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Child Item

Your kid is not autistic, Your kid is an asshole, It's your fault.

Pacing Mule

I've been given a link to a facebook group that has caused great offence and distress to a good friend of mine. Quite frankly I'm offended and disgusted myself.

The group is for like minded people who are child free by choice. I have absolutely no problem with that choice or being a member of such a group. What has me disgusted is the profile picture which contains the text:

Your kid is not autistic
Your kid is an asshole
It's your fault

Trolling or just an incredibly warped person ?

My friend reported the group to facebook but got a generic message back saying the group was not closed. She tried to explain to the admin of the page how hurtful it was to a parent of an autistic child but was blocked from the group.

The group can be found here.

I've just reported it myself and if anyone else wants to I'd be very grateful. But in the mean time I'd be interested to hear the thoughts here. Is that free speech ? Should it be acceptable ?

Edit: There is an explanation on their page posted below by amdublin.

Since many of you just don't get it, here is a simple explanation of the cover photo:

We are not attacking autistic kids.

We are attacking parents who do one or both of the following:

(1) Use their child's autism, or any other disorder, such as ADD 10 years ago, as an excuse to allow the child to behave poorly.

(2) Invent a diagnosis of autism, or any other disorder, such as ADD 10 years ago, because they can't be bothered to put in the time and effort required to raise their child properly.

This group has many autistic members, and they agree with the message expressed here. When parents use autism, either real or self-diagnosed, in place of good parenting, all autistic people, both children and adults, suffer. Nobody takes them seriously when everyone is supposedly autistic, as they are assumed guilty by association.

It is unfortunate that many of you have chosen to jump to conclusions. Surely you teach your children to get the facts before making a decision. This is something that should carry over to adulthood too.

For me context is key here.

The group is set up and labelled for those who are childless by choice. Why use that image ?

Crusading against a minority subset of parents of kids with autism doesn't add up coming from such a group. What makes more sense is that this label / image was put there as a slag / attack on parents in general. That post was only put up after attention started to be drawn to it and is pure bull****.

My view is that they are attacking every single parent of an autistic child with such a general statement. There are people who will play that card of course but even if you are genuine how can you justify the distress caused to genuine cases who read that ?

The last line in particular is misleading because anyone who questions the group, tries to debate or speak to the admin is then removed from the group and comments deleted.

Further edit / update. The image below is apparently taken from the group - you can only see it once you are a member.

http://omg.wthax.org/7ghKD6.png

If this is true (and I personally believe it is) it makes an absolute mockery of the explanation posted on their site.

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hatrickpatrick

Find the page appalling, won't be reporting it as I believe in free speech.

robbiezero

Why would anyone get "great offence and distress" from some stupid Facebook group that could have been set up by a 15 year old?
People shouldn't get bothered about what anonymous people on the internet think about anything.
Be different if those were the views of a politician or high profile person of influence.

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's the point this group is trying to make, albeit in a rather misguided fashion which causes their point to be misconstrued and/or missed completely.

Their message is aimed at parents who excuse their children's inappropriate social behavior by claiming their children have undiagnosed cognitive or behavioural disorders.

Its a child free group so presumably the only people in it are those without children. No one with a kid is going to see that so what purpose does it serve only to put parents down? They should probably talk about all the amazing things they can do with their childfree lives rather than judge situations and people they know little about.

smash

I have a friend who says her kid has ADHD but he's never been diagnosed. I don't think he does because he can seem to concentrate on being an asshole more than most.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

Its a child free group so presumably the only people in it are those without children. No one with a kid is going to see that so what purpose does it serve only to put parents down? They should probably talk about all the amazing things they can do with their childfree lives rather than judge situations and people they know little about.

It's on Facebook so I think it's inevitable that people with children are going to see it (curiosity gets the better of them), but you're right, that's exactly the purpose it serves - to judge other people who have chosen to have children and to put them down in order to validate their choice of child-free 'superiority' so to speak.

They strike me as a group of very bitter individuals who really don't have much else going on in their own lives that they derive pleasure from a common interest in judgment of other people.

TireeTerror

Thanks for highlighting the group. I joined to see what its all about. Regardless of what I find, I wont be reporting it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I do not like censorship. I find the idea of reporting it more offensive that whatever may be contained withing the page.

dellas1979

Hhmm this one is a toughie alright to get the head around.

People who have children have an apathy towards people who have kids with autism/ADHD and other learning/behavioural issues.

People who dont have children also do have an apathy towards people who have kids diagnosed with autism/ADHD and other learning/behavioural issues.

I think (but as pointed out its phrased to get a reaction) childless people may see it from an outside situation.

If little Johnny or Mary have been diagnosed with any developmental problems, childless people do understand.

