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Odhrán

tom_tarbucket

Hi

Does anyone know the meaning of the name : Odhrán

some websites say "dark haired"
others say "little pale green one"

bit of a difference

any help appreciated

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AnLonDubh

Well, to me Odhrán means an animal of grey-brown colour.

tom_tarbucket

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Well, to me Odhrán means an animal of grey-brown colour.

jaysus, right, thanks for input

AnLonDubh

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

jaysus, right, thanks for input

Just checked Dineen's dictionary, yeah, a cream coloured horse. Although I have heard it used to refer to any grew-brown animal. It is an old personal name, couple of hundred years old.

Odhar means anything which is grey-brown. So Odhrán is literally: Little grey-brown thing (although -án always meant a living thing in older forms of Irish)

As a name: Little grey-brown haired guy.

tom_tarbucket

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Just checked Dineen's dictionary, yeah, a cream coloured horse. Although I have heard it used to refer to any grew-brown animal. It is an old personal name, couple of hundred years old.

Odhar means anything which is grey-brown. So Odhrán is literally: Little grey-brown thing (although -án always meant a living thing in older forms of Irish)

As a name: Little grey-brown haired guy.

Thanks, what do you mean by an old "personal " name ?

AnLonDubh

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Thanks, what do you mean by an old "personal " name ?

I assume you are wondering about the "personal" part. It would originally have been the person's entire name.

tom_tarbucket

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I assume you are wondering about the "personal" part. It would originally have been the person's entire name.

yep. thats why I had it in quotes

))

oh right.

Thing is I like the name Odhrán, I dont really like the meaning behind it

hullaballoo

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I assume you are wondering about the "personal" part. It would originally have been the person's entire name.

I know what you mean by this but perhaps you could go into a bit more detail for other people's benefit. It's always interesting reading your more detailed posts.

sword1

Odhran was the name of Saint Patrick s driver /minder as far as I know

AnLonDubh

hullaballoo wrote: »

I know what you mean by this but perhaps you could go into a bit more detail for other people's benefit. It's always interesting reading your more detailed posts.

No problem.

Essentially the name Odhrán dates to at least the 6th century, although spelling variations would suggest it is older (i.e. there was probably a Primitive Irish version of the name).

At this point in time, outside of the nobility, the average person would not have possessed a surname. Their name would at its fullest simply be stated along the lines of "Seán of the people of Duibne", often "of an area/god", but this was not a surname with any legal status or day to day meaning, simply a fact, just as "from Dublin" is not considered part of a person's name today.
An individual would have only been known as Odhrán, nothing more.

Patronymic additions began to be used in the 800s, things like:

Seán Mac Aodha (with Aodh in the genitive) Seán, Aodh's son.

However these were not hereditary, again simply a fact (i.e. Seán was Aodh's son) and not invariant across the same generation, as Seán's brother could easily have been:

Seosamh Ó Séadna = Seosamh, Séadna's grandson. With Séadna being Aodh's father, let's say.

Irish surnames formed during 900-1200 during a time when Brehon law expanded and reorganised (this was contemporary with the reorganisation of the Bardic orders).

tom_tarbucket

Thanks for above AnLonDubh........interesting

How would you pronounce Odhrán ?

Woukd it be

1. Simply Oran ( like start of Oranmore in Galway )

2. owed-ran

3. owed-raw-n

sword1

Owe-ran

tom_tarbucket

sword1 wrote: »

Owe-ran

So same as number 1 ; )

sword1

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

So same as number 1 ; )

No, I would pronounce the dh like w

Aard

I know of at least one person who pronounces his name as Odd-run. I do not advocate this!

AnLonDubh

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

How would you pronounce Odhrán ?

I've uploaded it here:
http://www.forvo.com/word/odhr%C3%A1n/

dubhthach

Aard wrote: »

I know of at least one person who pronounces his name as Odd-run. I do not advocate this!

Newstalk have a contributor (economics?) who pronounces his name as Odd-ran, it always reminds me of the bould Manchán and how his name is mispronounced as well.

