ABC101 wrote: » If I could offer a small clarification. Believers just don't believe blindly. When one starts to believe... and commences on a journey of believing in God.... a relationship develops. A person who prays to God / Jesus Christ / Virgin Mary / Saints etc enters into a type of relationship / conversation etc. For example certain problems which the person may be experiencing i.e. health, job issues, family issues, personal issues or whatever. Many of these issues cannot be solved by the person on their own. However a great many believers.... after having prayed to God about issues which affect them... have had their problems solved / reduced / overcome etc. This is something which is very important. Because it demonstrates to the believer... that they have been listened to, they have been heard by God, and the problem which they were faced with has either been solved, diminished, or the person was able to draw on internal strength to overcome the difficulty. This is why believers have belief.... because that they have experienced this relationship first hand in their own lives, not just once but many times... sometimes several times a year, several times a month or several times a day. I have never heard of a person who was seriously ill / terminally ill who prayed to Santa and was cured.
Safehands wrote: » I know about this relationship. It can be a wonderful help to people who believe, a crutch to cling to. The trouble is though, that people's prayers are not always answered. In fact, the truth is, that the really serious prayers, for people who are terminally ill, are rarely answered. The other day I lost my wedding ring. I was tempted to pray to St Anthony, because he is the one, according to catholics, who helps people to find things. I eventually found my ring and was very relieved. If I had prayed to Anthony, I'm sure he could have been considered partly responsible for it's recovery. Do you know what I would love to see? I would love to see a person who lost a limb, or an eye in an accident, pray to their chosen saint for intersession, and for the lost limb or eye to be restored perfectly. Do you think that would ever happen by praying, even once, anywhere in the world? Has it ever happened?
ABC101 wrote: » Glad to year you got your wedding ring back!! WRT to prayers not being answered.. I agree that not all prayers are answered. We don't know why this is.... sometimes it might be that we are praying for the wrong thing, or is not part of God's design or whatever, I don't know. It is a mystery.... particularly if you are praying for something very good (i.e. a sick child etc)... and your prayer is not answered. I'd love to see seriously injured people made whole (perfectly healthy) as well, in particular children. But it does not happen, if you lose a limb or eye... that is it. This is only my opinion.... but perhaps one of the reasons why it does not happen would be ....if we had hurdreds or thousands of miraculous cures in Ireland every year (just using Ireland as an example)..... then people might start to believe in God because of the multiple evidence that is there... rather than believing in God through personal choice / faith. People have a free choice, to believe or not to believe. God respects that in this life. WRT prayers being answered: I cannot answer for everybody, but we do know of witness testimonies by people who have prayed for a cure to their ailment, and they have been cured. There has been cures which cannot be explained by medical science alone. I am sure you have heard of a few yourself. Have a read of Colm Keanes book..... he wrote one about Padre Pio.... great read... about 250 pages, nice stories / witness statements etc and cheap to buy... about 14 euro or so. Getting back to belief or faith that a believer has in God..... in my opinion... it is akin to a person practising something (ie. Golf, maths, public speaking etc etc). The more a person practises..... generally the more proficient they become up to a point. Obviously if I practise golf a lot... I am still never going to get to the level of T.Woods or Rory. So it is the same with a relationship with God. The more one prays / thinks of God / attempts to develop their relationship with God... the more God reveals himself in the believers life. It is a personal relationship of love between the believer and God. I think is could be where athiests miss out. They are looking for concrete proof before they decide to believe, but with believers.... it is the other way around.... they believe.... they deepen / practise their faith and slowly but surely they see the evidence of God in their personal lives and in the universe around us.
JC01 wrote: » I flick through this thread every now and then because I find the concepts of religion quite interesting but this thread is often just people screaming "BELIEVE OR BURN" so it's nice to see you actually have a discussion on things you, as a believer, are asked by atheists. Two points from that last comment I always wonder about though; you make a valid point re lots of miracles would kind of "blackmail" people into believing rather than them beleiving through faith. How come you then mention evidence? Excluding anecdotal evidence like the business manager, what kind of 'evidence' is there? I know this is a kind of lazy question but Im intrigued as to what you meant by it. And also one of the most common queries from atheists is with so much evil happening every day is this not overwhelming proof that there is no God/Allah etc? Or at least that if there is a "God" that he acts far more like the Christian "devil" than the actual God?
