Serial

Looking forward to the next installment. I am a latecomer to it and listened to the first nine podcasts one evening last week- going to be tough now to wait a week between them!

Rosy Posy

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I think that's key to how this story is going to end. I personally don't think he's guilty, but as a suspect, he should never have been found guilty. There was more than a reasonable doubt that he didn't commit the murder. If they innocence project can create any other plausible narrative, and I think its more than possible to set up a scenario where Jay is the murderer with at least the same amount of "evidence" that convicted Adnan, then they should be able to overturn the conviction

Apparently not, once he's been found guilty it's pretty much impossible to get him out without new evidence to exonerate him or an alternative perpetrator...according to lots of legal people on reddit anyway.

Dubh Geannain

Okay now I think Adnan didn't kill Hae it and had nothing to do with it

The latest episode has punched more holes in the poilce's timeline. I'd already huge doubts with Jay's story but I expected the police would have scrutinised its finer details because that's the least they would have expected from the (****ty) defence team.

Two week break for Thanksgiving! NNN:eek::eek::eek::eek:!!

The call he received in Jay's friends apartment now looks like it might have been from Hae's sister. Although highlighted before it really does seem there was no phone booth at the Best Buy. My thinking that it may have happened in the library carpark is dismissed so readily due to its non-discrete location that I'm out of ideas of how Adnan could have done it as Jay's story is shot to pieces and him getting a suspicious phone call is explained. Then ringing the police station to tell them they got the wrong Asian. Why would he bring himself to the cops attention?

It's amazing the way the story is evolving as it goes along as listeners get in contact with the show.

Also -

When the second lawyer in the appeal stood up and asked for it to be considered a "Crime of Passion". If I was Adnan I would have flipped out there and then.

Rosy Posy

I'm really mindful of the way that the story's being told and how that manipulates the listener's perception of the case. I think it's madness the people on reddit who are 100% convinced either way- I'm just going along the journey that Sarah is taking us on and trying to remain objective. I think it's pretty obvious that things didn't happen in exactly the way they were set out in the prosecution and that Jay had some involvement. Other than that I'm open to what unfolds over the final three installments. This episode was one of my favorites- really emotionally articulate in relation to Adnan and Hae. I also think it was powerful that we heard so much from Adnan after not hearing him at all for the last two weeks, and from him being somewhat hostile in the previous episode.

Dubh Geannain

I'd agree. One of my favourite episodes too. In no small part because of the new information coming to light from people getting in contact with Sarah after listening to the show.

My opinion may well change again but Adnan is unflappable in his denial. So unless some more testimonies come to light in the next three episodes (and given the show's form there probably will be). I am firmly in his camp. I'm not 100% sure he didn't do it. But I am 100% sure that he shouldn't be in prison based on the evidence we know.

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

It's amazing the way the story is evolving as it goes along as listeners get in contact with the show.

Yes, I thought it was interesting that this was the first episode we saw that contained information brought about by the existence of the podcast itsefl. It adds a whole new layer to it.

One the one hand, the podcast brings it back into the public consciousness and may encourage someone to think "Oh, I have accurate information and I should tell Sarah". But it may also encourage those who want their 15 minutes, who want to exonerate Adnan using a public forum in the hopes he'll be released or who want to condemn him for the same reasons.

I think the information given to Sarah was probably accurate but it's worth bearing in mind that people could be aiming to please or have ulterior motives.

I enjoyed the episode, especially how it humanised Hae. We haven't heard much about her and at a time when people are getting too into this and posting Sarah and Dana's phone numbers on reddit, it's helpful to bring people back down to earth and remind them that they're dealing with real people.

I wasn't hugely surprised by the revelations, except maybe that

Adnan called the police.

I think it's always been clear that Jay was lying about the timeline but the fact that Hae

died later may actually be bad for Adnan because there is undisputable evidence that Adnan was with Jay later in the day.

