, yet somehow it seems to be going way over your head that erecting crosses in public places is neither tolerant nor respectful towards people who do not share the same belief.

I don't see this at all ... true tolerance is respecting the right of others with whom you disagree to express themselves ... it isn't, as you suggest the suppression of this right on the spurious basis that they aren't being respectful towards you, by a reasonable expression of their faith.
I think the public display of a cross or a crescent, or indeed any other religious symbol is a reasonable expression of faith, that shouldn't cause offense to any person of tolerance and goodwill.

J C

Dades wrote: »

Ah now J C, to suggest that people here support the vandalism is simply not true. There's support for not having big crosses on mountains but that's not the same thing. I've seen some banter but nothing more.

The fact is that the cross on Carrauntoohill was vandalized ... and not only was this not condemned by you guys ... it was justified ... and not only that ... proposals were made to vandalise other crosses, like the Papal Cross in the Phoenix Park ... and the Christian Cross was compared to a penis (or a 'giant Mickey' as it was crudely termed).

Dades wrote: »

Your usual sense of humour has deserted you. That wasn't even the suggestion.

This is serious stuff, as it impinges on the rights of everyone in our society (of all religions and none) and indeed the rule of law.
... and there was a suggestion that a Cross is as offensive as a public display of a penis and I have dealt with this here.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93247222&postcount=178

Dades wrote: »

Also, we'd like the dept of eduction to take over the schools. No religious or non religious organisation should have anything to do there.

Parents have legal responsibility and authority for the education of their minor children. Ironically, I would wish my children to have a broad liberal secular education, (respectful of all religions and none) like I had.
However, when I see such deeply antichrist stuff (advocacy for the destruction of crosses not challenged) emanating from a forum that seems to be representative of current secular opinion, it certainly makes me consider other solutions for my children's education other than an illiberal secular one.

... and BTW who is the 'we' who would like the dept of education to take over the schools (with a view to removing all religious influence from them)?
... many atheists protest that they aren't members of any organisation of atheists ... yet you are saying that some group of people, to whom you belong, are campaigning for the displacement of all religion from all schools.

challengemaster

J C wrote: »

The people of Ireland are tolerant respectful people who believe in true pluralism including the public expression of all religions and none.

You keep saying this, yet somehow it seems to be going way over your head that erecting crosses in public places is neither tolerant nor respectful towards people who do not share the same belief.

kylith

katydid wrote: »

Nope, we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which are based on pagan festivals. But they are Christian festivals.

Not everyone does. I don't, for a start. I would be unlikely to celebrate them regardless of what they were called.

I'd even argue with the claim that Ireland is a mainly Christian country. 80% might have put Catholic on the census, but 10% of them don't even believe in god, and only 34% go to mass. Which works out at (forgive me if my maths is wrong, it's 1am) 27% of the country being practising Catholics. Not a majority by any stretch of the imagination. The census question should really be 'What religion are you a practising member of'.

J C

obplayer wrote: »

And the crucifix? The symbol of the worst punishment the Roman Empire could devise? Nope, I think we are celebrating Roman / Pagan things here.:D

This wasn't a crucifix ... it was a cross, the symbol of Christianity for all Christians.

... and how or why it was cut down is one thing ... but the supportive reaction on the A &A that all publicly displayed crosses should receive a similar fate prompts me to ask who exactly do you guys think ye are?

The people of Ireland are tolerant respectful people who believe in true pluralism including the public expression of all religions and none.

Ye guys seem to be advocating the criminal destruction and vandalism of religious symbols
... and ye seem to believe that all Christians are complete fools, if Challengemaster represents your views ... and nobody has challenged what he has said yet.

Dades

J C wrote: »

Of course, we don't know who did this or what their motivation might have been ... but the fact that the people on the A & A seem to be publicly supporting it is both shocking and surprising.

Ah now J C, to suggest that people here support the vandalism is simply not true. There's support for not having big crosses on mountains but that's not the same thing. I've seen some banter but nothing more.

J C wrote: »

You are now adding insult to injury, by comparing a Christian Cross to a 'giant Mickey' ... and if this is the kind of blasphemous stuff that people like you want to say to our Christian children, when ye take over the schools of Ireland, then ye must be joking.

Your usual sense of humour has deserted you. That wasn't even the suggestion.

Also, we'd like the dept of eduction to take over the schools. No religious or non religious organisation should have anything to do there.

Dan_Solo

J C wrote: »

Are they ... I don't know ... please tell us.
When it suits, leaders / spokespersons seem to pop up ... and then ye guys deny that ye have any organisation to have any leaders / spokespersons, in the first place.

Assuming all atheists think the same would be like assuming all priests are pedophiles, yes?

Saipanne

J C wrote: »

Are they ... I don't know ... please tell us.
When it suits, leaders / spokespersons seem to pop up ... and then ye guys deny that ye have any organisation to have any leaders / spokespersons, in the first place.