If little Johnny or Mary havent been diagnosed, and are acting the brat, sometimes it does happen that poor/lack of parenting skills will come further down a list of "whats wrong". People do prefer to have a "reason" for things. Its our nature. For some, it is a "diagnosis". Rather than being responsible, and saying "cut it out, kid".

I remember once, a former colleague of mine told me a friend of hers called to her house. They sat at a (glass) table with a 3 year old. The child was being fed sitting on the womans lap. The child had a (metal) spoon. My colleague said, the child hit the table many times and quite hard. Instead of telling the child to stop, the parent just continued talking. My colleague had to ask her friend to make the child stop (take the spoon away/whatever) for fear they'd crack the table. The parent said she thought the child might have some attention difficulty issues. Once the spoon was taken off the child, the most bizarre thing happened-they stopped.

So, effectively, the parent is allocating the child an issue. Creating a diagnosis as a reason to the issue (like as said above, everyone wants a reason for everything). The apathy is renegged because its realised that rather than the child having a genuine issue, its moreso parenting issues that are at play.

Laura Palmer

I know they say it's directed at parents who use their child's autism as an excuse when they have, for example, tantrums. But sometimes it's not an excuse, it's an explanation. Sometimes some children who have autism DO act out - e.g. when they are out of their comfort zone/routine.

GreeBo

Laura Palmer wrote: »

I know they say it's directed at parents who use their child's autism as an excuse when they have, for example, tantrums. But sometimes it's not an excuse, it's an explanation. Sometimes some children who have autism DO act out - e.g. when they are out of their comfort zone/routine.

Yes sometimes it is...when those kids actually are autistic, but often the kids are just being dicks due to lack of boundaries and parental care. Thats the point of the site.
But if they just said that no one would notice.

Those on here shouting "Autism is real" "you dont know what its like" are completely missing the point of the page and jumping to an (understandably) emotive reaction.

Consider it this way, some people are fat because they have specific, diagnosed illnesses that cause them to retain weight, some people are just fat asses that eat too much and dont exercise enough.
Its pretty offensive for someone who actually has something wrong with them to be confronted by a lard ass who has self diagnosed themselves with "a glandular problem" as they shovel in the Pringles.

Its the same thing.

Laura Palmer

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes sometimes it is...when those kids actually are autistic, but often the kids are just being dicks due to lack of boundaries and parental care. Thats the point of the site.
But if they just said that no one would notice.

Those on here shouting "Autism is real" "you dont know what its like" are completely missing the point of the page and jumping to an (understandably) emotive reaction.

Consider it this way, some people are fat because they have specific, diagnosed illnesses that cause them to retain weight, some people are just fat asses that eat too much and dont exercise enough.
Its pretty offensive for someone who actually has something wrong with them to be confronted by a lard ass who has self diagnosed themselves with "a glandular problem" as they shovel in the Pringles.

Its the same thing.

But I thought people were saying it in relation to children who actually ARE autistic but their autism is being used as an excuse too much, as opposed to their parents deciding by themselves that their children are autistic (something which I doubt occurs; maybe it occurs a small bit with regards to ADHD).

GreeBo

Laura Palmer wrote: »

But I thought people were saying it in relation to children who actually ARE autistic but their autism is being used as an excuse too much, as opposed to their parents deciding by themselves that their children are autistic (something which I doubt occurs; maybe it occurs a small bit with regards to ADHD).

Indeed it does occur Im afraid.
But equally just because a child is autistic doesn't mean that you just abandon them to their own devices and blame everything on their autism.

In the same way that someone with a real glandular problem causing them to gain weight loses my sympathy if they are constantly eating junk.
(Obviously choosing to eat junk doesnt fully equate with an autistic child acting out as a result of being autistic, but I think the point stands)

mountsky

Whoever is indeed responsible for putting the page up is the one that's an Assxxxxe,ignorance is bliss and as for karma..

Laura Palmer

GreeBo wrote: »

just because a child is autistic doesn't mean that you just abandon them to their own devices and blame everything on their autism.

Definitely agree there, but from my limited knowledge (via a friend whose son is autistic) there are times this is really hard. For example, he had a tantrum in a shopping-centre. Something small (as can be the case) set him off, and he was really really upset, and she was trying to calm him down, trying to remove him (non forcefully) from the building, but this was just upsetting him more.
And she felt like people were looking on, thinking she was an atrocious mother. It's very very unenviable.

GreeBo

mountsky wrote: »

Whoever is indeed responsible for putting the page up is the one that's an Assxxxxe,ignorance is bliss and as for karma..

I think its incredible how people can react to something while they clearly are not taking the time to read it properly or attempt to comprehend the point its making.

