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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

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acequion

implausible wrote: »

Don't get so personal. You know nothing about any other element of my life, so don't generalise that my desire to get on with a new course is some kind of a character flaw.

If the only reason I was introducing new elements in to my teaching was out of fear, then I would perhaps deserve emotive descriptions such as "narrow-minded obedience" and "doggedly obeying orders." You seem to have missed the point that I argued my point and made my views known, but the course is now in, my concerns seem to have been addressed by the new proposals, and I can see the merits in the new course. I am enjoying teaching my students and I can see how it will benefit them.

But I suppose this is pure selfishness and "total disregard for majority concerns.":rolleyes:

Why on earth would I be personal and why would this be all about you!! You're dead right that I know nothing about you,nor do I want to.

Yes I read that what you say about making a big fuss about this last year.I don't see how last year is relevant as the first ballot on opposition to the course only came in May,followed by the more recent one. So the time for making a fuss is now,not then.Maybe it should have been then,or maybe not.The point being that we all make a fuss together in conjunction with our union which is what is happening now. However,your dogged insistence that the course is "in" does indeed smack of my "emotive" descriptions of those who support whatever the DES throws at us.

But I really am tired of arguing with you. I see your attitude as a betrayal of the majority of union members who oppose this course and who are now embarking on strike action as a result.

Why don't you just come clean and admit that you support this course?

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

Now that state certification is reinstated and that 60% of the JC will be externally assessed, I'm going to put my head above the parapet here and ask: what's so bad about 40% of the students' results being continuous assessment?

If next we were to be told that in future, the month of June must be spent on CPD and /or marking /monitoring assessments [all for free of course], would you ask what's so bad about that?

Or,if next there's a HR2 and say,CP hours are upped from 33 to 50, for example,would you ask what's so bad about that too?

And if during one of the future CP or HR agreements they decide to no longer pay degree /dip allowances,just as during the current CP/HR they scrapped the masters /doctorate allowance and slashed our sick pay by half,would you still be saying what's so bad about that?

Some teachers need to wake up and realise that this is yet another attack in a long series of attacks on teachers and education. And the goal of these attacks is to SAVE MONEY. And these are savings that nobody benefits from as we all know where the money is going!

But,will you keep saying,"What's so bad about that!"

man_no_plan

The idea of the JCSA is not a bad one imo. Who could argue with different teaching, learning and assessment modes?

Our problems as a profession are many but include a lack of interest from the majority of teachers in IR issues, a lack of engagement with their unions, a lack of a long term view on where this may go and a lack of strong union leadership over the past few years.

I know in my heart that if I asked in my staffroom what the strike was about id get blank faces and mumbling about standards blah blah but no understanding of the issues.

I have been thinking about this over the past few days and really reflecting on what the issues are and how we can address them. And more so how we can articulate them.

I think a more positive use of this thread would be to look at how we can improve the teaching and learning experience without becoming slaves to paperwork and pushy parents rather than bickering.

This should be about what we believe in.

I believe that every teacher wants the best for their students, if i didn't it would be hard to stay in the job. I believe that 100% written exams don't do justice to all children and don't recognise other worthwhile skills they may have.

I believe that improved teaching and learning does not need to mean teachers working more and more and more.

So if I believe this how can we get beyond the hump we are stuck at? I'm not sure if any of you heard Gerry Quinn on the RTE on Saturday with the minister. He says that the 40% teacher assessment is the only roadblock and that its a Trojan horse.

The minister says you need teacher assessment to be sure you don't miss out on the valuable skills you can't test in the exam.

Gerry tells us 14 subjects have project work at JC already so we are up for 40% across the board - changing the teaching, changing the learning - but we wont mark it.

I agree but I think we are missing a major point here. Wanting Assessment for certification by the SEC doesn't mean that we are against assessment of our students, it means we are against assessing them for certification.

I am a teacher of MTW and Construction, TG and DCG. All of these subjects barring TG have a project component. They are all externally assessed at present.