With spelling reform Odhran can be spelt as Oran today. Word internal -dh- / -gh- would have been prononunced in Middle Irish and probably during the middle ages (I'm not actually sure when they became silent)

Of course in Old Irish the d (later -dh-) in Odran would have been pronounced that the "th" in this. (/ð/ voiced dental fricative), it's only really after the Old Irish stage that we see it merge with 'gh' when it comes to phonological value.

dubhthach

AnLonDubh wrote: »

No problem.

Essentially the name Odhrán dates to at least the 6th century, although spelling variations would suggest it is older (i.e. there was probably a Primitive Irish version of the name).

At this point in time, outside of the nobility, the average person would not have possessed a surname. Their name would at its fullest simply be stated along the lines of "Seán of the people of Duibne", often "of an area/god", but this was not a surname with any legal status or day to day meaning, simply a fact, just as "from Dublin" is not considered part of a person's name today.
An individual would have only been known as Odhrán, nothing more.

Patronymic additions began to be used in the 800s, things like:

Seán Mac Aodha (with Aodh in the genitive) Seán, Aodh's son.

However these were not hereditary, again simply a fact (i.e. Seán was Aodh's son) and not invariant across the same generation, as Seán's brother could easily have been:

Seosamh Ó Séadna = Seosamh, Séadna's grandson. With Séadna being Aodh's father, let's say.

Irish surnames formed during 900-1200 during a time when Brehon law expanded and reorganised (this was contemporary with the reorganisation of the Bardic orders).

Excellent post, but I would contest the date of 800 as earliest for Patronymic, we have several examples of use of in archaic Irish (ogham) where formula is "X MAQI Y" (x son of Y)

Obviously you see alot in the form of "X MAQI MUCOI Y" (X son of the "tribe" Y), as well as some that are "X MAQI Y MAQI MUCOI Z" (X son of Y of the "tribe" Z).

There's also the use of "AVI" for Uí in ogham.

It's probable though as you mentioned that the form "X of tribe Y" was dominant means of expressing oneself in the pre-christian period.

Obviously though as you mention these aren't surnames in our modern sense of word, modern Icelanders follow basically this practise still, as you mentioned Irish surnames really become fixed from 9-10th century onwards,

An gal gréine

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Thanks for above AnLonDubh........interesting

How would you pronounce Odhrán ?

Woukd it be

1. Simply Oran ( like start of Oranmore in Galway )

2. owed-ran

3. owed-raw-n

Awe-rran would be my take of how it's said in Donegal.
Awe an....for Eoghan...just for comparison.

AnLonDubh

I've put Odhrán, the word it is based on "odhar", and that word's genitive "oidhre" up on Forvo, I hope that helps:

http://www.forvo.com/user/AnLonDubh/

There would be a difference pronunciation for Odhrán in Cork, with the á being very heavy and long sounding, I had that originally, but I've changed it to the Kerry one here as the Cork one is very particular to the dialect.

AnLonDubh

dubhthach wrote: »

Excellent post, but I would contest the date of 800 as earliest for Patronymic, we have several examples of use of in archaic Irish (ogham) where formula is "X MAQI Y" (x son of Y)

Obviously you see alot in the form of "X MAQI MUCOI Y" (X son of the "tribe" Y), as well as some that are "X MAQI Y MAQI MUCOI Z" (X son of Y of the "tribe" Z).

Oh you are right, this is what I meant by "outside of the nobility". I believe all these individuals were noble (please correct me if I am wrong).

By the way, Primitive Irish has a very odd look to it. It somewhere between Latin and Irish. Some of the earliest texts contain a transition stage between Primitive and Old Irish known as Archaic Irish, which is interesting to look at. Examples in Amra Choluim Chille.

dubhthach

Well there's some debate that Italic and Celtic formed a "paragroup" within western Eurasian dialects of Proto-Indo-European. Some people rubbish the idea but they do seem closer related to each then either to Germanic.

Closest written language to Archaic Irish is probably Gaulish (apart from the sound-shift of kw -> p), it also shows the lack of Goidelic sound shift of V/W -> f
Vindos (proto-Celtic) -> Find (O. Irish) -> Fionn
In Brythonic this sound shifted to "gw", thence gwen/gwyn and fionn are cognates.

Good example in Ogham is: VELITAS -> Filed (o. Irish) -> File (m. Irish)

Still Latin is a good analogy, the language of Ogham stones is to modern Irish what the inscription on the Arch of Titus is to modern Italian