Two interesting links:
The Complicated Ethics of "Serial", the most popular podcast of all time

CBS interview with Adnan's mother and brother

Giruilla wrote: »

At this stage.. I'm convinced Adnan is guilty, and that Jay got caught up in it afterwards as he says.

The one thing I don't buy, is Adnan saying he doesn't remember the day.. that it was like any other. Everyone else in the story seems to have some recollection of the days events.
I think the reason Adnan is saying he doesn't remember anything to SK, is that it's his best bet to create doubt. He can probably see how complicated the case is with the info SK has given him, and how any story he fabricates of what happened that day could get extremely messy on details and shot down easily. If he was telling the truth he'd have a version of events and stick to that no matter what.

Have a feeling SK is holding something big back though..

I wrote this before, but have to say I've gone full circle after listening to all the eps, then re-listening back a few and am now convinced it was Jay. 90% sure.. the Nisha call is still a problem for Adnan.

I swayed a little bit over to the 'Jay did it' camp the course of the series but as of now I still think Adnan did it with a lot of help from Jay. Someone on Reddit suggested Adnan's reluctance to ever admit he did it might have to do with his family honor/friends finding out. It would be too awful for him to tell them and is why he won't spill the beans on Jay's role.

I think Jay just got to the police first before Adnan got any clever ideas and tried to pin it on him.

Amazingfun wrote: »

I swayed a little bit over to the 'Jay did it' camp the course of the series but as of now I still think Adnan did it with a lot of help from Jay. Someone on Reddit suggested Adnan's reluctance to ever admit he did it might have to do with his family honor/friends finding out. It would be too awful for him to tell them and is why he won't spill the beans on Jay's role.

I think Jay just got to the police first before Adnan got any clever ideas and tried to pin it on him.

The idea that Adnan would decide to murder Hae during the time he knows she'll be picking her cousin up and will be noticed missing straight away is extremely unlikely. Not only that, but to decide to murder Hae - like Jay says - and choose strangulation as the method is nuts.
Jay's motive and method on the other hand all fit
http://www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Adnan-statement-re-Hae-and-Jay-cheating-to-paralegal.png (Notes from the defense attorney)

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

I have no doubt that Jay was involved, probably more heavily than he let on but it's always been confusing to me why he would do that for Adnan. They weren't even very close friends.

Could it all be down to his fear and distrust of the police? He mentioned in one of the recorded interviews that he had been grabbed outside his house one day, shoved on the ground, etc and I think he said it was the police who did it. And there is a certain "don't trust the police, ever" mantra in some communities in America. I mean, look at what's happening in Ferguson right now.

Someone found that picture of the girl who looks like Hae from the magazine that Sarah referenced in episode 9.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

Highly probable Hae confronted Jay about his infidelities (possibly with Jenn) and told him she would be telling Stephanie. Jay lost it and strangled her.

Strangulation is such a risky form of murder.. if you were planning on murdering someone - like Jay testifies that Adnan is doing - why not stab, or blunt force. Or why not plan it better than murdering someone in a car park.

The whole case shouts unpremeditated murder.. and Jay's story, confused about what to do, calling to Cathy's, reflects this.
Jay admitted the shovel used to bury Hae was his.. he went back to wipe his finger prints off it. He then burned his clothes afterwards!

Giruilla wrote: »

The idea that Adnan would decide to murder Hae during the time he knows she'll be picking her cousin up and will be noticed missing straight away is extremely unlikely. Not only that, but to decide to murder Hae - like Jay says - and choose strangulation as the method is nuts.
Jay's motive and method on the other hand all fit
http://www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Adnan-statement-re-Hae-and-Jay-cheating-to-paralegal.png (Notes from the defense attorney)

Yeah I saw that post from Rabia Choudry before. Meh.
Not enough for me to pin it all on Jay.

I think Adnan got angry and with Hae and lost control. Others have posited the theory that the library was where he killed her and it sounds plausible to me.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

I have no doubt that Jay was involved, probably more heavily than he let on but it's always been confusing to me why he would do that for Adnan. They weren't even very close friends.

