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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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MICKEYG

cgcsb wrote: »

Such a private venture would carry significant risk, especially in the depths of recession, and private investors wouldn't touch it unless there was at least some commitment from the state.

Agreed but recessions never last forever and given the time to completion and the cost benefit analysis the business case looked strong.

cgcsb

MICKEYG wrote: »

Agreed but recessions never last forever and given the time to completion and the cost benefit analysis the business case looked strong.

Alas the foresight of capital markets is often even shorter than the government's planning foresight. 4 years+ waiting for your project to open and an additional X number of years to wait for it to break even is a long long time, especially when there plenty of other quick gain investment opportunities to be had. Projects like this really need to be led by the state/local authority. PPP schemes are a great way to get private investment into schemes that wouldn't be quite as attractive to private money.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

I think you are overlooking the vast differential in capital costs. The state can fund several projects across the country e.g. BXD, BRT, Cycle network and bike schemes in the regional Cities. Although DART Underground will probably deliver as many if not more benefits, it's the speed of delivery and the value of the smaller projects that attracts looser purse strings. DART u is a more long term project, a minimum of 4 years construction and massive capital required. It's just not as politically appealing.

The KPR2 could be funded now and would benefit commuter rail in the greater Dublin area and also intercity services so can be presented as a national project. It is also a necessary enabling works project for DU. I would suggest this would be a better use of €250m than an under capacity BRT line to Swords/airport and would be easier to sell to the national electorate but yet doesnt seem to be on the radar any more.

D.L.R.

A morsel here, courtesy of the Minister for Transport.

Major projects subject to review or report include a decision on which big ticket project – such as Dart Underground, Metro North or even Metro West – should be progressed.

The National Transport Authority will report by early next year and he is agnostic on which project will win. “My commitment is to agreeing on what the project is and then working within government to get the funding to do it,” he says, “but I will be looking to the National Transport Authority to do the technical evaluation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paschal-donohoe-driven-by-planes-trains-and-star-wars-1.1975009

cgcsb

After the first paragraph I had to check if it was the Waterford whisperer

Pete_Cavan

The key, he says, is capital funding for Iarnród Éireann. He “will be engaging with the National Transport Authority and Irish Rail” over coming weeks.

“I am confident we will be able to maintain the same level of service next year that Irish Rail has this year.”

It is talk like this that makes me think that the government have no interest in Irish Rail, they will be kept on basic rations until they have fallen into line or the company gets to the point where they can pull the plug altogether. New agencies have been set up which are not as unionised (yet) and the government prefer to give them the money.

antoinolachtnai

I really think that a higher level rethink is needed than just thinking about capital funding. It takes a lot more than just a capital asset to run a world class public transport service through a tunnel. A lot of smarts are needed too, at all stages.

I think the right thing to do here would be to get in investment from an international player in this area.

FreudianSlippers

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I really think that a higher level rethink is needed than just thinking about capital funding. It takes a lot more than just a capital asset to run a world class public transport service through a tunnel. A lot of smarts are needed too, at all stages.

I think the right thing to do here would be to get in investment from an international player in this area.

Whether one agrees with Irish Water in theory, I think that the government has made a total balls of the project and that type of infrastructure mess only adds to your point regarding transport infrastructure.

ClovenHoof

It is NEVER going to be built. 30 Years overdue. Endless reports.

The DART Interconnector will never happen. Everyone on this thread knows it is their hearts than no Irish Government wants to build it EVER.

JeffK88

All I see from that post is NEVER DART EVER ..Everything else is not needed :pac:

1huge1

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is NEVER going to be built. 30 Years overdue. Endless reports.

The DART Interconnector will never happen. Everyone on this thread knows it is their hearts than no Irish Government wants to build it EVER.

Maybe so, maybe not, but the Luas was built when many said it would never happen, in the depths of a recession the Luas cross city project got the go ahead.

annfield1978

No announcement in the budget on this?, I thought there was a deadline for the government to decide whether to go ahead with purchasing lands tied up with the railway order?

