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Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

Iwannahurl

MOD VOICE: So as not to take up room on the helmet thread I have taken out the last few pages of hi vis related material and put it together here. All material or threads relating specifically to hi vis will be moved in here or locked if it repeats what is already said in here. There are a few off topic posts but from now on if we could keep the discussion to Hi Vis, and related topics.

Cram

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar was interviewed by Sean O'Rourke on RTE Radio 1 this morning.

Questions were submitted by listeners, and someone asked whether hi-viz and helmets were to be made mandatory for cyclists.

The Minister's response (paraphrased) was "hi-viz possibly, but the evidence is not great that helmets have a big impact on road safety."

I have mixed views on that response. The situation with helmets has been well rehearsed in this thread -- evidence of modest benefit versus anti-cycling effect of mandatory laws -- but it's odd that the Minister might consider making hi-viz mandatory given that there is no evidence (to date) that it reduces casualties.

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[Deleted User]

RayCun wrote: »

extends to cyclists too though - running into work yesterday, crossing at a pedestrian lights. On my right there's two lanes coming down a hill, lot of cars and vans in the right-hand lane, cyclist using the left lane. He can see me crossing the road, and can see that he won't hit me, but he can't see the pedestrian crossing from the other side and she can't see him either. But hey - it's the bottom of a hill - if he stopped at the red light he'd lose all that momentum :eek:

As usual we've got from actual case of cyclist knocked down by idiot in a car to "cyclists break lights all the time and someone nearly hit someone else this morning" anecdote within about three posts.

You could set your clock by it.

Pinch Flat

CramCycle wrote: »

There are two spots, either side of the back of my head, whereby on hearing this, a dull ache began, presumably in sheer shock at what passes for acceptable levels of intelligence for operators of motorised vehicles in Irish society today.

If ever there's a case for an IQ test, or at the very least an assessment of brain stem function prior to allowing someone behind the wheel, it is this.

RayCun

Deleted User wrote: »

As usual we've got from actual case of cyclist knocked down by idiot in a car to "cyclists break lights all the time and someone nearly hit someone else this morning" anecdote within about three posts.

:rolleyes:
I posted just before that to give out about drivers breaking lights and how much it pissed me off. I will make a mental note that when I think about cars breaking red lights I am not allowed be reminded of the last time I saw dangerous red light breaking, if on that occasion the ****ing idiot was a cyclist. And if I am unable to flush that down the memory hole, god forbid I say it out loud :eek:

Tenzor07

Deleted User wrote: »

As usual we've got from actual case of cyclist knocked down by idiot in a car to "cyclists break lights all the time and someone nearly hit someone else this morning" anecdote within about three posts..

That's how all these types of threads go, didn't you know!

Rambling Man

Tenzor07 wrote: »

That's how all these types of threads go, didn't you know!

I always think this thread should be bright yellow coloured so we can find it easily.

Beasty

Deleted User wrote: »

As usual we've got from actual case of cyclist knocked down by idiot in a car to "cyclists break lights all the time and someone nearly hit someone else this morning" anecdote within about three posts.

You could set your clock by it.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

That's how all these types of threads go, didn't you know!

Rambling Man wrote: »

I always think this thread should be bright yellow coloured so we can find it easily.

And it's part of the reason for confining this sort of stuff to megathreads. That way those posters who have heard it all before can steer clear and we can jump in and tell people to stay on topic when they head off on a tangent like this;)

check_six

Snickers Man wrote: »

Saw a guy knocked off his bike at the junction of Mespil Road and Sussex Terrace this evening.

He was cycling East to West along Mespil Road. Car in front of me was waiting to turn right out of Sussex Terrace on to Mespil Road. Driver was looking mainly to his left (I'm guessing) to look out for traffic coming from the nearby lights into the lane he was looking to turn into. Along comes cyclist. Yes, he had a light on his bike but he was wearing a dark jacket and a dark hat on a
wet night. The driver never saw him and broadsided him as he pulled out.

I saw a similar accident at the same spot a while back. I was waiting to turn right from Sussex Terrace and a taxi squeezed up the left hand side to turn left. A lady on a bike was coming towards us from Mespil Road. I saw her clearly enough. She had a decent front light.

I'm waiting for her to pass, but, as there is no other traffic, and he hasn't bothered to check to his right, or wonder why I'm not moving, the taximan starts to move out. He hits her as she is directly in front of his car and stops immediately. She doesn't get knocked off the bike, and he apologises as she starts off again.

Then he turns to me with this cruel smirk on his face and raised his eyes to heaven as if to say "what's her problem? Jumping in front of my car like that!". I called out to him to say that his observation was just not good enough and that he never looked. His smirking face fell and contorted again into something you might see in a Lord of the Rings movie and he told me to mind my own effing business and drove off.

