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The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

The Cush

Announced this morning - http://www.rte.ie/about/en/press-office/press-releases/2014/0923/645685-rte-radio-1-moves-from-longwave-transmission/

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/static/2014/0821/638554-stay-tuned/
http://static.rasset.ie/documents/radio1/rte-radio-1-staytuned.pdf

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watty

Brazil and USA, downwards.
Japan and parts of Europe already use below 88MHz.
Some Radios have had this coverage as well as current band II since 1964

But 175MHz to 195MHz could easily be added with a small €5 adaptor lasting nearly 3 months on 2 x AA cells for existing radio sets. That would double number of stations. 175MHz to 195MHz is ideal for Local radio. Total waste for National DAB.
(Local oscillator 87MHz, single existing off the shelf IC and a crystal)

Hotblack Desiato

Is there a need for more FM stations though, and more importantly is there the advertising and listeners out there to support them? Already far too much 'me too' radio out there, but the commercial viability of niche stations like Phantom has been poor.

winston_1

watty wrote: »

Brazil and USA, downwards.
Japan and parts of Europe already use below 88MHz.
Some Radios have had this coverage as well as current band II since 1964

I cannot find any US stations listed below 88.1. I've found one Brazilian station on 87.9. In both these countries TV channel A6 is immediately below the current FM band.
In the Japan the band has always been 76 to 90MHz and 90 to 108 is used for TV. The FM band is only 14MHz wide instead of the usual 20.
Europe has always gone down to 87.5 MHz, an additional 1/2MHz. Eastern Europe has used an incompatible band around 66 to 74MHz but many countries have discontinued it. Incompatible as the stereo pilot tone is 23KHz instead of 19KHz.

Some far eastern radios indeed have covered 76 to 108MHz, but this is so they can be used in Japan as well as elsewhere, not because the band is being extended.

Antenna

Brazil are planning to extend the FM band down to 76MHz AFTER phasing out analogue TV which has not happened there yet. The USA have put such proposals on hold it seems, as a possible sell off of more UHF TV spectrum could mean low-VHF use being revisited for TV

Already in São Paulo Brazil, one station up to now on AM/MW only is now 'testing' on 84.7 MHz in the planned expanded 76-108 FM band

The regular FM band in China goes down to 87.0 rather than 87.5, and 76-87MHz are special interest 'narrowcast' stations in universities etc

The frequencies can be seen at
http://www.fmlist.org
(click 'continue as guest')

winston_1 wrote: »

I cannot find any US stations listed below 88.1. .

Whilst its generally not used, there are two special cases of low power stations licenced on 87.9, here's one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSFH

There are many US stations on 87.7, but these are using a low-power analogue TV licence to run a FM radio station by the "back-door" in cities with a full FM band, as the audio carrier of their analogue TV channel A6 lies around 87.7. It has not been mandatory for low power analogue TV stations there to go digital, unlike high power TV stations.
http://radioinsight.com/blog/headlines/90444/franken-fms-to-get-temporary-stay-potentially-permanent-one/

Hotblack Desiato

winston_1 wrote: »

In both these countries TV channel A6 is immediately below the current FM band.

Before analogue switch-off, some US A6 'TV stations' were really radio stations intended to be picked up on FM radios. They were regulated as TV stations and had to broadcast some sort of video signal.

It's still permitted, but only at very low power, so not that much use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Channel_6_radio_stations

You beat me to it Antenna

watty

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is there a need for more FM stations though, and more importantly is there the advertising and listeners out there to support them? Already far too much 'me too' radio out there, but the commercial viability of niche stations like Phantom has been poor.

More stations is the ONLY remaining selling point of DAB (or any other Digital Radio scheme) once the lies and mis-information is removed.

Yes I agree we have too many Cable & Satellite channels and enough FM stations. Very Niche stations do work more economically as MP3 Playlists and as Internet Streaming.

The point is that radios exist since 1964 (I have a 1965 radio that does 64 MHz to 200MHz to allow Eastern Europe, Japan, USA, Europe and TV sound) that already work for extended FM bands. Some of these are still available under €25 and give better sound quality than the FM on any portable or Table FM + DAB radio (the DAB is lower quality as it's only 128K or less, DAB+ won't help as at high bit rates no better than DAB, the reason for DAB+ is to do 64K and 96K, pack more stations in at same poor quality of current UK & Ireland DAB.
MP3, DAB, DAB+, DRM+ etc all need to be 256K or more to give same as FM quality. The trend for Music Downloads is higher bitrates and even lossless FLAC etc, not the garbage quality of RTE Digital on DAB.

watty

Also relevant points here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056933658

watty

winston_1 wrote: »

Eastern Europe has used an incompatible band around 66 to 74MHz but many countries have discontinued it. Incompatible as the stereo pilot tone is 23KHz instead of 19KHz.

