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A minimum defence capability ? Whats needed ?

cruasder777

The interception of Russian bombers by NATO air forces over the north sea and reports of Russian bombers north off Donegal makes it even more clear that the republic lacks a minimal air defence capability as a deterrent, nor does it have a capability to escort passenger planes if hijacked etc.

During the cold war Shannon airport would have been taken out by Russian nukes due to its strategic value to NATO, realised papers show Ireland had a secret pact to allow NATO to use Shannon in war with the USSR. Its highly possible we are entering another cold war.

What minimum air capability does the republic need ?

IMO, it needs a squadron of ex USSAF F16s, cost 15 million dollars each, all capable of dealing with hostile Russian bomber air threats.

It also needs to link up with NATOs early warning radar systems to warn of Russian bombers flying towards Irish airspace and work with the UKs developing antiballistic missile defence system. At present the state is neglecting its duty.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/nuclear-war-the-hidden-threat-to-northern-ireland-28497656.html

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Boskowski

We need that as much as I need a wart on my eyeball. Would be just another black hole in the states finances. It costs much much more to run an F16 than it costs to buy one.

mrsoundie

Short answer, it costs more than we are willing to spend.

After that, the decision is, do you let them in, then try and wipe them out or keep at arms length and never let them in? Either choice is expensive, but that's the simple answer, which only opens up more questions as to systems and interoperability?

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

We need that as much as I need a wart on my eyeball. Would be just another black hole in the states finances. It costs much much more to run an F16 than it costs to buy one.

Used F16s are 1970s technology affordable to buy and maintain and deal with Russian bombers.

Recently the RAF intercepted Russian bombers 20 miles off Donegal.

The Irish state should take responsibility for its own defence.

Boskowski

Why? Were they about to attack Ireland? As far as I'm concerned they can fly around Donegal all day long. Doesn't bother me.

hfallada

OP how far are we from Russia? If Russia is going to invade Ireland. We will know several hours in advance and I imagine the UK might take them down if they enter NI airspace. Russia doesnt want to go to war with the EU. If it does,its finished. If Europe stops buying its Gas and Oil. It will pretty much be broke over night. Even Iran is caving in with the trade embargo the west has put on it.

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

Why? Were they about to attack Ireland? As far as I'm concerned they can fly around Donegal all day long. Doesn't bother me.

You are not bothered by a foreign powers nuclear bombers illegally entering Irish air space ?

cruasder777

hfallada wrote: »

OP how far are we from Russia? If Russia is going to invade Ireland. We will know several hours in advance and I imagine the UK might take them down if they enter NI airspace. Russia doesnt want to go to war with the EU. If it does,its finished. If Europe stops buying its Gas and Oil. It will pretty much be broke over night. Even Iran is caving in with the trade embargo the west has put on it.

Where did anyone mention Russia invading Ireland ?

LeinsterDub

Are we talking on 1 bomber, 1 squadron, 1 airwing or perhaps the entire Russian airforce.

What good is a few F16s when Russia or whoever have so many more.

That is of course ignoring Russia's ICBMs

Boskowski

cruasder777 wrote: »

You are not bothered by a foreign powers nuclear bombers illegally entering Irish air space ?

Not a lot no. And who says they were carrying nuclear anyway? You don't take nukes out for a Sunday spin I dare say.

cruasder777

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Are we talking on 1 bomber, 1 squadron, 1 airwing or perhaps the entire Russian airforce.

What good is a few F16s when Russia or whoever have so many more.

That is of course ignoring Russia's ICBMs

Jesus wept, Im not talking about Ireland countering Russian fighters, Im talking about it having the capability to intercept bombers and defend its airspace, which is the threat.

Captain Chaos

Engine maintenance for a year alone would cost more than 6 second hand F-16s. Plus training to keeps pilots up to date plus weapons costs and training to use them. It's half a million for an AMRAAM missile and they have limited flight hours after which they have to be re conditioned. All money, money money.

We are not a target for anyone why would Russia nuke us? If there bombers were armed they don't carry gravity nuclear dumb bombs but nuclear tipped cruise missiles that are launched 100s of miles from their targets. They could fire from beyond Scotland and hit us if they wanted to.

Sure look at the UK, they reckon they can only afford to buy and operate 48 F-35Bs for the RAF and RN and look at their economy. They can't even buy all the Typhoons they signed up for.

Oafley Jones

cruasder777 wrote: »

Used F16s are 1970s technology affordable to buy and maintain and deal with Russian bombers.