So he'd made a major error, but he was completely unfazed by his own lack of awareness, blaming the other party immediately. Horrible to see in a "professional" driver.

The lady did have a dayglo yellow tabard, by the way, which you could just make out as she was stopped in front of the taxi.

Iwannahurl

I'm not sure how long the RSA has been running this specific campaign, but today my child brought home a poster from school which featured this immortal verse:

The Hi Glo Silver Pledge
When I walk or cycle, night or day,
after school or when I go to play,
I promise to make sure that I am seen,
in reflective clothing that is bright orange, yellow or green.

According to the RSA's Seatbelt Sheriff website, "Hi Glo Silver's job is to encourage second class pupils [sic] to wear bright or reflective clothes when out walking or cycling."

Meanwhile, in evidence-based territory, a recent and long overdue survey by the Department of Transport found that just 14% of all housing estates nationally have speed ramps, with 30 km/h special speed limits imposed in another 135, or just 1.5% of all housing estates in the country. Dublin city has implemented a 30 km/h speed limit in only three residential areas. Source: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/30kmh-speed-limit-planned-for-housing-estates-30668342.html

The legislation enabling the implementation of 30 km/h Special Speed Limits is a decade old this year.

No prizes, but would anyone like to have a go at writing a ditty like the one above? The aim is to "encourage" Local Authorities to acknowledge the existence of the 2004 legislation, get off their arses, and start implementing this measure which, unlike hivisteria, has been proven to significantly reduce road casualties, especially among children.

tomasrojo

Hi Glo Silver has this bit of advice:

If there is no footpath, walk facing traffic and as far to the right as possible.

That's not right. That's standard advice on a straight stretch, but if you are walking into a blind bend that curves to the right, you really should be on the left, and then switch over once you're round the bend.

On a more general note about Hi Glo Silver:
Does the RSA really expect pedestrians to wear "reflective" (by which I presume they mean fluorescent with reflective stripes) clothing during the day? Do they foresee a future in which most people actually do this? Do they really want primary school children to harrass their parents into dressing like binmen every time they leave the house without car keys?

Cookie_Monster

tomasrojo wrote: »

On a more general note about Hi Glo Silver:
Does the RSA really expect pedestrians to wear "reflective" (by which I presume they mean fluorescent with reflective stripes) clothing during the day? Do they foresee a future in which most people actually do this? Do they really want primary school children to harrass their parents into dressing like binmen every time they leave the house without car keys?

I honestly think they do. I mean how dare you be out on the street if not driving in the first place. And if you are not driving you should be dressed in a stupid colour and it's still your fault if someone runs you over because of their inability to observe properly.

tomasrojo

I find it increasingly difficult to take them seriously.

Pinch Flat

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I honestly think they do. I mean how dare you be out on the street if not driving in the first place. And if you are not driving you should be dressed in a stupid colour and it's still your fault if someone runs you over because of their inability to observe properly.

I subscribe to the road safety authority page on Facebook. They do campaigns from time to time where free lights are given away for sharing safety tips. It's covered elsewhere in this forum.

I checked in tonight and there are 167 comments on the latest free lights campaign. Out of those, there's a huge amount of people requesting cyclists to wear hi vis so they can be seen. I don't have time or the patience to trawl back through each of the comments, but a cursory inspection there's no mention of people requesting motorists watching out for cyclists, regardless of the clothing they're wearing. I even entered a debate there with some numpty claiming that if he hit a cyclist wearing headphones, that he was somehow absolved of responsibility as the cyclist should have heard him coming.

We've created this culture where the responsibility is being quickly shifted from those in the machines that kill several hundred a year to those on bikes that don't. Victim blaming seems to be the norm rather than the exception.

CramCycle

On the way home tonight I passed 3 cars with no lights. I passed 2 cyclists with the same. I seen all of them, in time. I did see two cyclists with lights earlier and more noticeably much like I seen the taxi with hazards on earlier. I noticed the cars with lights on once a line of sight was there, cars with no lights was reduced to approx 25m, may have been further but didn't fully register I think. I also noticed some pedestrians out for walks. Some had hi vis, some didn't, no memorable difference as to when they were seen. One cyclists had hi vis but I did not note this until he passed me and stopped at the lights. I only noticed due to the design, I had overtaken him earlier (memorably bright light) but hadn't noticed the hi vis but then again my car has correctly aligned lights and dimmed in built up areas.

BrianHenryIE

Hunterbiker wrote: »

I think you can contacr the RSA directly either via email or check their facebook page.

Thanks. I'd seen another thread saying people we having trouble getting them this season, but I placed an order on their website at the weekend and it was delivered Wednesday.

The backpack cover will help keep my backpack dry and remove the opportunity for motorists to blame me for their own incompetence.