Does this mean I don't assess my students? Does it mean I don't want to judge them? No

It means that I don't decide their final grade and that's the kernel of it for me. I assess them all year, I give feedback, I give out, I guide, nurture whatever fancy language you like. I assess them!! Over and over to help them improve. But I don't decide on what they get in their JC /LC exam.

I mark my students projects for Construction studies, colleagues mark them for Ag Science. I don't have a problem with this. Why? Because at the end if the day a moderator comes and decides if the marks are right.

So the fact is that we already assess, we are already up to our necks in formative and summative assessment.

But we don't assess for certification. And we shouldn't.

So we need to be saying that we will assess our own, and we always will. We will assess them to help them learn, to find out where they need support. But the SEC has to carry the responsibility for the final marks and moderating 15% of grades doesn't cut it for me.

So maybe I'm repeating myself here but we are sending the message that we dint want to work when we're already working, that we don't want to improve things when we all know that the best things in each of our schools have come from within.

We should be proud of ourselves and what we believe in. We shouldn't be embarrassed to take a stand or to say yes minister I will assess my own students, but not for you or the sec, but for them to help them along the way.

I would encourage you to listen to the radio piece in mentioned earlier Saturday with Brian Dowling I think. Maybe link it in an email and send it to your colleagues or share it on Facebook.if people won't look for the facts you have to bring them too them.

I was ready to capitulate on this here during the week but I'm fired up for it now. If we give an inch they'll take a mile.

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

I really am beginning to wonder what language I've been posting in or perhaps what planet some posters are living on! :rolleyes:

Are certain posters not aware that there has been widespread opposition to the JCSA,not least by the very unions we love to lambaste?

Are certain posters not aware that the unions appealed to the DES to postpone the introduction of the JCSA to allow time to reach a more workable and mutually acceptable solution?

Are certain posters not aware that the DES has persistently refused that reasonable request, despite the retiring of the architect of the JCSA?

Are certain posters not aware that last May [or perhaps April?] the unions passed a vote of non compliance with the JCSA as a result of DES intransigence?

And finally,are certain posters not aware that unions passed another recent vote to ratchet up the industrial action,again as a result of DES intransigence?

Now,yes there are some grey areas in the above questions.Another poster has already posted the exact union directive,which technically does not ban members from teaching the new course. However,in the light of what I have just clarified above,how can anyone claim that there is a new course up and running when there patently is not?

If we must split hairs on this, we are talking about first year English .Period. The actual practice of the JCSA doesn't really kick in until second year English.So it's not as though we are revolutionising the wheel by carrying on as before. There isn't really a first year English course,to speak of,it's mainly an introduction to what they will later study in depth.And some vitally important work on overall literacy.

It is also not as if a particular group of teachers decided to get all bolshy. Even if I,personally,were not very opposed to the JCSA,you can't teach a new course without the proper infrastructure and proper training. The in services we were receiving were a joke,at best, and there is zero infrastructure or forward planning in place for the new course. So,like sensible people, the |English teachers in my school,and to my knowledge,around my town and county [source:branch meeting] decided to continue as normal,while awaiting a solution.

In my opinion,any teacher,who despite all that,is actually following this new course either out of fear of breach of contract,or total disregard for majority concerns,should hang his/her head in shame.

While HR concerned teachers working conditions for the foreseeable future,this concerns the future of Irish education,the education of our children and grandchildren. It has enormous consequences for our society and goes much further than the kids sitting junior English in 2017.

Might I suggest you pen a letter to Irish indo or times? I have published quite a few. You might even guess who I am . We need a bigger audience. Will you consider it? I have contact details for Education editors both. Its time consuming. I have had about ten published plus three articles. I need backup.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Might I suggest you pen a letter to Irish indo or times? I have published quite a few. You might even guess who I am . We need a bigger audience. Will you consider it? I have contact details for Education editors both. Its time consuming. I have had about ten published plus three articles. I need backup.

Yes I certainly would be interested in writing to the papers if I thought they'd publish it. I completely agree that we do do need a wider audience and I'm prepared to do anything I can. Will you pm me the details when you get a chance,please. Thanks a lot.