Marge: You know Homer, when I found out about this I went through a wide range of emotions: first I was nervous, then anxious, then wary, then apprehensive, then kinda sleepy, then worried, and then concerned. But now I realize that being a spaceman is something you have to do.
Homer: Who's doing what now?

One eyed Jack

What they're talking about basically is something along the lines of factitious disorders (by proxy) -

A factitious disorder is a condition in which a person acts as if they have an illness by deliberately producing, feigning, or exaggerating symptoms. Factitious disorder by proxy is a condition in which a person deliberately produces, feigns, or exaggerates symptoms in a person in their care.

Münchausen syndrome, a severe form of factitious disorder, was the first kind identified, and was for a period the umbrella term for all such disorders.

People with this condition may produce symptoms by contaminating urine samples, taking hallucinogens, injecting themselves with bacteria to produce infections, and other similar behaviour.

They might be motivated to perpetrate factitious disorders either as a patient or by proxy as a caregiver to gain any variety of benefits including attention, nurturance, sympathy, and leniency that are seen as not obtainable any other way. In contrast, somatoform disorders, though also diagnoses of exclusion, are characterized by multiple somatic complaints that are not produced intentionally.

Still doesn't mean their 'message' isn't a piss poor effort in itself that displays an inexcusable lack of sensitivity and insecurity on their part though, but like I maintained earlier - they're unlikely to see that for themselves, and even less likely to care what their own judgement says about them.

Pacing Mule

GreeBo wrote: »

I think its incredible how people can react to something while they clearly are not taking the time to read it properly or attempt to comprehend the point its making.

On the other side. I think it's incredible that people can't see that the point being made is a cover story.

The explained point itself as a stand alone and properly explained point is valid if it is being made directly to those parents it describes.

But that's not the case here. The group is a closed group for those who wish to remain childless. They have no basis, mandate or genuine reason to address a specific set of parents who are using autism as an excuse.

Instead they put up that text as their avatar / image on facebook. A group that advocates childless living has no reason to have such a statement as their image unless it is a direct dig at parents in general. We want to be child less because kids can be brats and when they do it's because parents blame autism is the vibe from that picture. Anyone who questions it is banned from the group. The group admin claims to have wide support but deletes anything that isn't support. And in the mean time parents who do live with and raise genuinely diagnosed kids are left looking at a message that says their kid is not autistic, he's just an asshole and it's their own fault. That is disgusting trolling at its best.

How you can't see that is beyond me.

FullblownRose

It's an unfortunate fact that many people, including people on this thread who claim to be autistic themselves, are highly ignorant of the complexity of it. There are more triggers for autistic 'meltdowns' than any one autistic person could list, because it's also highly individual. So, it's impossible to look at a behaviour and say, that person may be autistic but i think the behaviour is also a result of a lack of boundaries or discipline. In saying that you are demonstrating that you don't understand your own ignorance, because unless you know the child very well you don't know what's causing the meltdown. SSomething is causing it, autistic eole generally don't do these things out of brattiness. The parent could be doing the only thing they can do by waiting the 'tantrum' out.

Balmed Out

For the apologists,

They made a blanket statement about autistic kids. Despite the explanation that fact renders much of the explanation bollix. They could have changed the picture to say some or a minority or whatever. I reported the page too for all the difference itll make.

Teyla Emmagan

I know a woman whose eldest boy is now autistic again. I tend to have trouble keeping my jaw closed on the regular occasions when she tells me 'he's not autistic anymore'. He only seems to be autistic when he falls behind a bit, in the normal way kids do when they're growing up. But when he catches up with the rest of his peers he loses the autism again. She's not even trying too be funny, albeit in poor taste, she's actually that ignorant.

Actually I should just slap her, on behalf of her son and anyone she comes in contact with who actually has a child with autism.

FullblownRose

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Find the page appalling, won't be reporting it as I believe in free speech.

There's meant to be rules about hate speech on Facebook.

Dravokivich

FullblownRose wrote: »

There's meant to be rules about hate speech on Facebook.

I don't see hate speech.

Sure they could have said in another way, "Your child needs you to act responsibly towards them," But then that'll be promoting good parenting advice and it's not what the group is about.

SEPT 23 1989

yes you have very strict boundaries with autism and those boundaries are set by the child,its when the boundaries are broken,thats when the meltdowns happen

FullblownRose

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't see hate speech.

Sure they could have said in another way, "Your child needs you to act responsibly towards them," But then that'll be promoting good parenting advice and it's not what the group is about.

It can be read as ''autism doesn't exist, it's an excuse for bad parenting'' which is hate speech, and very damaging.

It's entirely up to you whether you think it's worth reporting, but I have reported it under hate speech because I know how long it has taken for the little bit of awareness there is to come about.

