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Conspiracy theorists

Kermit.de.frog

So I have this friend who believes all the usual one world government, 9/11 was an inside job, man did not land on the moon stuff. Really annoys people with his ramblings.

But here is the thing. His mind is warped in to this. It does not matter what you say or how you try to talk sense to him - he does not listen. His mind is made up and that is that.

When asked for reason and evidence it always comes back to interweb videos.

I mean why not believe a young fella in his bed room who is an expert on every scientific and financial theory known to man?

I don't get how anyone can be so weak minded and gullible. Yet so many seem to be.

It comes to the point where you have run out of things to say. How does one deal with these people in preferably an adult way without resorting to violence out of rage?

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Kermit.de.frog

Laura Palmer wrote: »

Insisting their theories are facts and that those who don't subscribe to them are sheeple is when they can **** off.

This seems to be the automatic defence mechanism when they are challenged with reasonable, well rounded argument.

I will listen to them though - I don't have a closed mind but eventually as some have said I just get tired listening because they tend not to listen to you.

Karpackie

Most conspiracy theories are lunacy. The only one I really believe in is the one involving a referee from Wexford who officiated over a very controversial hurling match between Galway and Cork in the 1989 All-Ireland hurling semi-final. Galway were going for a very famous 3-in-a-row. They had it all. Classy hurlers, lads with white boots and long hair, Sylvie Linnane. Bonfires had already been set. A golden era.

The ref (John Deasy) made decisions that day that set back Galway hurling by a quarter of a century. The man was paid off. A car load of men from Gort were driving to down to Waterford to beat the ****e out of him. Intercepted outside Thurles. The Loughrea lads got as far as Carlow. The Athenry contingent made it to a new fangled roundabout outside Roscrea.

We haven't recovered. Pure GAA conspiracy.

Yogosan

Putinovsky wrote: »

In the majority of cases a lot of those who latch onto conspiracy theories do so because they live uninteresting lives and need to be apart of something that makes their world more interesting. Many of them tend to be unemployed and socially inept from what I can see. Conspiracy theories give their life meaning, they can pretend that they are part of a select few in the know who are fighting a battle against imaginary evil tyrants that will save the world.

That's my brother down too a tee. Really disappointing, because he used to be massive history buff in his 20's. Incredibly knowledgable. Now I can't have a conversation with him without him trying to convince me 9/11 was an inside job for the umpteenth time. I don't bombard him with my 'Conspiracy' (in his eyes) that 9/11 was orchestrated by Osama Bin Laden.

It has consumed him.

KKkitty

ceadaoin. wrote: »

How do people make this into a conspiracy? It just a list of coincidences some of which aren't even true.

Some people are like that though. If anyone is a conspiracy theorist it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Each to their own.

ceadaoin.

KKkitty wrote: »

Some people are like that though. If anyone is a conspiracy theorist it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Each to their own.

I actually think some conspiracy theories are probably true. There is decent evidence for some of them. Some people though try to find a conspiracy in everything and end up twisting the facts to suit their preferred theory. It doesn't bother me though, they can think what they want.

Detached Retina

Tzardine wrote: »

I have a cousin like this. She does my head in. Actually unfriended her last week on FB because of the cack coming out of her mouth. Some gems such as:

Government is controlling us by spraying chemicals from airplanes (Chemtrails)

Fluoride in the water is being used to poison and kill us as a form of population control.

She take pictures of various ESB stations and claims that they are HAARP installations.

But dangerously she wont vaccinate her kid because she believes it will cause down syndrome.

And every other post is anti water charges and how she wont pay. Bleeding clown still lives at home with her ma !

You cant pick your family and all that.

Sweet Jeesus, ditto to the word, among a a few the worst are 2 cousins, and an aunt ..and also my neighbour. We must be related based on your comments about them above! I think conspiracy theories are a conspiracy!. Got unfriended by one the the cousins for uploading a scientific rebuke to the conspiracists claims about vaccines. Not directed at her, but just must have been to sensible.

KomradeBishop

My favourite conspiracy theory, is that the CIA coined the term 'conspiracy theory', as a conspiracy to discredit ideas that challenge those in power - so that the term 'conspiracy theory' is itself, is a kind of meta-conspiracy-theory :pac:

Yogosan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This seems to be the automatic defence mechanism when they are challenged with reasonable, well rounded argument.