I'm an atheist, but I really know nothing of these organizations. I just don't believe in god/s. That's all. I don't really dwell on it.

Cabaal

katydid wrote: »

Nope, we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which are based on pagan festivals. But they are Christian festivals.

Do tell, when did Jesus decorate the Christmas tree? When did Jesus fly with reindeer?

Did Jesus give the easter bunny the power to create chocolate eggs?

These are the things people celebrate most about these periods, Jesus doesn't give gifts at Christmas from his flying sledge so he's no where near as popular

J C

SW wrote: »

All atheists are leaders of atheism???

Are they ... I don't know ... please tell us.
When it suits, leaders / spokespersons seem to pop up ... and then ye guys deny that ye have any organisation to have any leaders / spokespersons, in the first place.

J C

recedite wrote: »

We were talking about the mouse. Some people have filthy minds

Unfortunately, for your point I'm correct in my assessment.
Your fellow Atheist has confirmed his belief that a Christian Cross is as offensive as the public erection of a phallus.
Thereby comparing the Christian Cross to a penis ... and not a mouse.
... and you even thanked the post.

challengemaster wrote: »

Well, think about it logically for a second. You find the thought of a giant mickey being erected in a public place offensive and an eyesore. Similarly, atheists find the erection of a giant cross offensive and an eyesore.

It seems an ideal comparison based on that reaction alone. You no more want to be forced to look at a phallus than we want to see symbolism of religion going about our day.

... so much for the idea that crosses on churches won't be the next item for attack and removal by you and your fellow travellers

wrote:

Originally posted by J C
Ye must think that all Christian parents are complete fools

challengemaster
Yes, but that's besides the point

Your honesty is to be applauded ... but nothing else.

A very illuminating comment to be presented to all Christian parents when and if they are asked to place their children in schools run by people with attitudes like yours.

shruikan2553

katydid wrote: »

Not really an answer to my question.

Well there is no year. The link is the closest explanation to it I could find. Im sure you can contact the local planning authority and ask them if theres a year that a structure must be built before for it to be considered as historical.

obplayer

katydid wrote: »

Nope, we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which are based on pagan festivals. But they are Christian festivals.

And the cross? The symbol of the worst punishment the Roman Empire could devise (crucifixion)? Nope, I think we are celebrating Roman / Pagan things here.:D

Saipanne

Has it been proved that is was cut? I read a compelling argument that it just snapped.

katydid

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Some stuff about protected structures here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/building_or_altering_a_home/protected_structures.html

.

Not really an answer to my question.

katydid

obplayer wrote: »

FYP

Nope, we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which are based on pagan festivals. But they are Christian festivals.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

All atheists, I guess.

All atheists are leaders of atheism???

shruikan2553

katydid wrote: »

So what year is the cut off point?

Some stuff about protected structures here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/building_or_altering_a_home/protected_structures.html

J C wrote: »

I should have thought that all people of goodwill should have no problems with the public display of religious symbols of all religions.
It's what I thought a pluralist society is all about ... respect for all religions and none ... and their public expression.

Pluralist is all well and good until Satanists and Scientologist want to put crap on the top of a mountain. How do we decide what gets put up there and what doesnt?
Keep religious symbols in places of religious meaning.

J C

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It was a joke.

Who would that be?

All atheists are potential leaders, I guess.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And again:

I doubt any sane people have problems with historical buildings that were used for religious purposes.

I should have thought that all people of goodwill should have no problems with the public display of religious symbols of all religions.
It's what I thought a pluralist society is all about ... respect for all religions and none ... and their public expression.

recedite

J C wrote: »

You are now adding insult to injury, by comparing a Christian Cross to a 'giant Mickey' ... and if this is the kind of blasphemous stuff that people like you want to say to our Christian children, when ye take over the schools of Ireland, then ye must be joking.

Ye must think that all Christian parents are complete fools if ye think that they will hand over their children to be taught under an ethos devised by people like you, with such gross intolerance for everything they hold dear.

We were talking about the mouse. Some people have filthy minds

obplayer

katydid wrote: »

Have you a problem with the Christ figure overlooking Rio de Janero? The reality is that in mainly Christian countries you will find many similar symbols, in Eastern countries you will find giant Buddhas. It's just a cultural reality. Just because we are not totally Roman Catholic or even Christian doesn't mean that our culture doesn't reflect our Christian Roman / Pagan heritage. We celebrate Christmas Saturnalia and Eostre... Easter

FYP

challengemaster

J C wrote: »

You are now adding insult to injury, by comparing a Christian Cross to a 'giant Mickey'

Well, think about it logically for a second. You find the thought of a giant mickey being erected in a public place offensive and an eyesore. Similarly, atheists find the erection of a giant cross offensive and an eyesore.

It seems an ideal comparison based on that reaction alone. You no more want to be forced to look at a phallus than we want to see symbolism of religion going about our day.

Ye must think that all Christian parents are complete fools

Yes, but that's besides the point