MrJones1973

I thought somebody might pick up on my line "You might guess who I am". You know my name say my name its Mr xxxxx xxxxx. Im mr White pseudonym (breaking Bad) Come on people its a clear reference!!

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I thought somebody might pick up on my line "You might guess who I am". You know my name say my name its Mr xxxxx xxxxx. Im mr White pseudonym (breaking Bad) Come on people its a clear reference!!

ustazjoseph

endakenny wrote: »

The parents' representatives on the board of management won't be able to bring about the sacking of the principal just because the principal is being professional.

Teachers are already subject to pressure from parents with regard to the disciplining of pupils. The principal and deputy principal of my alma mater said that disrespect towards teachers would not be tolerated.

My alma mater is a voluntary secondary school (VSS). VSSs are under patronage of either the Catholic or Anglican church and the work ethic that priests, monks and nuns instilled when they ran these schools means that their discipline is quite good.

It is possible that the State-run schools' discipline is not as good, as the
following case shows.

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/union-dumps-teachers-after-row-over-press-release-claims-25889959.html

This is hardly evidence based ?

Quoted member has withdrawn from this discussion.

MOD

Corkgirl18

Just wondering what student teachers are supposed to do in this strike action? We aren't in any unions obviously. I'm currently doing the PDE. My principal is out with the last few weeks and the other teachers in the school are being fairly vague about whether we come in to school or not. . My tutors don't really have a clue either.
I just want to do the right thing. Any idea what that is?

deiseindublin

Talks broke down today

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/joint-astitui-statement-second-level-teacher-unions-attend-junior-cycle-talks-with-minister//back_to/latest-news/

Pwpane

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Just wondering what student teachers are supposed to do in this strike action? We aren't in any unions obviously. I'm currently doing the PDE. My principal is out with the last few weeks and the other teachers in the school are being fairly vague about whether we come in to school or not. . My tutors don't really have a clue either.
I just want to do the right thing. Any idea what that is?

Why aren't you in a union - it's free? And the right thing to do is not to pass s picket.

evolving_doors

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Just wondering what student teachers are supposed to do in this strike action? We aren't in any unions obviously. I'm currently doing the PDE. My principal is out with the last few weeks and the other teachers in the school are being fairly vague about whether we come in to school or not. . My tutors don't really have a clue either.
I just want to do the right thing. Any idea what that is?

The notice sent to the union reps went something like this... if a non member approaches you and asks what they should do they should be referred on to management of the school.

Basically ask the Principal/Vice Principal ... they might be in the union also, if they are, they should not be working in the school that day themselves (as they would be crossing the picket).

If they are not in the union then they may ask you to make yourself available for work that day .. but I can;t see why they would drag you into an empty school to do 'paperwork' ... other than just to annoy folk on the picket.

Of course there's nothing stopping you joining the union (if it's free for students then give them a ring). If there's a union meeting before the strike day you might be proposed in in time.

And... if the Principal tells you to do whatever you like on the day then there's nothing stopping you from joining the picket either in solidarity... although the other teachers wouldn't hold it against you if you don't show up.

phish

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Just wondering what student teachers are supposed to do in this strike action? We aren't in any unions obviously. I'm currently doing the PDE. My principal is out with the last few weeks and the other teachers in the school are being fairly vague about whether we come in to school or not. . My tutors don't really have a clue either.
I just want to do the right thing. Any idea what that is?

Also on teaching practice myself. Got an email from college telling us to tell our principals that we have been told to stay at home for the day.

happywithlife

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Just wondering what student teachers are supposed to do in this strike action? We aren't in any unions obviously. I'm currently doing the PDE. My principal is out with the last few weeks and the other teachers in the school are being fairly vague about whether we come in to school or not. . My tutors don't really have a clue either.
I just want to do the right thing. Any idea what that is?

I was on block placement during the rolling ASTI strikes in 2001 (I think I have the year right) and we were told by college to stay at home. I'd push your college for clarification.

Xcellor

I don't understand this dispute.

Make the examination papers anonymous so that the teacher doesn't know who they are marking.

And..

Get teachers to mark other students that they don't teach.

Striking seems a bit over the top imo.

mirrorwall14

Xcellor wrote: »

I don't understand this dispute.