I will listen to them though - I don't have a closed mind but eventually as some have said I just get tired listening because they tend not to listen to you.

I find this very frustrating. When you listen to every detail, and put together a detailed cogent answer as to why the thing they just said can't be true, only for them to turn around and say, but what about building 7, what about the sound of explosions, what about this, what about that, without even listening or referencing what you said. It's an unending list of things to disprove. And once you do, another 'theory' has replaced it. Well, what about all the times I just disproved your argument... What about that?

There are people in my family that trust Alex Jones more than they trust me!

Does reason and logic have no bearing in the never ending game of 'conspiracy top trumps', where one player always loses, but never runs out of cards.

Detached Retina

Duggy747 wrote: »

It's a checklist of the usual stuff from people I know:
Fake moon-landings and subsequent space missions never happened. "Space missions" are primarily used to spy and control the world's population / distract from other things.

9/11 controlled explosions

Illuminati

The "eye" symbol in music videos to brainwash children

Satanic messages in Disney music if played backwards like the Jonah Bros (This one coming from someone I know who listens to heavy metal bands who had been accused of this in the past, this point flies over his head.)

The Occult

Georgia Guidestones

New World Order

Chemtrails

Fluoride

Vaccines making people sick, autism, controlling the population to throw votes, etc.

Bill Gates and his eugenics programme to control the population

Ebola is made up by the Big Pharma to sell vaccines.

Malaysian airlines shot down because scientists on it had the cure to AIDS / military people were about to expose US secrets.

Big Pharma have the cure to cancer and AIDS.

All major assassinations were faked.

Sandy Hook school and the Colorado cinema shootings were faked, victims didn't exist and the "families" are actors.

Boston bombing was a false flag to distract the public.

ISIS / ISIL don't exist.

Pretty much anything that has ever happened, seen in a different way and then "reported" by Alex Jones / Natural News................which is funny in regards to the Big Pharma thing considering Jones is pushing this

Yeah, this is like tea chat/regular status update with some people I know..you're a sheep(sheeple-thanks David Icke!) if you don't agree apparently. Though I do kinda believe the moon landing one

Yogosan

Detached Retina wrote: »

Duggy747 wrote: »

It's a checklist of the usual stuff from people I know:
Fake moon-landings and subsequent space missions never happened. "Space missions" are primarily used to spy and control the world's population / distract from other things.

9/11 controlled explosions

Illuminati

The "eye" symbol in music videos to brainwash children

Satanic messages in Disney music if played backwards like the Jonah Bros (This one coming from someone I know who listens to heavy metal bands who had been accused of this in the past, this point flies over his head.)

The Occult

Georgia Guidestones

New World Order

Chemtrails

Fluoride

Vaccines making people sick, autism, controlling the population to throw votes, etc.

Bill Gates and his eugenics programme to control the population

Ebola is made up by the Big Pharma to sell vaccines.

Malaysian airlines shot down because scientists on it had the cure to AIDS / military people were about to expose US secrets.

Big Pharma have the cure to cancer and AIDS.

All major assassinations were faked.

Sandy Hook school and the Colorado cinema shootings were faked, victims didn't exist and the "families" are actors.

Boston bombing was a false flag to distract the public.

ISIS / ISIL don't exist.

Pretty much anything that has ever happened, seen in a different way and then "reported" by Alex Jones / Natural News................which is funny in regards to the Big Pharma thing considering Jones is pushing this

Yeah, this is like tea chat/regular status update with some people I know..you're a sheep(sheeple-thanks David Icke!) if you don't agree apparently. Though I do kinda believe the moon landing one

Chomsky had something very wise to say about conspiracies, and it applies to most of them. Considering the amount of people involved in the moon landings, if it didn't happen, how could you keep it a secret?

For example, there were a only a handful of people involved in the Watergate Scandal and they couldn't keep it secret. There were hundreds of thousands involved in the moon landings. Surely they couldn't all keep that secret. It would be more difficult to fake the moon landings than to actually complete them.

Tigger

Yogosan wrote: »

Detached Retina wrote: »

It would be more difficult to fake the moon landings than to actually complete them.

i'm not sure that's true

blinding

Could one conspiracy theory actually be correct and all the rest just false flag conspiracy theories.

Oh dear I may have just fallen in ! ! !

[Deleted User]

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How does one deal with these people in preferably an adult way without resorting to violence out of rage?