Could it all be down to his fear and distrust of the police? He mentioned in one of the recorded interviews that he had been grabbed outside his house one day, shoved on the ground, etc and I think he said it was the police who did it. And there is a certain "don't trust the police, ever" mantra in some communities in America. I mean, look at what's happening in Ferguson right now.

Someone found that picture of the girl who looks like Hae from the magazine that Sarah referenced in episode 9.

I do think there is something to Jay's previous claim that he was the rumored "criminal element" in their circle and is why Adnan got him on board. Maybe his drug dealing and the mistrust of the police you mention figure in too.

I always try to remember what it was like to be 17 years old and how much reputation and being cool meant. Perhaps all of this tied into it but when the reality of what they'd done hit home....and Jenn was getting scared she was going to be charged with something in connection with the murder.....he ran to the police with his version first.

Giruilla wrote: »

Highly probable Hae confronted Jay about his infidelities (possibly with Jenn) and told him she would be telling Stephanie. Jay lost it and strangled her.

Strangulation is such a risky form of murder.. if you were planning on murdering someone - like Jay testifies that Adnan is doing - why not stab, or blunt force. Or why not plan it better than murdering someone in a car park.

The whole case shouts unpremeditated murder.. and Jay's story, confused about what to do, calling to Cathy's, reflects this.
Jay admitted the shovel used to bury Hae was his.. he went back to wipe his finger prints off it. He then burned his clothes afterwards!

Possible. But would she do this when she was short for time to collect her cousin?

And this is the day that Jay just so happens to have Adnan's car and phone?

If Jay acted alone, the logistics of moving cars get crazy. Say, he killed Hae. He needs to move her car so he has to leave Adnan's car behind somewhere. Once he's dumped Hae's car, how does he get back to Adnan's car? Walking? It doesn't fit for me.

On the second bit in bold, I would disagree. As you say, it's unusual to "plan" to strangle someone. It's usually a crime of passion, using the only weapon you actually have on hand at the time - yourself.

Amazingfun wrote: »

I think Adnan got angry and with Hae and lost control.

You realise that this isn't the reason Jay testified Adnan killed Hae?
Jay's whole story is that Adnan premeditatively murdered Hae.
Yet you'd still believe Adnan killed Hae which is based almost solely on Jay's testimony.

Real Psycrow

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

What motivation would Jay have, though? Money? Or that he just happened to be there during a crime of passion and felt he was involved because of that?

I think its more than possible that Jay came onto Hae and she rejected him and whether she threatened to tell Stephanie or not, Jay was fearful she would so strangled her. The lawyers reference to what lengths he'd go to to not jeopardise his relationship with Stephanie and the possibility of him playing away point to that too.

However, Rather than finding a killer when we might not know all the facts yet because of the way the podcast is being presented, I think the real question is was there enough evidence to convict Adnan regardless of his guilt and regardless of the extent of Jay's involvement.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Possible. But would she do this when she was short for time to collect her cousin?

She wasn't. School finished at 2.15, and she only had to collect her cousin at 3.15.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

And this is the day that Jay just so happens to have Adnan's car and phone?

That was a regular occurrence apparently. Jay picked Adnan up for football regularly and Jay didn't have a phone.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

On the second bit in bold, I would disagree. As you say, it's unusual to "plan" to strangle someone. It's usually a crime of passion, using the only weapon you actually have on hand at the time - yourself.

Jay testified that the murder was premeditated so it wasn't a crime of passion. He had the intention to kill before hand, he wasn't just left with his only weapon being his hands.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

If Jay acted alone, the logistics of moving cars get crazy. Say, he killed Hae. He needs to move her car so he has to leave Adnan's car behind somewhere. Once he's dumped Hae's car, how does he get back to Adnan's car? Walking? It doesn't fit for me.

He repeatedly called Jenn for a lift that day.

Giruilla wrote: »

You realise that this isn't the reason Jay testified Adnan killed Hae?
Jay's whole story is that Adnan premeditatively murdered Hae.
Yet you'd still believe Adnan killed Hae which is based almost solely on Jay's testimony.