Harika wrote: » This claim has been tested, if a person that people pray for will have a higher chance to survive or get better than if no one is praying for them: (again please enter the hyperlink before) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer No positive effect could be verified for the people prayed for compared to the people that were not prayed for. It has also been tested what happens to very sick people that get the last rites, compared to no last rites. Here the people who did not get the last rites had a higher chance to survive. Why is that so? Scientists believe this is caused by the last rites itself because the patent who receives the last rites realizes how bad his situation is and might surrender. The religious reply was that this is nothing god would need to show. And for the last part, I heard of seriously ill / terminally ill atheists and agnostics that recovered, while I also heard of healthy people that went to Lourdes to pray that died there of heart attacks or strokes, while non-believers and even Satanists went there and came back healthy and alive. I understand that by religion people are made to believe to link all good to god, while the bad things are caused by satan or the guilty humans itself. Or the above is justified by “God’s ways are mysterious” or from my youth “Shut up and pray”
That would be the evidence I was referring to in the post above. In that way.... everybody could gather around....and there would be evidence that a miraculous event occured. There would be no doubt that there is a divine being at work.
Harika wrote: » Sure those are all nice examples why someone believe, while I understand that it is enough for others for me those examples are not sufficient to believe that god did this to them. For me those are just random events that are not linked, cause did the shop owner not pray before? So why did god let him get into this situation in first? Could it be that some friend heard about his problems and decided to give him money but he knew he would never accept it so asked some friend of him to drop it into the shop? Also there was an example of starving or molested children, that pray to god but neither hunger nor abuse did stop? So what does it tell about that god who gives money away but let people starve to death or let the abuse continue?
ABC101 wrote: » Firstly I do not have all the answers....but For you or me as an outsider it could appear as random events... but for the manager of the business (and no it was not a shop) it was not down to chance. The manager was deeply religious before he set up his business. He got off to a good start but as time went on it became clear that the market was not big enough. So it was only a matter of time before the whole thing folded. In relation to the money being dropped in.... it did not come from a friend... but a complete stranger to the manager. Money was only one example... there were many other difficulties as well, not just cashflow. This is what I was referring to above... the relationship between a person who has a love of God.... and various events which could and do occur in that persons life. It is a personal relationship. Your other question... about how could God allow the person he loves to fail in their business. God does not treat religious people any more differently to you or I. Religious people get hurt just as much as non religious. Look at Pope Francis.... he only has 1 lung. Pope John Paul II got shot. In the last 15 years more than 1/2 million Christians have been exterminated in Iraq, possibly even more. The world just stands by, including so called Christian Europe. Just because you are religious or have a love of God... does not mean your life will be a milk run, or have a silver spoon in your mouth etc etc. In relation to your point about starving children, abused children and as to how this is allowed to occur. As I mentioned in the other post... there are numerous examples of injustice all over the world. I do not know why some prayers are answered.. and others are not. I just don't know. I know for a fact that a few of my prayers have been answered....and some important ones (important to me anyway) have not / not yet been answered. Almost all of these injustices are done by man being cruel or indifferent to other people, including children. It is not God who is polluting the ground water etc. Perhaps God in the main.... allows humanity to do what it wants to do.... he allows injustices to occur.... because when a person dies.... he can then take them to paradise?
RikuoAmero wrote: » The key point that, I think, Harika is trying to make here is that God (if he exists) is unreliable. As in, he's like that friend who does like and respect you, but you can never be sure he'll actually turn up and help you when you need it, despite earnest promises from him in the past that he actually will if all you do is ask for it. Also, for your story about the shop to be convincing, you have to first provide evidence for it. So far, at best, it is an anecdote. I don't know if it's true or not. You could be making the whole thing up for all I know. I honestly don't think you are, but it helps your case a whole lot if you can remove that possibility for me.
It could be all made up..but what is the point of me making up stories? I mean it is not as if I am making monetary gain by posting here, or everytime somebody posts or retweets my comment I earn a cent etc etc.
Because perhaps my friend is in on it as well.... perhaps the two of us made it all up together?
What if his word was not enough?
Would you require to see the company accounts? At what level would there be enough evidence for you to be satisfied / sure / certain
It's akin to me demanding that you produce rocky soil from Pluto, because you say Pluto exists. We are both limited by our human form.