When you consider that not so long ago doctors used to blame autism on ''refrigerator mothers'', ie cold mothers, bad parenting..there's really no excuse in my mind for people spreading ignorant and damaging misinformation.

One eyed Jack

FullblownRose wrote: »

There's meant to be rules about hate speech on Facebook.

This wouldn't qualify as hate speech though.

It's more along the lines of saying that parents who think their children would look cute with glasses are idiots (they're missing the reason why a child might actually need glasses).

It's saying that parents who claim their children's inappropriate behaviour is symptomatic or a consequence of undiagnosed ASD, are idiots (they're missing the difference between a child with an ASD, and a child who is just behaving inappropriately due to their parents lack of teaching their children how to behave appropriately).

It's a commentary on the parents, not on their children.

FullblownRose

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This wouldn't qualify as hate speech though.

It's more along the lines of saying that parents who think their children would look cute with glasses are idiots (they're missing the reason why a child might actually need glasses).

It's saying that parents who claim their children's inappropriate behaviour is symptomatic or a consequence of undiagnosed ASD, are idiots (they're missing the difference between a child with an ASD, and a child who is just behaving inappropriately due to their parents lack of teaching their children how to behave appropriately).

It's a commentary on the parents, not on their children.

Define hate speech?
It's directed at parents whose children are, at least according to the parents, autistic..and it uses the term ''assholes''.
It's not very nice speak, is it?

I agree with you, they are missing the point.

AudreyHepburn

I'm in two minds about this piece to be honest.

On the one hand it could be read as being insulting to those with Autism and their families. I don't pretend I understand the complex and enormous range of issues that constitutes Autism, ADD and ADHD and the difficulties that lie in dealing with some-one who has one of these problems. It must a living hell and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. And I certainty don't think you can accuse the parents of these children of letting them run wild, at least not in most cases.

I have certainly heard of cases of diagnosis of ADD and ADHD where the parents have ignored or refused to accept the diagnosis and put it down to the child being badly behaved or not stimulated enough in school etc. But these are few and fair between and I couldn't say whether this is due to the parents simply not wanting to believe there is something wrong with their child, or not caring. On balance though I think it's the former.

But on the flip side I do believe there are some parents out there whose children are simply badly behaved and undisciplined, with no underlying problems except a lack of proper parenting and that section of the article where the authors suggest that some parents pretend that their children's behavior is a result of a genuine problem, I do agree with. There's nothing wrong with criticizing genuine bad parenting.

So two minds like I said.

Balmed Out

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This wouldn't qualify as hate speech though.

I think it does, it would seem to me to deny the existence of a serious condition and to describe parents of such children as irresponsible and the victims of the condition as asshole's.

If espousing nonsense like that isn't hate speech then what is? Throwing up a far smaller explanation to the side doesn't wash for me.

Would walking about with a "Your not gay, Your just a confused idiot*" banner with a small "*just joking" at the bottom not be considered hate speech?

Dravokivich

FullblownRose wrote: »

It can be read as ''autism doesn't exist, it's an excuse for bad parenting'' which is hate speech, and very damaging.

No they aren't, I've bolded the bits that state they aren't saying that, from the information they've posted about themselves, which has been quoted here a number of times already.

Since many of you just don't get it, here is a simple explanation of the cover photo:

We are not attacking autistic kids.

We are attacking parents who do one or both of the following:

(1) Use their child's autism, or any other disorder, such as ADD 10 years ago, as an excuse to allow the child to behave poorly.

(2) Invent a diagnosis of autism, or any other disorder, such as ADD 10 years ago, because they can't be bothered to put in the time and effort required to raise their child properly.

This group has many autistic members, and they agree with the message expressed here. When parents use autism, either real or self-diagnosed, in place of good parenting, all autistic people, both children and adults, suffer. Nobody takes them seriously when everyone is supposedly autistic, as they are assumed guilty by association.

It is unfortunate that many of you have chosen to jump to conclusions. Surely you teach your children to get the facts before making a decision. This is something that should carry over to adulthood too.

I still don't see the hate speech.

RaRaRasputin

I don't see whats's so offensive about this. The only people who should rightfully be offended by this are the self-diagnosing tools who just reared little brats and like to blame it on someone/ something else.

Let's all unite and complain about everything...

FullblownRose

Dravokivich wrote: »

No they aren't, I've bolded the bits that state they aren't saying that, from the information they've posted about themselves, which has been quoted here a number of times already.

I still don't see the hate speech.

The name of the group is where the hate speech is.

The rest of that is utter nonsense. In all likelihood the 'many autistic members' are autistic when it suits them and they want to be the authority on who has autism and who is just an 'asshole'.