But it's not solely on that. It's mainly circumstantial. The timeline of Adnan's activities that day etc.

I know what Jay said but I still think Adnan lost it with her. We all know Jay told a tale that allowed him to essentially wash his hands of any real responsibility but it doesn't mean he wasn't involved.
I ought to make clear I am no 'serial supersleuth' (I came into this quite late and binged-listened nine episodes in a day lol). The theories I've discussed here have been made by some on Reddit and the Slate serial podcast. It just rings true to me.

Giruilla wrote: »

You realise that this isn't the reason Jay testified Adnan killed Hae?
Jay's whole story is that Adnan premeditatively murdered Hae.
Yet you'd still believe Adnan killed Hae which is based almost solely on Jay's testimony.

Jay said that he'd heard Adnan say a few times that he was going to kill Hae but that he didn't take it seriously. It's possible to have this simmering kind of "I'm angry with her, she deserves to die" idea but then also to act in the heat of the moment. I think Jay was influenced quite a bit by the police to secure the "highest" possible conviction, pre-meditated murder. Or maybe Jay is completely making those comments up to bolster the case on the advice of police or off his own bat.

Giruilla wrote: »

She wasn't. School finished at 2.15, and she only had to collect her cousin at 3.15.

Yes but if you believe the testimony of Summer from Episode 9, Hae stayed and spoke with her for quite a while after school about how she couldn't help her at the wrestling match and this would have made her pushed for time to pick up her cousin.

Summer never talked to the detectives, there’s no mention of her in their notes, but she’s not the only person who said they saw Hae after school that day. Becky saw her right after school, Debbie Warren said she talked to Hae too, the police notes say she saw her at approximately 3 p.m. inside the school near the gym which would match Summer’s memory.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Yes but if you believe the testimony of Summer from Episode 9, Hae stayed and spoke with her for quite a while after school about how she couldn't help her at the wrestling match and this would have made her pushed for time to pick up her cousin.

Yes, but whats the point here? That Hae didn't have enough time to confront Jay about his infidelity, but she did have enough time to give Adnan a lift to - seemingly where?
If she had time to do one thing, she had time to do the other. And if anything, she'd have more time to confront Jay than to give Adnan a lift somewhere.
And if she did give Adnan a lift.. why would he kill her, knowing she's on route to pick up her cousin. It's insane.

Real Psycrow

Giruilla wrote: »

Yes, but whats the point here? That Hae didn't have enough time to confront Jay about his infidelity, but she did have enough time to give Adnan a lift to - seemingly where?
If she had time to do one thing, she had time to do the other. And if anything, she'd have more time to confront Jay than to give Adnan a lift somewhere.
And if she did give Adnan a lift.. why would he kill her, knowing she's on route to pick up her cousin. It's insane.

I don't think either of these are the point of Summer's story. Adnan was convicted on the missing 21 minutes he can't explain his whereabouts for after school the day Hae went missing. He can explain where he was for the rest of the day.

Now Summer is saying that Hae was still alive during that 21 minutes.

Real Psycrow wrote: »

I don't think either of these are the point of Summer's story. Adnan was convicted on the missing 21 minutes he can't explain his whereabouts for after school the day Hae went missing. He can explain where he was for the rest of the day.
Now Summer is saying that Hae was still alive during that 21 minutes.

I was responding to FouxDaFaFa's point that Hae wouldn't have had enough time to confront Jay..

volchitsa

I've finally caught up with this, and like others have been flipping from It's Adnan, to "it has to be Jay" and back, and various intermediate opinions...

It is compelling radio, I must say, but I agree that we are being taken along for the ride by Sarah, and I think there will be several more switchbacks before the end.

Anyone here think the Innocence Project will be involved in the denouement?

(Separate question : when the poster has posted a (hidden) spoiler, is it possible for anyone else to make it visible? Now that I'm up to date, I'd be interested in reading those posts in full but I can't see how to.)