First I would suggest anger management and an exploration of why people with different opinions to you move you to violent rages.

Second I would suggest you use simple mature and adult conversation to inform this person that your friendship with them is not working - your differences are too stark - and then move on with other friends who do not irritate you so much.

I have no time for conspiracy theorists. In a world where the President of the United States himself could not even engage in a cover up of a semen stain on a dress - I am not buying the sheer level of competence and investment that some people are alleged to be engaging in in the majority of conspiracy theories that have passed by me.

Not to mention the fact that all conspiracy theories I have been offered at any stage all rely on extrapolating conclusions from evidence the speaker does not have - never had - and is merely assuming.

There is always a document that was destroyed - a testimony that was covered up - a witness that was silenced - a location that was deleted.

And a claim based not just on no evidence - but on the mere assumption of the erasing of the conveniently assumed perfect evidence - is not something I am likely to buy any time soon.

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that all conspiracy theories I have been offered at any stage all rely on extrapolating conclusions from evidence the speaker does not have - never had - and is merely assuming.

There is always a document that was destroyed - a testimony that was covered up - a witness that was silenced - a location that was deleted.

And a claim based not just on no evidence - but on the mere assumption of the erasing of the conveniently assumed perfect evidence - is not something I am likely to buy any time soon.

You should try explaining Occam's razor to a conspiracy theorist sometimes, hours and hours of fun

DamagedTrax

Deleted User wrote: »

There is always a document that was destroyed - a testimony that was covered up - a witness that was silenced - a location that was deleted.

the thing is, there usually is a document misplaced. look at the current uk paedo ring investigation. thats clearly a conspiracy to cover up.

blinding

DamagedTrax wrote: »

the thing is, there usually is a document misplaced. look at the current uk paedo ring investigation. thats clearly a conspiracy to cover up.

There is definitely something going on there.
Its probably more of a case of everybody knowing their place and realising that taking on the establishment in Britain will kill their career.

Its just how things are in Britain. You don't need a conspiracy.

Particularly in the past. Royalty/Sirs/Top politicians were/are untouchable.

People know their place and their place is not to question their betters !

The Catholic Church/Top Politicians/Judiciary/High Ranking Gardai had/have the same system in the Irish "Republic"

Its not really a conspiracy, its just people knowing their place.

DamagedTrax

blinding wrote: »

There is definitely something going on there.
Its probably more of a case of everybody knowing their place and realising that taking on the establishment in Britain will kill their career.

Its just how things are in Britain. You don't need a conspiracy.

Particularly in the past. Royalty/Sirs/Top politicians were/are untouchable.

People know their place and their place is not to question their betters !

The Catholic Church/Top Politicians/Judiciary/High Ranking Gardai had/have the same system in the Irish "Republic"

Its not really a conspiracy, its just people knowing their place.

thats what a conspiracy is. whether its brought about for reasons of 'knowing one's place' or not.

conspiracy

1. the act of conspiring.

2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.

3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.

4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.

blinding

DamagedTrax wrote: »

thats what a conspiracy is. whether its brought about for reasons of 'knowing one's place' or not.

You may be right.

But in Britain and Ireland these people do not have to conspire .

They were/are untouchable.

[Deleted User]

DamagedTrax wrote: »

the thing is, there usually is a document misplaced. look at the current uk paedo ring investigation. thats clearly a conspiracy to cover up.

That is indeed a characteristic of such conversations that I have observed often. Their conspiracy theory will rely on a buried document - and their supporting argument for the existence of such documents - is that they can point to entirely unrelated cases where documents _have_ been buried.

In other words the existence of missing or buried documents is - to them at least - justification that the document they want to declare buried exists.

This - to me - is a bit like trying to establish the guilt of an accused in a murder trial - by pointing out that other convicted murderers exist in the world. It simply does not wash.

A similar line of "reasoning" shows up in supernatural discussions. The believer in supernatural explanations will respond - when you point out their lack of ANY evidence for their claims - that there are many things we do not understand - or that there were things now held to be true that once we had no evidence for.

It is exactly the same thing. They are trying to explain away their lack of evidence - by pointing out that entirely unrelated scenarios where there was also a lack of evidence.

Are documents lost or buried? I am sure they are, a lot. Does that mean the document needed to support a given conspiracy theory was therefore misplaced or buried? No. Not even a little bit.