Recently the RAF intercepted Russian bombers 20 miles off Donegal.

The Irish state should take responsibility for its own defence.

What do you think the cost is of operating an f16 squadron... I'm genuinely curious as to how you define affordable.

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

Not a lot no. And who says they were carrying nuclear anyway? You don't take nukes out for a Sunday spin I dare say.

They are nuclear bombers, heading into Irish airspace, its a hostile act.

The state has a duty to counter it.

hfallada

cruasder777 wrote: »

Where did anyone mention Russia invading Ireland ?

OP is banging on about the Russians

syklops

hfallada wrote: »

OP is banging on about the Russians

He is the OP.

Boskowski

cruasder777 wrote: »

They are nuclear bombers, heading into Irish airspace, its a hostile act.

The state has a duty to counter it.

No it doesn't cos it's not actually a threat. It would be a threat if it was endangering civilian airspace. Or if they were shattering windows in coastal towns even. But beyond that I fail to see a threat.
Even if they ever did any of the above - which I doubt - there are diplomatic options available that won't cost us a billion a year.

Be rational. Imagine the ****storm if we upped our income tax by 10% or cut the dole by €50 so that we can run a squadron of F16s. Never gonna happen and thank god for that.

cruasder777

Oafley Jones wrote: »

What do you think the cost is of operating an f16 squadron... I'm genuinely curious as to how you define affordable.

They are 15 million dollars each to buy, single seaters have much lower costs then twin, about 50 thousand dollars an hour in the air. That includes being maintained, ground crew and training.

Buy cost equals 180 million. 500 hours per year for each plane in the air costs 25 million dollars.

That's 300 million dollars per year/

I have most likely over estimated flying hours.

How to pay for it ?

Increase defence spending and.....

Have three main barracks for the army with training areas, close the outdated expensive to maintain barracks in towns, have centralised recruit training. Get rid of the armys outdated roles in guarding prisons and security vans, give it to the private sector. Bring numbers down to 5,500, expand the reserve, make it more like the TA.

It can be done.

Problem is the republic military ethos is deeply conservative, still thinking strategically in the 1920s and its war with the IRA. That's the only role its geared up for, its strategically totally outdated. As such conflicts are today intelligence driven.

The republics military leaderships vision is abysmal, it cant see beyond the north and the UN. Its the most conservative military in the western world with a population whos world view is head in the sand/not our concern.

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

No it doesn't cos it's not actually a threat. It would be a threat if it was endangering civilian airspace. Or if they were shattering windows in coastal towns even. But beyond that I fail to see a threat.
Even if they ever did any of the above - which I doubt - there are diplomatic options available that won't cost us a billion a year.

A foreign nuclear bomber heading at supersonic speed into another countries airspace is not a potential threat ? ok

A billion per year ? Don't know what you are on about.

Boskowski

cruasder777 wrote: »

A foreign nuclear bomber heading at supersonic speed into another countries airspace is not a potential threat ? ok

A billion per year ? Don't know what you are on about.

Firstly you repeating the word nuclear doesn't actually make them nuclear. And yes while I can see how some may define this as a threat I fail to see the actual threat that would justify such an expense. Ireland is neutral. So if you wanna deal with Russua on your own good luck with that. Otherwise you'd have to join NATO and I don't think that's an option for a lot of reasons.
We just don't have the money to be any kind of geo strategic player. And yes as scary as that may seem that means if push came to shove we couldn't defend ourselves against Denmark.

And yes a billion. Or maybe half a billion. Maybe more than one. I don't really have a clue but I'm sure it would be absolutely massive. You know how things work.

coolemon

cruasder777 wrote: »

You are not bothered by a foreign powers nuclear bombers illegally entering Irish air space ?

Perhaps if Ireland took a more neutral geo-political position it would not be seen as a threat by Russia. That is, get the US warplanes out of Shannon and illegal rendition flights and all the rest.

Besides, the Russians no doubt have sophisticated stealth missiles which are not detectable. Indeed they have nuclear submarines which could strike Shannon airport before the useless F-16's could get off the ground, or the F-16s would be wiped out while on the tarmac.

And what are F-16s going to do about a submarine? Nothing.

There are people sleeping rough in Dublin tonight in the pouring rain. The state can fund that if it cares about protecting its people.

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

Firstly you repeating the word nuclear doesn't actually make them nuclear. And yes while I can see how some may define this as a threat I fail to see the actual threat that would justify such an expense. Ireland is neutral. So if you wanna deal with Russua on your own good luck with that. Otherwise you'd have to join NATO and I don't think that's an option for a lot of reasons.
We just don't have the money to be any kind of geo strategic player. And yes as scary as that may seem that means if push came to shove we couldn't defend ourselves against Denmark.