Make the examination papers anonymous so that the teacher doesn't know who they are marking.

And..

Get teachers to mark other students that they don't teach.

Striking seems a bit over the top imo.

Its far more than just the 40%. You are oversimplifying

What will that 40% consist of? Is it projects? Practical exams? How will all of that be scheduled by the individual teacher? None of that has been decided. Do you expect teachers to sign students up to continuous assessment when we don't even know what it will be?

How exactly do you make continuous assessment that the teacher has monitored anonymous? What if I have no 3rd year students? Am I to be expected to mark students? What if I have four 3rd year groups? Do I have to mark 120 assessments (which could be made up of multiple assessments). Are you suggesting swapping between schools? How do you ensure no tampering? Schools won't necessarily have the same number of students so one could end up with way more to correct than another?

And since it is by no means an easy feat (and may not be possible) to create anonymity in the system without it being externally managed you are back to the age old problem in Ireland. We are an extremely parochial country. Cronyism is rife across all sectors of society. We have a massive level of part time teachers in Second level, how are they going to stand up to principals/parents/students demanding better grades?

As a music teacher, the chances are that my students will never be assessed by anyone but me for performance until their LC exam where it is worth 50%??! Thats insane and not productive for students.

The proposed exams are common level. How is this going to translate to LC? Lets say a weak student managed 40% in their continuous assessment by dint of grinds, parental help and the internet (lets say it was project based) in a common level course and got a C in their JC common Science exam as a result. How do you explain to that student and their parents that they are not able for a HL Physics exam at LC?

Xcellor

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Its far more than just the 40%. You are oversimplifying

Oversimplifying probably but striking is over-exaggerating.

It doesn't appear at least to the lay person that enough dialog has occurred.

If teachers wanted to bring parents with them and the wider public, striking is not the solution.

Pwpane

Xcellor wrote: »

Oversimplifying probably but striking is over-exaggerating.

It doesn't appear at least to the lay person that enough dialog has occurred.

If teachers wanted to bring parents with them and the wider public, striking is not the solution.

It doesn't seem as if you know anything about it.

Why do you think striking is over the top? What else would you suggest that hasn't already occurred?

Xcellor

Pwpane wrote: »

It doesn't seem as if you know anything about it.

Why do you think striking is over the top? What else would you suggest that hasn't already occurred?

Mod Warning

While you are welcome to contribute to the thread, your posts are quite flaming.
Teachers are well aware of the lack of public support from some.
As you have said in a previous post, you don't understand the dispute, please read the circular.
You are entitled to disagree with the strike but please discuss/offer alternatives etc...

trebormurf

That works both ways buddy, ask 10 people do they understand the new proposals for the JCSA & the number who understand would be low.

And when do the public support teachers anyway, strike or no strike?!

killbillvol2

trebormurf wrote: »

That works both ways buddy, ask 10 people do they understand the new proposals for the JCSA & the number who understand would be low.

And when do the public support teachers anyway, strike or no strike?!

This sums it up. There's no point in pandering to public opinion.

killbillvol2

Xcellor wrote: »

Ask 10 people on the street whether they support teachers striking. I'd expect the amount of support to be rather low.

Ask another 10 people after you strike. I'd expect the amount to be even lower.

FYP.

mirrorwall14

Talks have been going since September which is pretty long considering the last industrial action (lunchtime strike) was in the previous school year and industrial action up to strike action has been on the cards for quite a while. It's not teachers fault there was a cabinet reshuffle so nothing could be done over the summer.

[Deleted User]

Very rare you'll find me on the side of the teachers but even aside from the extra workload the inevitable increase in CA is just inviting more stress on teachers. I know the vast majority won't play favorites (+/- a few percent, it's impossible to be completely impartial with people you see most days) but the hassle from parents and interference from outside that will be encouraged would be what I'd be worried about.

mirrorwall14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Very rare you'll find me on the side of the teachers but even aside from the extra workload the inevitable increase in CA is just inviting more stress on teachers. I know the vast majority won't play favorites (+/- a few percent, it's impossible to be completely impartial with people you see most days) but the hassle from parents and interference from outside that will be encouraged would be what I'd be worried about.