I am not educated on the full list of fallacies like "Appeal to Authority" and "Appeal to the majority" so perhaps it exists already - but if it does not already contain it then the list should also have the fallacy of "Appeal to Similarity" on there for this type of "thinking".

And as I said I also have a credibility problem with it. In a world where an american president could not even cover up a blow job, the level of competence and complexity required for the kind of cover ups Conspiracy People get off on relative to this is simply absurd to expect.

Hoop66

I read a piece, a few years ago, that suggested that the underlying psychological reason for the emergence of conspiracy theories was down to people needing to feel that their governments were powerful entities who were able to orchestrate these type of conspiracies.

Rather than the incompetent arses they actually are.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

That is indeed a characteristic of such conversations that I have observed often. Their conspiracy theory will rely on a buried document - and their supporting argument for the existence of such documents - is that they can point to entirely unrelated cases where documents _have_ been buried.

In other words the existence of missing or buried documents is - to them at least - justification that the document they want to declare buried exists.

This - to me - is a bit like trying to establish the guilt of an accused in a murder trial - by pointing out that other convicted murderers exist in the world. It simply does not wash.

A similar line of "reasoning" shows up in supernatural discussions. The believer in supernatural explanations will respond - when you point out their lack of ANY evidence for their claims - that there are many things we do not understand - or that there were things now held to be true that once we had no evidence for.

It is exactly the same thing. They are trying to explain away their lack of evidence - by pointing out that entirely unrelated scenarios where there was also a lack of evidence.

Are documents lost or buried? I am sure they are, a lot. Does that mean the document needed to support a given conspiracy theory was therefore misplaced or buried? No. Not even a little bit.

I am not educated on the full list of fallacies like "Appeal to Authority" and "Appeal to the majority" so perhaps it exists already - but if it does not already contain it then the list should also have the fallacy of "Appeal to Similarity" on there for this type of "thinking".

And as I said I also have a credibility problem with it. In a world where an american president could not even cover up a blow job, the level of competence and complexity required for the kind of cover ups Conspiracy People get off on relative to this is simply absurd to expect.

It's called "anomaly hunting".

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=anomaly+hunting+definition

Real Psycrow

I don't think you can talk conspiracy theorists around into see that they're claims are ridiculous.

I read this article years ago about how Creationism is a thinking disorder in the same way that anorexia is. Have a read. (Edit, it seems I can't post links as I'm a new user, just one that's been a member for 6 years. Anyway if you google "Creationist Anorexic", its the first link returned)

I think the same thing probably applies to conspiracy theorists.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRV_MsbAZv4

Peist2007

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So I have this friend who believes all the usual one world government, 9/11 was an inside job, man did not land on the moon stuff. Really annoys people with his ramblings.

But here is the thing. His mind is warped in to this. It does not matter what you say or how you try to talk sense to him - he does not listen. His mind is made up and that is that.

When asked for reason and evidence it always comes back to interweb videos.

I mean why not believe a young fella in his bed room who is an expert on every scientific and financial theory known to man?

I don't get how anyone can be so weak minded and gullible. Yet so many seem to be.

It comes to the point where you have run out of things to say. How does one deal with these people in preferably an adult way without resorting to violence out of rage?

You would have included the Americans spying on the entire world as one of his crazy beliefs until, well, it was shown that they are spying on us. Indiscriminately.

Whilst talk of lizard people etc are beyond the realms, we have no idea of the extent of what is going on. And you certainly wont hear it on RTE, BBC or Sky.

Beano

Yogosan wrote: »

Detached Retina wrote: »

It would be more difficult to fake the moon landings than to actually complete them.

[Deleted User]

jh79 wrote: »

It's called "anomaly hunting".

I knew it would be on the fallacy list somewhere.

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I don't think you can talk conspiracy theorists around into see that they're claims are ridiculous.

Indeed - if the _less_ evidence they have for their claims actually makes them _more_ convinced by them - then what level of rational conversation will penetrate that?

KomradeBishop

Deleted User wrote: »

That is indeed a characteristic of such conversations that I have observed often. Their conspiracy theory will rely on a buried document - and their supporting argument for the existence of such documents - is that they can point to entirely unrelated cases where documents _have_ been buried.

In other words the existence of missing or buried documents is - to them at least - justification that the document they want to declare buried exists.