Some far eastern radios indeed have covered 76 to 108MHz, but this is so they can be used in Japan as well as elsewhere.

Actually quite a few do 64MHz to 110MHz, and more.

The pilot tone etc is irrelevant. The actual frequencies are irrelevant.

The Only significant use 48MHz to 87.5MHz is 50 to 52MHz and 70MHz allocation Amateur (Commercial Two way radio is nearly dead due to Mobiles). So an extra 20MHz with 3 MHz gap for Amateur 68 to 71MHz on 64 MHz to 87MHz would double capacity (Europe Wide). This band is suited for national stations as coverage is extended.
Similarly only totally pointless DAB (2MHz at present!) in Band III, above 200MHz. Again allocation Europe wide 175MHz to 195MHz would be ideal for local stations.

The sole reason this was NOT done after end of Analogue TV in Europe was Digital Dogmatism. DRM+ was even proposed for Band I (44MHz to 65MHz).
Scrap the entire idea of Digital Broadcast radio (except as add on channels on DVB-T / DTT on UHF for National Stations) and extend FM if we REALLY need more stations.

The national Talk stations should SIMULCAST on AM to give true 100% National coverage (2 on MW, each 2 x TX to reduce power, we have I think four TX allocations) and one on LW to cover NI and UK.

MW: 1 x non-RTE National, 1 x R na G. (VHF coverage is poor just where needed!)
LW: RTE1

Also less music on RTE1, news start earlier and STOP having late starts on Holidays!
Consider RTE (extended FM) having a daytime pop/night time Sport with some of current RTE1 & 2FM content. In Interim it could use RTE1 VHF and RTE1 VHF move to MW till a commercial station takes channel.
Revamp 2FM making overnight, evening and daytime for 3 different audiences.
Scrap rest of RTE DAB stations putting the content worth keeping on the three stations.

RTE's Digital is failed strategy lacking in vision.
RTE ditching MW was shortsighted and Stupid. Ending LW is moronic.

RTE has too many managers (over paid) and over paid Celeb presenters. Should be 70K cap on presenters (generous) and on all but most senior staff. Plus any allowance Dublin accommodation vs rent/house prices for Lyric FM staff (Limerick).

Longwave Listener

Really far too many daft red herrings being thrown into this debate all over the internet. Some people are going on as if RTE Radio 1 is still the Raidió Eireann of the Lemass era.

[Deleted User]

realistic anorak wrote: »

They may have withdrawn their plans to close lw.., They no longer cut into the Angelus saying this service will close down on blah blah blah

Seems to be back now, just heard the midnight announcement.

SPDUB

Karsini wrote: »

Seems to be back now, just heard the midnight announcement.

Last time I heard it which was 6 days ago approx they were still doing it at 3am

realistic anorak

Does the lobby group in the clarkstown area who wanted the mast taken down still exist ? I believe they won their case in the high court but it was overturned the the supreme court .

[Deleted User]

watty wrote: »

RTE ditching MW was shortsighted and Stupid. Ending LW is moronic.

Was it not wasteful to have Radio 1 on both MW and LW?

I'd have to wonder why exactly 252 was taken over in the first place? Yes, RTE owned the site, but was the coverage area of 252 much better than 567? Take into account that 252 is drowned out by Algeria in many parts whereas 567 was (and is) a relatively clear channel.

winston_1

Karsini wrote: »

Was it not wasteful to have Radio 1 on both MW and LW?

Radio 1 was never on LW. Before Radio 1 the Light Programme was on LW with MW fillers in areas of poor reception, rather like the situation of Radio 4 today.

Edit, just caught on you are probably talking about Radio 1 Ireland.

So silly for so many countries to call their stations by numbers.

ardmacha

winston_1 wrote: »

Edit, just caught on you are probably talking about Radio 1 Ireland.

So silly for so many countries to call their stations by numbers.

It isn't really. In a thread about RTÉ is it fairly clear that the term Radio 1 without qualification is referring to RTÉ.

In the roads forum people routinely refer to the N20 or M4 without people talking about roads with similar numbers in other countries.

Oscarziggy

ardmacha wrote: »

It isn't really. In a thread about RTÉ is it fairly clear that the term Radio 1 without qualification is referring to RTÉ.

