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Child Item

remove that niqab or leave!

Hitchens

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2799981/woman-thrown-paris-opera-cast-refused-perform-unless-removed-muslim-veil.html

Fair play to the cast of the opera and the security people for upholding the law.

Hopefully, we would do the same here!

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Defender OF Faith

fedor.2. wrote: »

It doesn't really bother me what a person chooses to wear, and I agree that a lot, perhaps the majority, of Muslim women choose to wear this particular garment, of their own free will.

However, a lot of Muslim women do not wear it of their own free will, they are pressured by a male dominated culture to do so. To not comply with this has led to countless cases of horrendous physical abuses, even deaths.

And for what? So a group of insecure men can feel safe in the knowledge that nobody can eye up their property or be led astray by the sight of a bit of skin.

Everyone here knows the point of that outfit and to deny that you do a disservice to the people who have risked, and continue to risk, their lives fighting oppression, of women in particular, in SOME sections of the Muslim world.

I posted this video earlier but I think you missed it you may find it interesting! as it deals with what I highlighted in your comments & to see what Muslim women think as well.

seenitall

I used to have a different opinion to the one below, but I've changed my mind recently.

The niqab is a message, saying: This human being is someone's property and they are entitled to not have their property gawked at by any old Joe Soap.

In a civilised country, no human being, however brainwashed into compliance or submission, is anyone else's property, and laws of civilised countries should reflect that consensus. Otherwise the message in that society is: yes, we know that there are human beings living amongst us who are oppressed and considered less than others by virtue of their gender, however this has nothing to do with us, these people are not our people, not our problem, and therefore seeing the symbol of their oppression in our public spaces is A-OK and completely acceptable.

That attitude is not cohesive or in any way laudable IMO. If even the supposedly most enlightened countries would not lead the way in saying: no thank you, not in our midst because this is wrong, then there is less chance, not more, in anyone challenging the status quo "from within".

As pointed out earlier, I don't think it's even an Islamic thing, it's a "cultural" thing. I know a fair few Muslims, and used to go out with one. None of whom would dream of shrouding themselves or others around them in black sheets in the name of god.

beercr8te

I seen enough of it while working in England, I would love to see a law brought in to make the veil illegal, like it's been done in France. I don't like governments dictating how we dress, but this veil is a form of repression and piss taking which must be defeated, I'm no left or right winger by the way.

The Diabolical Monocle

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I posted this video earlier but I think you missed it you may find it interesting! as it deals with what I highlighted in your comments & to see what Muslim women think as well.

What .. all 6 of them.
From the highly reputed source that is youtube.

The sole function of these veils is concealment of identity.

Like blacked out car windows, which are also banned in other places.

People rightly associate individuals in their presence hiding their personal identity with the threat of crime.
Simply because being hidden benefits criminals.

(which, to give another auto example, is why we have reg plates, oh but the driver isn't harming anyone tyrannical to make him/her identify oneself in public)

French society made it known that the veils were making people uncomfortable, - you would have thought that would be enough, 1 job ... dont needlessly conceal your identity in public areas, as for everything else society has to offer ... go nuts, eat drink and be merry in this lawful peaceful place.

But non, and so the people, uncomfortable enough and in enough numbers passed a law. And good on them.

Nino Brown

Why is everybody so focused on the moral issue of Muslim women wearing a niqab, that is not the issue here. The French banned face coverings for security and social cohesion reasons, And I agree with that.
I don't like people with their faces covered, many of our social interactions are based on facial expressions, I would not be interested in having any sort of meaningful conversation with somebody with their face covered, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.
I also don't trust people with their faces covered, if somebody knocked on your door, and you look out and their face is covered would you answer?
Would you buy something expensive from somebody hiding their face? Lets say you went to buy a car and the guy was wearing a balaclava would you be okay with that?
That is the issue here, the French banned full face coverings in public places, including wearing hoods up with scarfs, and balaclavas, for security and social cohesion reasons. This women broke that law, but was not punished, just politely asked to leave the building or conform with the law.

seenitall

Nino Brown wrote: »

Why is everybody so focuses on the moral issue of Muslim women wearing a niqab, that is not the issue here. The French banned the niqab for security and social cohesion reasons, And I agree with that.
I don't like people with their faces covered, many of our social interactions are based on facial expressions, I would not be interested in having any sort of meaningful conversation with somebody with their face covered, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.
I also don't trust people with their faces covered, if somebody knocked on your door, and you look out and their face is covered would you answer?
Would you buy something expensive from somebody hiding their face? Lets say you went to buy a car and the guy was wearing a balaclava would you be okay with that?
That is the issue here, the French banned full face coverings in public places, including wearing hoods up with scarfs, and balaclavas, for security and social cohesion reasons. This women broke that law, but was not punished, just politely asked to leave the building or conform with the law.

Yes, that's all fine and I'd have no quabble with it, I don't feel it's acceptable to go around with your face covered up all the time either - uncomfortable is also the word I'd use.