This - to me - is a bit like trying to establish the guilt of an accused in a murder trial - by pointing out that other convicted murderers exist in the world. It simply does not wash.

A similar line of "reasoning" shows up in supernatural discussions. The believer in supernatural explanations will respond - when you point out their lack of ANY evidence for their claims - that there are many things we do not understand - or that there were things now held to be true that once we had no evidence for.

It is exactly the same thing. They are trying to explain away their lack of evidence - by pointing out that entirely unrelated scenarios where there was also a lack of evidence.

Are documents lost or buried? I am sure they are, a lot. Does that mean the document needed to support a given conspiracy theory was therefore misplaced or buried? No. Not even a little bit.

I am not educated on the full list of fallacies like "Appeal to Authority" and "Appeal to the majority" so perhaps it exists already - but if it does not already contain it then the list should also have the fallacy of "Appeal to Similarity" on there for this type of "thinking".

And as I said I also have a credibility problem with it. In a world where an american president could not even cover up a blow job, the level of competence and complexity required for the kind of cover ups Conspiracy People get off on relative to this is simply absurd to expect.

Might be this fallacy:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy

Most conspiracy theories are very easily identified as woo, but it's valuable to be able to identify exactly what is wrong with arguments backing them (pretty good training on critical thinking) - and ya, most of it comes down to "but there's no evidence".

Sometimes though, a conspiracy theory is a more extreme/loonified version of an actual truth, and there is value in using critical thinking to pick apart all the arguments backing it which are wrong, while giving the overall idea benefit of the doubt, long enough to test each part of it for plausibility.

A good example of something that, until the last few years, was a 'conspiracy-theory-worthy' idea - of the variety of 'lizard-people controlling the world' - was how banks actually create money when they give out loans (deposits/savings are not actually used to make loans).

This used to be regularly dismissed as worthy only of 'New World Order' or similar conspiracy theories (even was a part of those 'Zeitgeist' conspiracy movies) - but this year, it is now slowly becoming a mainstream idea, after the Bank of England confirmed/backed it (just read the first few sentences there - it's all the evidence anyone should need).

It's a topic almost unlike any other I've ever encountered, for generating cognitive dissonance, where many people reflexively dismiss it, and then are kind of stunned when they realize that it's true - sometimes still can't believe it, even when it's shown to them; people have always been taught that bank loans come from deposits/savings, but it's not true at all, the money is pretty much created from nothing (not without limits, mind) - and this makes it incredibly hard for people to even consider that that is wrong.
My favourite quote on it, is from John Kenneth Galbraith: "The process by which money is created is so simple the mind is repelled."

Once people understand that, and the implications of it (how it gives banks/finance enormous power over society and politics, when they are left unrestricted), you can then kind of see, how lunatic 'New World Order' etc. conspiracy theories can be whipped-up from it - and that these conspiracy theories, even though they are 99% bullshít, touch on one of the most important (yet not-well-known) truths out there, which in turn lead to some of the most important political/economic (and overall democratic) questions of the last few centuries: "Is it democratic for banks to have a monopoly on money creation?", "Who should have the power to create money?".

It's a line of discussion almost nobody is well acquainted with (or even able to discuss), because it requires discussing economic topics, that even economists don't know a lot about (since most economists also have been taught that loans come from savings/deposits); there is no conspiracy behind any of that either, it's just a world-population-wide misconception, that has lasted an incredibly long time.

BeerWolf

Not to scare you OP, but there's a lot of going ons that aren't reported on your usual media.

The great thing about the internet is how it is, currently, a free source for information. But Governments have been hard pushing for censorship of it, for the very basic fact of a want to control it. Control the media and you can mould the minds of people, that's how propaganda works.

A very good example would be with the Americans and their opinions of Israel. Jews control the media in the US and have done a good job of making people favour Israel always portraying them as "The Good Guys", regardless of the many unreported atrocities Israel commits. Come in the internet, and public awareness has risen... and Israel has quickly become one of the least liked countries in the world.

Fuzzytrooper

I for one welcome DeV and our new Lizard overlords.

Hoop66

Peist2007 wrote: »

You would have included the Americans spying on the entire world as one of his crazy beliefs until, well, it was shown that they are spying on us. Indiscriminately.

I think anyone with even a basic understanding of how internet/comms work these days wasn't in the least bit surprised to hear that the NSA etc have been spying on us for years.