In the roads forum people routinely refer to the N20 or M4 without people talking about roads with similar numbers in other countries.

Yep I agree --- it was very obvious to me as well.
Regards.

watty

Karsini wrote: »

Was it not wasteful to have Radio 1 on both MW and LW?

I'd have to wonder why exactly 252 was taken over in the first place? Yes, RTE owned the site, but was the coverage area of 252 much better than 567? Take into account that 252 is drowned out by Algeria in many parts whereas 567 was (and is) a relatively clear channel.

Yes maintain the MW Status quo and doing something different or nothing with LW would have been better. Simulcast of MW & LW was mad.

realistic anorak

Heard a closdown message back this evening cutting into The Angelus at 6pm, It said something like further information on how to stay tuned to RTE Radio 1 will resume shortly.

Longwave Listener

I understand RTE will be making an announcement within 3 days

watty

Yes how to "retune", which if you are in a car or portable out of FM range, is impossible.

Idiots. Mobile Internet, broadband, DTT, stupid pointless DAB and Satellite are not alternatives.
FM maybe a real 98% coverage (in Republic) and when walking an aerial up is awkward!
Only AM can give full coverage and also sensible coverage to outside Republic.

Closing 252 is only acceptable if they re-open MW. But Athlone is part dismantled. Was that only to stop Spirit Radio renting the site?

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

Yes how to "retune", which if you are in a car or portable out of FM range, is impossible.

Idiots. Mobile Internet, broadband, DTT, stupid pointless DAB and Satellite are not alternatives.
FM maybe a real 98% coverage (in Republic) and when walking an aerial up is awkward!
Only AM can give full coverage and also sensible coverage to outside Republic.

Closing 252 is only acceptable if they re-open MW. But Athlone is part dismantled. Was that only to stop Spirit Radio renting the site?

All the alternatives you list are viable for most people.
Athlone was dismantled partially because the masts need constant maintainence to prevent rusting. Also the site is used for other services.
Irrelevant to this discussion.
Nothing to do with Spirit Radio, why do you think it is.
Tullamore mast is in good condition although the transmitter will never be used again.
AM reception of Radio One on both MW and LW in parts of this country was not good.
Agree, walking up aerials is awkward

watty

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

All the alternatives you list are viable for most people.

That's nothing like good enough for a PSB. They are not TV3. They have an obligation to provide robust broadcast to 100% of population.

The lack of any clear obligation to External Broadcasting is a separate disgraceful issue.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Nothing to do with Spirit Radio, why do you think it is.

Using that location was in their original application.

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

AM reception of Radio One on both MW and LW in parts of this country was not good.

a) Better than nothing. Which is now the alternative.
b) Often interference due to poor "policing" of equipment that can't meet RFI limits. The CE scheme isn't working. That and illegal RFI and uslessness of Comreg to protect spectrum is a separate issue

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Agree, walking up aerials is awkward

I suspect overall we only have a difference of emphasis and agree that Satellite, Internet and cable are complementary to Radio Broadcast?

(Mobile Network can only support about 1% of peak time listeners, for one station and with no other data/voice and has rubbish coverage compared to FM!)

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

That's nothing like good enough for a PSB. They are not TV3. They have an obligation to provide robust broadcast to 100% of population.

The lack of any clear obligation to External Broadcasting is a separate disgraceful issue.

Using that location was in their original application.

a) Better than nothing. Which is now the alternative.
b) Often interference due to poor "policing" of equipment that can't meet RFI limits. The CE scheme isn't working. That and illegal RFI and uslessness of Comreg to protect spectrum is a separate issue

I suspect overall we only have a difference of emphasis and agree that Satellite, Internet and cable are complementary to Radio Broadcast?

(Mobile Network can only support about 1% of peak time listeners, for one station and with no other data/voice and has rubbish coverage compared to FM!)

The reception of RTEs MW and LW in the South was poor due to weak signals, not because of RFI.
The site for Spirit Radio in their application was not RTE Moydrum.

Ross_95

I wonder how much would it cost rte to put radio one on freeview ? That would solve the bad PR about irish pensioners in the uk having no easy access to it imo

watty

Ross_95 wrote: »

I wonder how much would it cost rte to put radio one on freeview ? That would solve the bad PR about irish pensioners in the uk having no easy access to it imo

Expensive. About x60 more expensive than Satellite. Assuming any space.

No it wouldn't. Not very many people use the TV to listen to the Radio. It's not portable or transportable to every room. It's already on Freesat/Sky/FTA effectively in UK.