My above post is coming from a different angle to that because that is the angle that holds more interest for me as a woman.

Nodin

Nino Brown wrote: »

Why is everybody so focused on the moral issue of Muslim women wearing a niqab, that is not the issue here. The French banned face coverings for security and social cohesion reasons, And I agree with that.
...........

It was banned because of Sarkozys party leaking votes to Le Pen.

NotASheeple

bluewolf wrote: »

that's mental
jesus, she's not harming anyone

So much for "no it's to protect them really"

I think we all know it's nothing got to do with 'protection'.

Timberrrrrrrr

fedor.2. wrote: »

Ya ya ya

What a well thought out reasonable response :rolleyes:

Timberrrrrrrr

fedor.2. wrote: »

It doesn't really bother me what a person chooses to wear, and I agree that a lot, perhaps the majority, of Muslim women choose to wear this particular garment, of their own free will.

However, a lot of Muslim women do not wear it of their own free will, they are pressured by a male dominated culture to do so. To not comply with this has led to countless cases of horrendous physical abuses, even deaths.

And for what? So a group of insecure men can feel safe in the knowledge that nobody can eye up their property or be led astray by the sight of a bit of skin.

Everyone here knows the point of that outfit and to deny that you do a disservice to the people who have risked, and continue to risk, their lives fighting oppression, of women in particular, in SOME sections of the Muslim world.

There are women in ALL sections of society who are told what to wear and who are made to feel as if they are the property of men, they are told where to go and what to.do and also face horrendous physical abuse so please stop making out that this is a womens issue when anyone can see for some in here it's a Muslim/Islam thing.

fedor.2.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What a well thought out reasonable response :rolleyes:

You didn't say anything that required a well thought out response

Timberrrrrrrr

fedor.2. wrote: »

You didn't say anything that required a well thought out response

Close the computer,

Go outside,

Meet someone who isn't Irish and have a conversation

It will open up whole new worlds for you.

IvyTheTerrible

Nodin wrote: »

It was banned because of Sarkozys party leaking votes to Le Pen.

I remember reading somewhere that at the time of the bringing in of the ban, there was a maximum of 1000 women in France wearing the niqab, out of 65 million people living in France. It's not a major issue, it was brought in as a political smokescreen.

chatperche

UnitedWeStand wrote: »

So it becomes a pathetic game of tit for tat then? Its amazing how some people think our culture is the best in the world, which to be fair it probably is thanks to democracy, free speech and freedom to practice beliefs without persecution - But they then miss the whole point of our culture and believe we should act how the cultures they despise as a way of treating muslims. Countries such as Saudi Arabia or "Muslim country" as you as you state broadly. These countries have yet to evolve proper democracy's free from local religious boundaries. It will take a lot of them time.

Don't treat ordinary Muslims in a childish "payback" way for the way a select few Middle Eastern governments act. "We wouldn't get away with that over there!" is a very tame, underdeveloped and underthought way of viewing things.

I don't think ordinary Muslim wear the niquab in fairness. The vast majority of French muslim come from (or their parents) Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco were they would have worn possibly the veil but not the niquab. In my experience the ones wearing the niquab are much more towards the extrement that your 'ordinary' muslim.

The other law people on this forum seem to be confused with is the ban on ostentatious religious signs in a republican building, such as a school. That doesn't specifically target the muslims, it's everyone, large crucifix, kippas...

chatperche

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Was there a vote?

The vote was when the French electorate DEMOCRATICALLY elected their government and gave them the mandate to enact laws such as the ban of face covering!

Timberrrrrrrr

chatperche wrote: »

The vote was when the French electorate DEMOCRATICALLY elected their government and gave them the mandate to enact laws such as the ban of face covering!

Our government was DEMOCRATICALLY elected, they have decided that we should pay for water, Thousands are refusing to pay, does that make the government right or wrong?

chatperche

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have been to France many times and i just asked a colleague of mine who sits a short distance away, He is from Marseilles and his reply was Meh!

Well I stand corrected then. A colleague from Marseille and a few trips to France you are clearly very knowlegeable on the fabric of the French society and the integration (or lack of) problems. So what did you thinks of no go areas like Villeurbanne and the Seine Saint Denis when you visited them?

Timberrrrrrrr

chatperche wrote: »

Well I stand corrected then. A colleague from Marseille and a few trips to France you are clearly very knowlegeable on the fabric of the French society and the integration (or lack of) problems. So what did you thinks of no go areas like Villeurbanne and the Seine Saint Denis when you visited them?

It was more than a few trips but lets not get bogged down in what you think you know about me :rolleyes:

so because i have not lived in these areas i am not allowed to have an opinion in a debate on a discussion forum?

chatperche

end of the road wrote: »

not fair play to these bigoted racist vermin at all. hopefully such bigoted racist filth never happens in a modern thinking country like ireland. we've moved on

Wow, so French are bigoted racist vermin no less.