Leroy42

brian.henry wrote: »

The backpack cover will help ....remove the opportunity for motorists to blame me for their own incompetence.

There is nothing invented in the whole known universe that can do that.

CatFromHue

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I checked in tonight and there are 167 comments on the latest free lights campaign. Out of those, there's a huge amount of people requesting cyclists to wear hi vis so they can be seen.

If it's at night time then this makes sense, day time not though.

hawkwing

Killenaule and Ballingarry used to be fiery one time.

CramCycle

CatFromHue wrote: »

If it's at night time then this makes sense, day time not though.

Are you talking about the Hi-Vis, because that is designed for daytime visibility and identification AFAIK, hence why it is a H&S requirement on sites so operators of heavy machinery notice something that does not fit in with the scenery which may be changing all the time anyway.

CatFromHue

The grey, glass bead strips I think they're called, strips on the hi viz jackets really illuminate when a head light shines on them.

If your hi viz jacket has none or very little of these then they're a waste of time at night and would only be for day time use but the standard one you see guys on work sites use is great at night.

I don't think the difference between hi viz clothing and non hi viz clothing during the day is that much really.

CramCycle

CatFromHue wrote: »

The grey, glass bead strips I think they're called, strips on the hi viz jackets really illuminate when a head light shines on them.

In an urban/built up area though you should be travelling with dips, so only useful in the country.

Also the ones supplied by the RSA last year had to all be recalled as this strip was just grey material with no reflective properties.

That said if everyone used the legally required lights then this would be a non issue, in the countryside they provide a benefit if the reflective material is any use but even then, lights are more essential unless the driver refuses to dim.

CatFromHue

Even with the dips they show up a bit, not to the same degree as full beams but enough to let you know they're there.

Iwannahurl

tomasrojo wrote: »

Does the RSA really expect pedestrians to wear "reflective" (by which I presume they mean fluorescent with reflective stripes) clothing during the day? Do they foresee a future in which most people actually do this? Do they really want primary school children to harrass their parents into dressing like binmen every time they leave the house without car keys?

Recently I saw a reference somewhere to some hi-vis material as being "incandescent".

The RSA seems to be obsessed with hi-vis. Their new CEO, Moyagh Murdock, was on RTE Radio 1, yesterday I think, promoting hi-vis in the context of the latest Slow Down Day, which takes place tomorrow.

We cycle to school every day, but last week my youngest wanted us to go past the school to a car-park approx 1 km further away, in order to participate in Walk on Wednesday. Part of the attraction, it seems, is dressing up in hi-vis. Kids whose parents drive to the car-park, some passing the school on the way, and walk back with hi-vis on are recognised and rewarded. Those who travel on foot, by bike or by bus every day are ignored.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Recently I saw a reference somewhere to some hi-vis material as being "incandescent".

I love it! keeps you visible *and* warm!

buffalo

Iwannahurl wrote: »

We cycle to school every day, but last week my youngest wanted us to go past the school to a car-park approx 1 km further away, in order to participate in Walk on Wednesday. Part of the attraction, it seems, is dressing up in hi-vis. Kids whose parents drive to the car-park, some passing the school on the way, and walk back with hi-vis on are recognised and rewarded. Those who travel on foot, by bike or by bus every day are ignored.

Yesterday was Cycle on Wednesday in my girlfriend's school, or COW day. A few people dressed up in cow onesies - probably more noticeable than hi-vis!

Leroy42

buffalo wrote: »

Yesterday was Cycle on Wednesday in my girlfriend's school

Gee Buffalo, how old exactly is your girlfriend. I mean, were not talking illegal right?

Lumen

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gee Buffalo, how old exactly is your girlfriend. I mean, were not talking illegal right?

No, she's actually a cow.

Would you expect a buffalo to be chasing after a human woman? Ewwww.

Leroy42

Lumen wrote: »

No, she's actually a cow.

Never met her so can't comment on that.

buffalo

She goes to a cow college. In Moo York.

Iwannahurl

Mooving on, I spotted a cyclist yesterday evening in Galway around 5:30. The clocks have gone back, so it was quite dark. Well past lighting-up time anyway.

Helmet on. Hi-vis vest flapping. No lights front or back. Cycling on the footpath. On the wrong side of the roads for his direction of travel.

How to even begin unravelling that mindset?

Cookie_Monster

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How to even begin unravelling that mindset?

In theory it's really simple. Have AGS actually out on the roads enforcing all the laws & educating people on what they are doing wrong rather than just generating money from speeding.

However in practice this will never happen and they also have the mindset that hi-vis is best, you should be in cycle lanes etc for some reason. There is also practically zero enforcement of rules for cars and other traffic so nobody cares at all what goes on on the roads once you're under the speed limit.