Padraig Mor wrote: » Believe it or not, the IMF wanted Ireland to burn bondholders (to the tune of 30 billion IIRC) but the EU, ECB and - get this - IRELAND said no. The IMF insisted, but in the end the Americans put a stop to it.
DamagedTrax wrote: » never knew that. so who were the amercians involved?
Irish Aris wrote: » But surely water is a merit good? Ok, let's pay, but to the extend of covering all costs? That's what taxation is for. They can use the money they will collect from the people and also allocate part of the revenue income for the water infrastructure.
Padraig Mor wrote: » Timothy Geithner, then head of.... eh.... something in the financial side of the US government. Why? Because, despite popular opinion, British and American banks were the main bondholders bailed out (not French and German).
Creative Juices wrote: » Trust me, there is a lot of ridiculous and wasteful public spending that could be cut. The government has failed to tackle that waste but seem intent on sustaining it at our expense. I don't think people mind paying taxes once they know their taxes aren't being wasted.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » The government is in deficit, one of the reasons for IW is to remove the burden of paying for water from revenue. Also general taxation won't encourage water conservation. While meters will.
DamagedTrax wrote: » well then they need to stop all this IW BS and look at the real reason they're in deficit. its not because of me or you. and the country going broke is a better alternative to privatisation of resources. at least then we could start again and try getting it right.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » Not when the infrastructure is decaying and needs capital investment the government can't provide.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » This discussion is moot anyway, IW is here to stay.
Irish Aris wrote: » OK, I get your point. I still think, though, that the general taxation should cover for these services up to a certain point. Citizens can contribute to that, but to ask from your people to cover all costs, to me shows a country/government that doesn't really care about them.
DamagedTrax wrote: » so we start applying socialist ideas that were previously scoffed at. we double the SW payment to people prepared to work hard at rebuilding infrastructure instead of offering and extra few quid for an internship that goes nowhere.
lets not pretend we're the only country with debt. every country is in debt that will never be paid back. why should certain debts be paid back and not others? is it because they can conveniently be put on the citzen while others cannot?
Iwasfrozen wrote: » Why should I trust you? Are you qualified to make statements like that? Do you have access to revenue figures? If it were possible to cut waste a politically savy party like FG would be all over it like a rash. The truth is the majority of waste was cut during the first two austerity budgets. People don't like to hear that though.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » It's not a matter of caring, we have to make the book balance. Caring can come later. I'm sorry I don't follow?
DamagedTrax wrote: » we need the infrastructure repaired. why do we contract out this job instead of training people to do it? the materials alone would cost a fortune, why do we need the extra cost of so many contractors when we could set up proper state agencies to provide the work force at less than the contractors cost? we are the government hading the financial benefits to someone else? i reckon it's because it's easy and they dont want the hassle. sure why would they bother, they're probably in the best paid politician in the world. they just sit back, strip our country and then claim we needed the butt fcuking they just gave us. we have 400 odd thousand out of work. ill bet at least half of them would jump at the chance of a new start.again, these are very idealist ideas and im aware its not quite that simple but this current government is fracturing society more than any previous government has and that includes the previous FF government, they may have been the cause but kenny's lot are the engineers, there's no doubt about that. we need a new way of doing things and we need it asap.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » We use contractors on public works because contractors have the expertise, the equipment, can be taken on for the duration of a single project and have to compete on cost against other contractors.
DamagedTrax wrote: » we have 400,000 unemployed. what is wrong with giving them a chance to gain expertise rather than using, often overseas, contractors? im pretty sure the water system will not be sorted in the time it takes to train people up to that level. if we need experts then we find a few higher level experts from outside, avoiding that is an impossibility i understand.. but hiring in entire crews is more waste. why not focus on building a future instead of patching up an already dead dog?
DamagedTrax wrote: » it might sound ridiculous but we obviously have different situations. whats ridiculous for me, isnt for you and vice versa.. and that kind of discussion should have been going on at the set up of irish water. instead they sorted their own pockets and now appear to be inept at running what they get paid to run. unfortunately IW doesnt cater for any situations except their own financial one. thats my point, we need another way that works fairly for everyone. IW doesnt.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » How do we pay them? How do we pay for equipment? What do we do with the equipment after the project is complete? How do we fire the people we've taken on? I don't think you've thought this through.
Wurly wrote: » Well where are we finding the money to fund Irish Water?
Iwasfrozen wrote: » It's not a matter of caring, we have to make the book balance. Caring can come later. .
Irish Steve wrote: » harsh reality time. Contractors (Irish or overseas) ARE (considerably) cheaper than using state employed labour to do the work, because the total cost of state employed labour is massively higher, when things like index linked defined benefit pensions and other factors (like crazy expenses and allowances just for doing the job) are taken into consideration, and as mentioned earlier, the state employment agencies do not have a good record where things like productivity and sick days and other related factors are taken into consideration. It's been tried, the local authorities were supposedly responsible for the water infrastructure and maintenance of it for the last goodness knows how many years, and their "success" is the reason why water has to be taken out of the political arena. Our state services and political system have utterly and completely failed us in the areas like water, partly through under funding, and partly through appalling mis management, and partly through the jobs for life culture and absence of accountability, so the dead wood never gets pruned out, and slowly but surely rises to the top, and dead wood at the top is a recipe for all manner of wrongdoing and mistakes, as has been so clearly demonstrated over recent times. Add to that the endemic (brown envelope) corruption and graft that's been only touched on over recent years in the courts, and it's no surprise that we are in the mess that we are.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » A fraction of the cost it would take to fix our infrastructure never mind what the other poster is suggesting.
adrian92 wrote: » Why, and how, has this matter causing such division among our people? .
Banjo String wrote: » Not only that, but if (as is being suggested) the Govt will be capping bills for the next 2 years, where's the incentive to conserve water? What was the point in establishing a new quango to rival the hse, if they were just gonna operate on an assessed charge, with no incentive to conserve? I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the Govt just (wrongly) assumed the unwashed plebs would roll over on this one. Concession after concession, loads of carrots on sticks to get people to register, and by the way, if the electorate fall for the propaganda (from John Tierney lol) that 747,000 have signed up, they truly deserve the gouging they'll receive. Personally, I think they might have added a zero to that figure (by mistake obviously) The deadline has been pushed back twice now. I'm sure just for the craic.