That comment in itself isn't racist at all!

Teyla Emmagan

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It was more than a few trips but lets not get bogged down in what you think you know about me :rolleyes:

so because i have not lived in these areas i am not allowed to have an opinion in a debate on a discussion forum?

Of course you're entitled to an opinion. However the fact half this thread is full of your opinions means they're becoming pretty tiresome.

chatperche

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Our government was DEMOCRATICALLY elected, they have decided that we should pay for water, Thousands are refusing to pay, does that make the government right or wrong?

People refusing to pay clearly have a poor grasp of democracy. If the government ELECTED by the majority of people who moved their @rse and bothered voting passes a law then that's it.That's what they were elected for. It's not some dictatorship where Fianna Gael took power and unilaterally decided to create Irish Water! That's the law of the land. If you disagree go to the polls the next time and hope your candidate is elected.

Timberrrrrrrr

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Of course you're entitled to an opinion. However the fact half this thread is full of your opinions means they're becoming pretty tiresome.

The unfollow button is at the bottom of the page or alternatively feel free to put me on ignore.

chatperche

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Of course you're entitled to an opinion. However the fact half this thread is full of your opinions means they're becoming pretty tiresome.

Exactly. And there is a difference between having an opinion and pontificating.
By all means have an opinion but stop preaching when you don't know all the elements.

chatperche

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It was more than a few trips but lets not get bogged down in what you think you know about me :rolleyes:

so because i have not lived in these areas i am not allowed to have an opinion in a debate on a discussion forum?

Well yeah sorry, I would like to think I know more than you about the problems my country is facing. But, true I could be wrong. After all you are an international expert having been to France, Saudi Arabia ...

stunmer

Nino Brown wrote: »

Why is everybody so focused on the moral issue of Muslim women wearing a niqab, that is not the issue here. The French banned face coverings for security and social cohesion reasons, And I agree with that.
I don't like people with their faces covered, many of our social interactions are based on facial expressions, I would not be interested in having any sort of meaningful conversation with somebody with their face covered, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.
I also don't trust people with their faces covered, if somebody knocked on your door, and you look out and their face is covered would you answer?
Would you buy something expensive from somebody hiding their face? Lets say you went to buy a car and the guy was wearing a balaclava would you be okay with that?
That is the issue here, the French banned full face coverings in public places, including wearing hoods up with scarfs, and balaclavas, for security and social cohesion reasons. This women broke that law, but was not punished, just politely asked to leave the building or conform with the law.

This is an excellent post and really sums up my thoughts on the issue. One thing I would point out is how the majority of the posts so far in the thread talk about the niqab wearers rights and how they should be allowed to wear what they want and how it doesn't directly affect anybody. What is correctly brought up in the post above is how my rights are affected when someone decides to conceal themselves in public places. I have the right to be able to see people faces around me.

Also my hearing is reasonably bad so I need to read peoples faces to try understand what they are saying. If someone has their face concealed it is next to impossible to understand what they are saying.

Timberrrrrrrr

chatperche wrote: »

Well yeah sorry, I would like to think I know more than you about the problems my country is facing. But, true I could be wrong. After all you are an international expert having been to France, Saudi Arabia ...

Oh the irony :rolleyes:

chatperche wrote: »

Exactly. And there is a difference between having an opinion and pontificating.
By all means have an opinion but stop preaching when you don't know all the elements.

Timberrrrrrrr

stunmer wrote: »

This is an excellent post and really sums up my thoughts on the issue. One thing I would point out is how the majority of the posts so far in the thread talk about the niqab wearers rights and how they should be allowed to wear what they want and how it doesn't directly affect anybody. What is correctly brought up in the post above is how my rights are affected when someone decides to conceal themselves in public places. I have the right to be able to see people faces around me.

Also my hearing is reasonably bad so I need to read peoples faces to try understand what they are saying. If someone has their face concealed it is next to impossible to understand what they are saying.

So if you are walking down the street next week on a cold morning and there is a woman wearing a hat and scarf that covers most of her face you have the "right" to demand she removes them?

stunmer

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So if you are walking down the street next week on a cold morning and there is a woman wearing a hat and scarf that covers most of her face you have the "right" to demand she removes them?

As mentioned previously on this thread:

A hat and scarf are functional items of clothing in cold weather

chatperche

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Oh the irony :rolleyes:

Why because I am posting on an Irish website or replied to your comment on water charges?
At least I've been here for over a decade so my understanding of the Irish society is a bit more legit than yours of the French one. And as for your comments on Irish Water the concept of an elected government passing laws is pretty much the same in most democratic countries. It's hardly rocket science.

Timberrrrrrrr

stunmer wrote: »

As mentioned previously on this thread:

Yet you still claimed

when someone decides to conceal themselves in public places. I have the right to be able to see people faces around me.

So you only have the right when it suits you? What if someone gets off a motorbike and is queuing for an atm? Should you be able to demand they remove it?