Now if DTT & Sat boxes came with an iTrip style CE legal type FM Transmitter (about £2 to £10 separately) built in so any VHF-FM radio in the house might be used, there would be very slight merit to this idea. But none do?

watty

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The reception of RTEs MW and LW in the South was poor due to weak signals

Where? What sort of radio sets?
I never had any difficulty with either, in Cork, Limerick, Co. Clare, Co. Louth, Dublin and Mayo. I have had coverage issues on VHF-FM in the Car.
Or indeed with the MW (1970s) or LW (2012) in Co. Antrim.

Of course a car needs a 75cm roof whip aerial for best VHF and assumed for the built in loading coils for MW & LW. The shorter aerials roof aerials and built in windscreen aerials more common in last 10 years are useless for MW/LW and poor for VHF.

Tesco's €14 LW/MW/VHF AM/FM set is mediocre compared to 1965 to 1995 models of Radio, but actually one of the best ordinary AM/FM sets you can buy to today.

The clock Radio sets and cheap "world" sets with digital tuning and presets are garbage. Tesco's World Radio with analogue scale isn't as good on MW/LW as their Kitchen set but beats all of the cheap digital display models.

Crazy but my pocket VR500 100kHz / 1300MHz scanner beats any available current model for MW/LW with the whip replaced by 30cm 1 turn loop. Speaker stupidly small, so "quality" listening needs earphones.
The Sony ICF2001D is very very good. (Gets about 4 UK MW stations during day in Limerick!) but the speaker is a little small. Good luck trying to buy a radio like that today even just for VHF!

Many sets with AM have uselessly small ferrite rod aerials.

Fuzzy Clam

watty wrote: »

Where? What sort of radio sets?
I never had any difficulty with either, in Cork, Limerick, Co. Clare, Co. Louth, Dublin and Mayo. I have had coverage issues on VHF-FM in the Car.
Or indeed with the MW (1970s) or LW (2012) in Co. Antrim.

Of course a car needs a 75cm roof whip aerial for best VHF and assumed for the built in loading coils for MW & LW. The shorter aerials roof aerials and built in windscreen aerials more common in last 10 years are useless for MW/LW and poor for VHF.

Tesco's €14 LW/MW/VHF AM/FM set is mediocre compared to 1965 to 1995 models of Radio, but actually one of the best ordinary AM/FM sets you can buy to today.

The clock Radio sets and cheap "world" sets with digital tuning and presets are garbage. Tesco's World Radio with analogue scale isn't as good on MW/LW as their Kitchen set but beats all of the cheap digital display models.

Crazy but my pocket VR500 100kHz / 1300MHz scanner beats any available current model for MW/LW with the whip replaced by 30cm 1 turn loop. Speaker stupidly small, so "quality" listening needs earphones.
The Sony ICF2001D is very very good. (Gets about 4 UK MW stations during day in Limerick!) but the speaker is a little small. Good luck trying to buy a radio like that today even just for VHF!

Many sets with AM have uselessly small ferrite rod aerials.

Im not sure of exact radios but not cheap ones, im sure.
Friends of mine in radio have mentioned several times over the years of poor reception of RTE in parts of south Cork and Kerry on AM.

dxhound2005

Ireland is not alone in closing down longwave and medium wave. Next up is Germany and Poland, with France rumoured to be on the way out also.

http://swldxbulgaria.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/longwave-closures.html

watty

It's Bean counters rather than people with any sense or PSB commitment making the decisions. It's a soft target for cost savings.

AwaitYourReply

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Ireland is not alone in closing down longwave and medium wave. Next up is Germany and Poland, with France rumoured to be on the way out also.

http://swldxbulgaria.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/longwave-closures.html

This is probably some form of broadcast communications recommendation like the ASO in respect of TV except now it is all about Radio specifically: AM/LW spectrum they want made available for other purposes into the future. More EU interference.

I wish Ireland seriously threatened to exit the EU altogether and instead joined either the European Economic Area (EEA) or European Free Trade Association (EFTA) as the EU no longer serves peripheral states such as Ireland well in so many regards. Whatever the large states want they usually get especially these days. Any influence we once had is all but gone as we learned to our cost when we were forced to bail out the banks to save the EURO even though the debt was an unsustainable burden on the Irish people!

I think we should hang on to RTÉ Radio 1 on LW 252KHz for as long as the audience is listening in to the service on this wavelength. The Irish people at home in Ireland or overseas who still regularly tune in should not be abandoned by RTÉ.