ClovenHoof

annfield1978 wrote: »

No announcement in the budget on this?, I thought there was a deadline for the government to decide whether to go ahead with purchasing lands tied up with the railway order?

Never going to happen. It is a mythology created by Governments and Civil Servants with the purpose of pretending they will invest in public transport.

It's a form of hypnosis. All one has to do is read over this thread people talking about it like it is real. It is not and never will be. A spell that was first cast in 1973 and still continues to this day with a dozens of redrafted plans and reports in between to keep the hypnosis going.

This is Ireland, we don't do proper public transport. We are given glossy brochures.

In 9 years time the DART Underground plan will be a Half Century old. Let that sink in.

Idbatterim

they try to kick things down the road as far as possible, nearly the best thing to happen would be for the gridlock to return as quick as possible that and finances improving, they can only bury their heads in the sand for so long..

Schadenfreudia

ClovenHoof wrote: »

In 9 years time the DART Underground plan will be a Half Century old. Let that sink in.

There is hope for your grandchildren tough!

The Southern Cross was being talked about for about 50 years and it actually opened in 2005 or thereabouts!

strassenwo!f

ClovenHoof wrote: »

In 9 years time the DART Underground plan will be a Half Century old. Let that sink in.

ClovenHoof, in fairness, the DART Underground plan is only about 14 years old.

The original plans for an underground line across the city will be around 50 years old in around a decade. But those were significantly different to the current plan.

strassenwo!f

The LUAS was there, remember.

If you're going to build a big-ticket project across the city, you want to show that you're integrating as many transport modes as possible. And this meant integrating the LUAS, ie building via St. Stephen's Green.

Adding at least 100 million euro to the cost, but integrating with the LUAS.

omicron

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The LUAS was there, remember.

If you're going to build a big-ticket project across the city, you want to show that you're integrating as many transport modes as possible. And this meant integrating the LUAS, ie building via St. Stephen's Green.

Adding at least 100 million euro to the cost, but integrating with the LUAS.

Not very subtle, you have a whole thread for that.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The LUAS was there, remember.

If you're going to build a big-ticket project across the city, you want to show that you're integrating as many transport modes as possible. And this meant integrating the LUAS, ie building via St. Stephen's Green.

Adding at least 100 million euro to the cost, but integrating with the LUAS.

Make it stop make it stop!

strassenwo!f

omicron wrote: »

Not very subtle, you have a whole thread for that.

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

cgcsb

Oh jeepers, give it up.

omicron

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

No.

KCAccidental

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

strassenwo!f

omicron wrote: »

No.

Well, can you suggest a better thread than the one entitled 'DART Underground' for a question about the underlying reasons for the chosen route? It's obviously a question which is going to be asked, once the general public become aware that this project is even on the table.

Aard

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I note that you're getting thanked by all and sundry, but is discussing the reasons for building the interconnector via St. Stephen's Green not more relevant to this thread?

You have been instructed about this in the past, and there is an entire thread dedicated to what you want to discuss. Keep it to that thread please. This will be the last warning on the matter.

This moderation action and message should not be replied to by anybody in-thread.

- Moderator.

strassenwo!f

I can see that a number of people are quite touchy when it comes to explaining why the country should pay for a looping route via St. Stephen's Green.

D Trent

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

BonkeyDonker

D Trent wrote: »

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

Are they really though - sure they may have built it, but its been talked about in various stages since just after WW2!!!!!

Aand look at HS2 - that going to run and run. Ok, HS1 is doing well, but after the billions sunk into the Channel Tunnel it was required spending.

And look at the Heathrow debacle - 20 years for a new terminal, and the third (and fourth) badly needed runways may never be built.

cgcsb

D Trent wrote: »

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

London is a mega city. Look at the rest of the UK for an accurate comparison. The Edinburgh tram fiasco for example.

CrabRevolution

D Trent wrote: »

It's depressing to see just how far ahead of Ireland the UK are
http://www.thejournal.ie/london-tunnel-cross-rail-1814515-Dec2014/

London's Metropolitan Area has 3 times as many people as our entire country. Hardly surprising that crossrail gets built a bit sooner, its not exactly a fair comparison.