With respect to God actually appearing to a person. I believe God does not do this, due to God being infinitely beautiful / majestic, the human mind / form would be unable to be exposed to God's great beauty / power / majesty. That is why in the Bible where God does appear... it is in some other form... i.e. burning bush, a cloud in the shape of a tower, a voice from the sky etc.
The Bible is a spiritual book, new and old testaments. It speaks to the reader in a spiritual manner, not necessarily in a literal sense.
But I keep emphasising this.... God is about Love
With God it is not necessarily what you do (within limits of course).... but it is the fact that you have tried. Think of a parent... they allow their child to make various mistakes.
Think of the new testament reading ..... where the disciples are in the boat... and Jesus comes walking across the water to them. Remember that one?
And his company ended up sinking
How do you know that the person you married in your 20's or 30's..... will still be at your side, through good times and rough.... when you are in your old age?
Why try anything, whether it be marriage, a career, or developing a skill if you do not have concrete evidence that you are going to be good at it? I mean.... how can you be really certain.... really 100% sure????
The simple answer is... you just don't know for absolute certainty before you embark on any of these decisions. What you do know is that you are going to give it your best shot, and you expect your spouse to do the same. Or you are going to practise painting art... in the hope of becoming a good artist / musician / engineer / pilot or what ever.
You will have tried!!
lazybones wrote: You must witness, give reason.
DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: » Why don't these folk keep their nose out and live their lives as they see fit without having to snipe and sneer at Christianity. Imo it's the reason nobody takes them seriously in Ireland, they're viewed as a bunch of flakey blowhards. This isn't true in all cases of course, but I feel the 'angry young man demo' are overrepresented online, big socially stagnant 'WOW' playing Star Trek watching freaks thinking they're repressed etc. The open minded folk sometimes struggle to be heard because of these childish muppets hogging the stage and **** over each other. Maturity and understanding between the Atheist and the Religious won't happen until they grow up.
I don't have all the answers.. but I did offer what I could.
By the way just in case .... I do believe in the existance of Pluto... it was just an example I was using etc etc, I think you know that!!
I think you are still open to the truth.... I think also that you are personally searching for truth. I get this impression from your posts and the questions you ask.
In addition.... a few posts back you mentioned about going through a bit of a dark espisode in your personal life. I would just like to express my admiration for your courage to say that publically. Yes, I know you have an anonymous name on this site... and as such it offers a level of privacy. But I think it takes courage to say it.
As for me... I am intrigued by atheists and their logic. It is not that I want to debate with them or score debating points or show off fancy intricate use of English words etc ... but to share with them the great joy that is to be a believer in God.
I will still chip in from time to time offering clarifications about various religious events for example you mentioned the Virgin Birth. That is a popular misunderstanding, but the explanation is that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. This is because it was the Holy Spirit who came to her. As the Holy Spirit is a spirit... it does not possess a sexual reproducitve organ as a human man does. Hence Mary retained her virginity at Jesus conception and all during her life.
DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: » Why don't these folk keep their nose out and live their lives as they see fit without having to snipe and sneer at Christianity. Imo it's the reason nobody takes them seriously in Ireland, they're viewed as a bunch of flakey blowhards. This isn't true in all cases of course, but I feel the 'angry young man demo' are overrepresented online, big socially stagnant 'WOW' playing Star Trek watching freaks thinking they're repressed etc.
RikuoAmero wrote: » If you want to share with me this joy, you have to show me that there actually is joy and happiness and that it can only be found by believing in your god. As far as I'm able to determine, this is false, but go ahead and try Now I want you to answer this question for me yes or no - if you heard the virgin mother story from any other source, would you believe it? To make it a little easier, pretend you're seeing Star Wars Episode I for the very first time in your life. Pretend you know nothing about movies or fiction or stories. When Anakin's mother is talking to Qui-Gon and mentions "There was no father", do you then say to yourself "I believe Anakin is real, and that his mother was a virgin while she was pregnant"
But Roman Catholism teaches us that even belief will not get you into Heaven. A person who believes has to believe and carry out good works i..e charity to the poor being just one example. One cannot just talk the talk... one has to walk the walk as well. In short Faith alone will not save you, only faith and good works.
In 1858 our Lady appeared to Bernadette and announced herself as the Immaculate Conception. For many many years before this event... it was a great mystery if this was true or not. There was no official confirmation either way... however it was only confirmed in 1858 when our Lady appeared to Bernadette.