They are nuclear bombers, your logic is flawed.

If a guy robs a banks with a gun, cops don't turn up and say, well maybe its not loaded.

The problem is Ireland is full of left wing, hippy CND types who don't like to deal with reality, leave it to someone else.

cruasder777

coolemon wrote: »

Perhaps if Ireland took a more neutral geo-political position it would not be seen as a threat by Russia. That is, get the US warplanes out of Shannon and illegal rendition flights and all the rest.

Besides, the Russians no doubt have sophisticated stealth missiles which are not detectable. Indeed they have nuclear submarines which could strike Shannon airport before the useless F-16's could get off the ground, or the F-16s would be wiped out while on the tarmac.

And what are F-16s going to do about a submarine? Nothing.

There are people sleeping rough in Dublin tonight in the pouring rain. The state can fund that if it cares about protecting its people.

Hence WHY I stated the Republic should be under the UKs developing anti ballistic missile defence system. Even eventually have a land based one, based in Ireland.

Shannon and the north are targets.

The state is neglecting its duty.

I don't understand what homeless people have to do with this ?

This is the classic hippy/commie logic in Ireland.

Boskowski

I take the neutral lefty stance any day over some insane spend on a crazy notion we need to turn ourselves into some kind of strategic player.
But leave political convictions aside. Be rational. It just wouldn't work. And for what anyway? It's just not worth it. All we'd do is make ourselves a target. It's like the guy who gets mugged and pulls a knife. All it does is increase your chance of gettin killed. No thank you.

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

I take the neutral lefty stance any day over some insane spend on a crazy notion we need to turn ourselves into some kind of strategic player.
But leave political convictions aside. Be rational. It just wouldn't work. And for what anyway? It's just not worth it. All we'd do is make ourselves a target. It's like the guy who gets mugged and pulls a knife. All it does is increase your chance of gettin killed. No thank you.

But Shannon and the north are strategic targets, the ability to Police your own airspace does not make you a strategic player.

there is something seriously wrong when Luxemburg and Malta have a better air defence capability then Ireland.

Its the same logic that says Islamic extremism and terrorism is nothing to do with us.

Boskowski

cruasder777 wrote: »

Its the same logic that says Islamic extremism and terrorism is nothing to do with us.

And in fact it's nothing to do with us. It's to do with those who destabilise and feck up entire (Islamic) regions pursuing their strategic and economic interests. We're not one of those.

cruasder777

Boskowski wrote: »

And in fact it's nothing to do with us. It's to do with those who destabilise and feck up entire (Islamic) regions pursuing their strategic and economic interests. We're not one of those.

You don't seem to understand that demographics mean Europe will become Islamic with present trends, watch and learn. That includes Ireland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

Larbre34

cruasder777 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand that demographics mean Europe will become Islamic with present trends, watch and learn. That includes Ireland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

Never heard such cr@p.

Even if the non-Muslim population of Europe stopped expanding tomorrow and merely replaced itself, it would take until the beginning of the 23rd century for a Muslim majority in Europe. And given that Europe is rushing headlong towards ultimate secularisation which is hostile towards Islam exerting itself, it's just not a scenario that's feasible.

cruasder777

Larbre34 wrote: »

Never heard such cr@p.

Even if the non-Muslim population of Europe stopped expanding tomorrow and merely replaced itself, it would take until the beginning of the 23rd century for a Muslim majority in Europe. And given that Europe is rushing headlong towards ultimate secularisation which is hostile towards Islam exerting itself, it's just not a scenario that's feasible.

Please stop making stuff up, this is the problem with you over emotional metro-sexual Irish commie-hippie, anti military types, you make stuff up to suit yourselves, reality is too hard.

El_Duderino 09

cruasder777 wrote: »

Please stop making stuff up, this is the problem with you over emotional metro-sexual Irish commie-hippie, anti military types, you make stuff up to suit yourselves, reality is too hard.

This seems reasonable.

Anyway I know we face a big enough problem with the over emotional metro sexual Irish commie-hippie anti military types.

But back on topic, why stop at f16s? If we should defend our airspace from ruskies why not assume they would send submarines? Should we also set up sea defences?

Captain Chaos

We need an aircraft carrier too oh and some main battle tanks, ah sure throw in some Apache gunships too and we'll be well sorted so no one will ever dare mess with us.