The other thing that you won't find the education department acknowledging if that continuous assessment can actually really stress students out. At the moment ask any JC or LC student how they are coming up to practicals/orals/portfolio time and they will tell you they are stressed to the 9's. While it's nice to spread the grade, for some students it is a nightmare scenario.

evolving_doors

killbillvol2 wrote: »

This sums it up. There's no point in pandering to public opinion.

I think the real battle is over the opinions of fellow teachers.

Forget about pandering to public opinion.

That was proven not to have worked the last time with the 'lunchtime protest charade'.

[Deleted User]

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The other thing that you won't find the education department acknowledging if that continuous assessment can actually really stress students out. At the moment ask any JC or LC student how they are coming up to practicals/orals/portfolio time and they will tell you they are stressed to the 9's. While it's nice to spread the grade, for some students it is a nightmare scenario.

This is something I have to admit I didn't see teachers acknowledge when I was in school til about 7 years ago. The "teacher-line" seemed to be that CA was more fair rather than one big exam. My experience was that the people who panicked about the exams panicked about every little bit of CA. Telling a kid that 1st or 2nd year that they could lose any chance of an A because of one little project doesn't seem great to me.

mirrorwall14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is something I have to admit I didn't see teachers acknowledge when I was in school til about 7 years ago. The "teacher-line" seemed to be that CA was more fair rather than one big exam. My experience was that the people who panicked about the exams panicked about every little bit of CA. Telling a kid that 1st or 2nd year that they could lose any chance of an A because of one little project doesn't seem great to me.

Its actually a general perception the population. I may perhaps be more aware of it as I had a sibling suffer. I will say however that at the top of the class I will set deadlines and enforce them because you can't afford to let other kids away without preparing them. (There will always be chancers!). I'm happy to work with any child who is very stressed on their own individual goals/worries though outside of that.

rainbowtrout

Xcellor wrote: »

I don't understand this dispute.

Make the examination papers anonymous so that the teacher doesn't know who they are marking.

And..

Get teachers to mark other students that they don't teach.

Striking seems a bit over the top imo.

You should go and inform yourself on it then.

As for anonymity - I can identify a student 50 feet down the corridor from the back of their head.

Not to mind identifying them from their handwriting from the work I have corrected over three years.

For plenty of subjects there is only one teacher in the school - e.g. Art, Music, Woodwork, Tech Graphics, Metalwork, German, Business, Home Economics etc etc .. depending on the size of the school. So they wouldn't have an option to get someone else to mark the work.

Aside from that, but why should other teachers have to take on a workload correcting work for students they don't teach? I don't have third years this year, I didn't have any last year, and I won't have any for two more years. Why would I have to correct third year work when I have my own workload to contend with for the year groups I do teach?

acequion

Do people ever wonder where all this antipathy /hostility towards teachers came from? Because it is totally and completely unjustified. Ok,decades back you had some very lazy and some very useless teachers,who nowadays wouldn't last five minutes. But back then you had the brilliant ones too and overall the majority were good to very good. I'm teaching long enough to remember when teaching was a highly respected profession and teachers, as individuals, were treated with courtesy and respect.

So,what happened? Did teachers en masse create some enormous fcuk up? Not a bit of it. Was there some big scandal somewhere linking teachers to some sort of corruption, a la politicians of Ireland? Not a bit of that either. So,what went wrong? Quite simply,folks,at some point it became the "in" thing to hate teachers and teacher bashing, along the lines of priest bashing and politician bashing, became a national sport. Brought in no doubt by the all powerful media. All of a sudden,it was fine to express the ugliest of jealousy over the holidays and other advantages as if we'd only just acquired these things.As if teachers of the past didn't have those so called perks as well.

I have also worked in the private service and in other countries and I've never seen a harder working,more committed group of professionals than today's teachers. So,the bashing is nothing less than revolting and that's why I couldn't care less about the public,or at least those elements in the public who treat us so shabbily.

We've got to fight for our rights and let them think what they want. They will anyway.