But it is important not to lose sight of the real goal.... that is to grow to love God more and more... in fact Jesus says this is the first and most important commandment.
RikuoAmero wrote: » If I talk to someone from a different denomination of christianity, they will say otherwise. They will say belief alone is enough. Both you and he are pointing to the same book, the bible (although, not the same edition or translation). So I've got you, ABC, pointing to a catholic endorsed version of the bible and saying "See! You need to do good deeds too!"Then I have someone from a lutheran church, pointing to the King James, saying "See! Belief alone is enough!" Again, I'm somehow expected to believe, minus evidence, that a woman who had been dead for 1800 years appeared to a girl in France. I understand that this is what you believe, what you accept to be true as having happened...but it's a hard pill to swallow for me. It's yet again another situation from you explaining something mysterious about the world by using magic. So according to you, catholic scholars didn't have a clue about something about Mary (yes I said that deliberately)...but the mystery was solved when a ghost appeared to a teenage girl in France! Also...you never actually answered my question. Let me rephrase it: let's pretend you have never heard of christianity. If some woman comes up to you and says "I'm pregnant, from a society with no understanding of biology or technology, but I was a virgin even after the conception", would you believe her? As for your analogy about a car engine - there are people who understand them very well. They're called mechanics. They can demonstrate their knowledge by taking them apart, putting them back together again and having the engine work. The same cannot be said for God. Oh, you might say there are priests, bishops and cardinals...but they can never demonstrate their knowledge. There is no God that I can examine. Unlike with mechanics, who all learn the exact same thing, there are different branches all claiming contradictory things about God. If I take my car to Rome and then to Texas, mechanics in both places will be able to work on my car's engine. However, if I talk to a catholic priest in Rome, and then a baptist minister in Texas, I'll be told contradictory things. Both have completely different approaches. Both cannot be true at the same time (e.g. the catholic priest claiming the pope to be Jesus's vicar on Earth, while the baptist minister says catholicism is a false and distorted version of christianity). Also your car engine analogy exposes one of the major problems I have with religion. Yes, I as the driver of the car don't have to understand the car inside and out in order to use it; I can pay someone else to do that for me. However, your analogy has the implication that people don't have to understand their God belief: just believe it, accept it as true and continue on with their lives. Really? The single most important thing in the universe, and you're giving off the implication that people ought not to examine the belief?Love is not worth anything if it's commanded. Love is either earned or freely given, and should never be demanded. Plus, I can't love something if I'm not convinced if that something exists. Oops, guess I'm breaking the commandment there, and I somehow deserve punishment. Please, in the future, when you make assertions like this, PLEASE give your justifications beyond "Jesus says". That means nothing to me, will not work on me, because I am not yet convinced I should pay attention to anything Jesus says.
tommy2bad wrote: » Just adressing the bit's in bold; first your misrepresenting the classic protestant position, in faith alone, it's not true to say they mean that you can act anyway you like and gain salvation just by believing. It's meant to highlight the fact that good works without faith will leave you in the same position. Again a misunderstanding of the Immaculate conception, it's not Mary's virginity that grants her the title, it's her lack of original sin. The virginity tradition is separate and has nothing to do with her immaculate conception. I think you almost get the first commandment, your just being a bit legalistic about it. Love can never be demanded or forced, that fact should give you a clue as to what the commandment actually means.
RikuoAmero wrote: » I am a man without faith. If I do good works all my life (such as working hard so as to ensure my younger siblings can go to college), why is that considered not important? Why is a demand for believing in this one thing considered so important above all other things? It seems extremely arbitrary to me: I would say the exact same things if the teaching was "Believe Call of Duty games are good and fun games to play".
RikuoAmero wrote: » As for the virgin Mary part...you might want to bring that up with ABC instead. He's the one who introduced that topic and, instead of mentioning the lack of original sin claim, instead doubled down on her supposedly being a virgin. Thus, I ran with it, despite knowing all along what the Immaculate Conception actually was. I was testing him to see if he would do research and correct himself, and also because I wanted to discuss what he believes, not just what the official dogma of the RCC is alone. What I found out was that he mentioned being a catholic, accepting of RCC teachings, but he had shown himself to be incorrect. This is an extremely dangerous position to be in; I saw a clip today where a comedian is talking to a US lawmaker who claims the ten commandments are the basis for US law, only to fail at listing the actual commandments when pressed on it.
RikuoAmero wrote: » As for the commandment part...it's called a commandment for a reason. It's something that the religion teaches people are commanded to do. It's Number One on the 10 Most Important Rules of the religion. Thus, when I look at it, and then look at the fact that love ought not to be demanded or forced, I have to come to the conclusion that this commandment makes no sense and has no basis in reality.
Yeah the level of catechism is dire, but it's not that big a deal, I doubt their a catechism test at the pearly gates. More like continuous assessment of how we treat our fellow man.
RikuoAmero wrote: » If so, then belief that God exists is completely superfluous. I imagine myself dying, not being convinced, surprised to find myself at the pearly gates, and some booming voice going through my life "Let's see now...stood by friends and family through thick and thin...good...worked hard to pay for siblings entry into college and thus hope for a better life...good...gave to charity...good...taught what you knew freely...good" etc. I can treat my fellow man extremely well and in fact do so just fine without a belief that there is a god. Congratulations, you have just rendered your entire religion completely pointless. I thank you for that. No, I am not being insulting or rude, I am pointing out that you are now only one small step away from accepting my side of the debate.
RikuoAmero wrote: » Just so I'm understanding you correctly - is it your position that loving God and loving your fellow man are linked, one follows from the other?
RikuoAmero wrote: » I also find it remarkable that you mention koans, since doubt is an essential practice for koans, yet quite a few times throughout the bible, it is claimed that God commands against having doubts.
ABC101 wrote: » Medical science cannot replace the limb or eye. But the person prays to God / goes to Chruch and when they wake up the next day..... Voila..... a new eye / limb is there and it is functioning perfectly. That would be the evidence I was referring to in the post above. In that way.... everybody could gather around....and there would be evidence that a miraculous event occured. There would be no doubt that there is a divine being at work. Now imagine this occuring 200 times a year in Ireland... and then scale up for countries with greater populations etc.
tommy2bad wrote: The thing is 'by faith alone' also excludes presuming on God, which is what your doing their.
Indeed it dose, in both directions. Not my position btw, that was the position of some wandering Jewish prophet, "Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me. .... "
Annie Lamott — 'The opposite of faith is not doubt, it's certainty.'
“Faith isn't believing without proof – it's trusting without reservation.” William Sloane Coffin ... Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich. Nah, you seem to be fighting strawmen.
James 1: 5-8 If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. 6 But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7, 8 for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
Matthew 21:21 "Jesus answered them, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will be done."
Mark 11:23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you.
Romans 14:23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith;for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
No I am not trying to convert you. No I am not expecting you to change. From time to time you write "Again, I'm somehow expected to believe" That is not my intention. All I am offering is an explanation / understanding of Christianity, clarification from my perspective.
Yes I would. It is possible to get pregnant without having sexual intercourse. It is possible for sperm to travel from outside to the inside. I'm not going to get into graphic details, but for pregancy to occur what is required is sperm to meet the egg. Not for a penis to be inside a vagina. If you don't believe me you can ask a doctor, or pick up a book on issues of sexuality.
That is why you have free will.... to accept or reject belief in God.
The car salesman and the visitor have a discussion about the technical aspects / design and colour of the new car. But at no point does the car salesman offer to sell the car to the visitor. It is just a disscussion about the product... not a offer of sale.
Several miracles which cannot be explained by medical science have occurred in Lourdes since 1858
ABC101 wrote: » If God showed up on Earth right now.... and proved himself with out a shadow of a doubt that he exists. In 1000 years time people could be saying... well the human race in 2014 was very primitative... they must have been drunk... yes drugs where common in those times etc. Future generations would find some reason to discount the witness statements of 2014.
Safehands wrote: » Absolutely not! You are making a comparison with the time when Jesus walked the earth. First of all, although these "miracles" are written about, we have no way of knowing if they actually happened as described. My own father talks of seeing ghosts in fields, or hearing "banshees". The introduction of electricity and modern lighting has all but done away with those phenomena. That was only 60 years ago. Events which happen today are much more accurately recorded. So you are just speculating about what would be said in 1000 years time. Man went to the moon in 1969. That will be talked about in 3014. It may be viewed as a primitive effort, (although I seriously doubt it), but there will be no doubt that it happened. So if God was to make himself known to the masses today, there is no doubt that it would be viewed in 3014 or 4014 as an amazing authentic event which changed the course of history.
